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Post by bridge2nowhere on Nov 21, 2015 15:38:04 GMT -8
Incorrect bridge2nowhere... The frogs that the .088" wheels have trouble with meet the industry/NMRA standards No, they don't. Don't you get it? What I understand that the majority of customers don't have track that meets industry standards, and a smart manufacturer doesn't want to sell a product that won't work on substandard track. I'm fine replacing wheels, but it doesn't mean I have to be happy about it. If things were as you say, we would still be operating pizza cutter flanges with hook and loop couplers. It has always been the "minority" supporting manufacturers that offer the newer, more accurate models that have moved us beyond those days.
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Post by atsfan on Nov 21, 2015 16:02:35 GMT -8
I don't want nor need narrow wheels. Glad Scale Trains is staying away from them.
Of course that does not mean I want "pizza cutter flanges".
Scale Trains seems smart thankfully.
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Post by curtmc on Nov 21, 2015 17:11:33 GMT -8
And many including myself believe that these days the "minority" that has wanted more accuracy and better detail (and which has led to those past improvements) now includes a much smaller (but overly vocal) minority subset who wants the details and sizes to be pushed too far (to a point that negatively affects operations and durability too much, and where past improvements instead led to betterment or no impact).
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Post by bridge2nowhere on Nov 21, 2015 17:29:06 GMT -8
LOL, read an old MR and you'll see the same arguments used against RP-25 flanges, Code 70 rail, injection molded models, even Kadees. Fortunately, their "beliefs" had little impact on the direction of the hobby.
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Post by curtmc on Nov 21, 2015 18:05:23 GMT -8
I have read many old MRs - going back 42+ years now - and don't recall any such complaints about code 70 rails or RP-25 flanges...
It has only been the last 15 years or so that extreme detail fans/fanatics/freaks have emerged... And what did we get for it? Athearn Trinity 5161's where they had to go back and redo the car ends to make them Kadee compatible... Many Atlas cars that the traditional and reliable #5 coupler cannot be easily put into... And many versions of scale, semi-scale, and other weaker couplers and couple boxes that have reduced the size of operational components to the point that they commonly fail in prototypical 50+ car length trains.
To me the pinnacle of the hobby for several manufacturers was about 2000 and I hope to see ScaleTrains and other newer manufacturers keep the .110" treads and Kadee coupler compatibility found back then - or else I believe the smaller (too small) treads and couplers will leave them in the same boat Atlas is in where they are having to redo cars back to that norm.
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Post by bridge2nowhere on Nov 21, 2015 18:48:00 GMT -8
I have read many old MRs - going back 42+ years now - and don't recall any such complaints about code 70 rails or RP-25 flanges... It has only been the last 15 years or so that extreme detail fans/fanatics/freaks have emerged... And what did we get for it? Athearn Trinity 5161's where they had to go back and redo the car ends to make them Kadee compatible... Many Atlas cars that the traditional and reliable #5 coupler cannot be easily put into... And many versions of scale, semi-scale, and other weaker couplers and couple boxes that have reduced the size of operational components to the point that they commonly fail in prototypical 50+ car length trains. To me the pinnacle of the hobby for several manufacturers was about 2000 and I hope to see ScaleTrains and other newer manufacturers keep the .110" treads and Kadee coupler compatibility found back then - or else I believe the smaller (too small) treads and couplers will leave them in the same boat Atlas is in where they are having to redo cars back to that norm. So you admit you're about 15 years behind where the hobby is? No, there have aleays been those pushing the limits of the day. Read more of those old MR's and you'll see. Then there are the modelers, like me, who seek to emulate them. And manufacturers who see that eager market and make products for them to buy. Sometimes it doesn't pan out, but most do. And the hobby is better for it. What do we get for it? Couplers that actually look like real couplers (and work fine, even on long trains). Wheels that look a little less toylike (and work just fine on decent track). Details that look like real details, not a generic blob. Single road models accurate to the prototype number. A manufacturer pushing the envelope is making a product that will be relevant, and in demand, for years to come.
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Post by curtmc on Nov 21, 2015 19:12:06 GMT -8
I'm not 15 years behind the hobby (which in some respects was better off - especially on pricing - 5-12 years ago). I just understand the economic realities that drive it.
LOL... Do you remember New Coke? Or are you too young to remember that "innovation" that "pushed the envelope"?
There is no guarantee to that in model trains either... A manufacturer making a narrow tread width wheel that somebody new to the hobby (with less than perfect trackwork) has trouble with may never sell another car to them - bad for that manufacturer AND for the hobby.
Some manufacturers learned their lessons on the thinner wheels (and went back to the standard ones). And learned that they can make more money off the detail fanatics willing to pay more for the thinner replacements too. I know people who stopped buying Atlas and Athearn cars when they tried the thinner treads - and went back when those manufacturers went back to the standard. I know people who traded away the 0.088" wheels. I saw people selling them at shows. I knew one guy who got so frustrated at them (and a certain manufacturer) he GAVE the thinner wheels (which he called defective) away.
I have cars with .088" and even a few with .064" and they do look better - but only close up... A person observing them broadside from 4 feet away can't tell whether they have 0.110", 0.088" or 0.064" treads - until they have an issue and derail.
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Post by bridge2nowhere on Nov 21, 2015 19:40:40 GMT -8
LOL. New Coke? Wow
I'll say it again. You're making the same arguments made for pizza cutters and hook and loop couplers.
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Post by elfan on Nov 21, 2015 20:15:51 GMT -8
You two guys are funny,and you kept it civil while making your points...kudos! Fact of the matter is,to me at least,is your both right!
Tom
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Post by curtmc on Nov 21, 2015 23:40:52 GMT -8
vtr310, N scale is not an option for many modelers due to eyesight, hand problems etc... Nobody says you can't have more or finer details on your HO models. The economic reality is that with manufacturers shying away from doing thin wheel treads if you want them you are going to have to add them yourself.
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Post by atsfan on Nov 22, 2015 7:02:40 GMT -8
LOL, read an old MR and you'll see the same arguments used against RP-25 flanges, Code 70 rail, injection molded models, even Kadees. Fortunately, their "beliefs" had little impact on the direction of the hobby. The direction of the hobby is not thin wheels. A few diehards will convert to them, but overall they arent worth it to most. You keep bringing up pizza cutter flanges which is a bogus argument. Do you think because 3D TV has not caught in that everyone wants to go back to black and white rabbit ears If you want thin wheels buy them and use them. Leave the majority who dont alone.
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Post by Christian on Nov 22, 2015 7:52:21 GMT -8
Except how could it be a track problem if the track meets the industry standards? If track meets NMRA track standards there are no issues with code 88 wheels. If a company, Atlas, weasels out of the standards then, of course there are issues. Atlas track standards go way back into the fifties when flanges were deep and treads were tin plate sized. Putting Atlas track components against an NMRA gauge shows the problems which take seconds to fix. Of course NEM standard equipment will then fall off the track. Yeah, I know. Clubbers have problems with 88's. And all sorts of free standing detail. Like grabs and brake wheels. ScaleTrains has an Operator series just for that sort of minimal appearance. My beef is calling something "Rivet Counter" and especially "Museum" and supplying fat wheels. NOTE: there are significant clubs which commonly run 88 and even 64 wheels with no problems. La Mesa and Sipping Society to mention two. All it takes is a bit of commitment to better track. I know that that commitment isn't going to happen in lots of clubs. And, I know I'd join the noise for 110 wheels if that sort of club was my only railroad modeling outlet. TRUTH IN POSTING NOTE: I'm not made of cash. I only spend money to put 88's on open ended cars. Tanks, hoppers and the like. I've done one locomotive, but it wasn't worth the appearance payoff.
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Post by bnsf971 on Nov 22, 2015 8:14:29 GMT -8
My thoughts on the wheels, not that anybody asked: Maybe put them on the ultra-detailed cars, where the people that most likely would want them, would have them. The mid-and-lower range cars would get the "standard" wheels, and those users could add them after purchase. That upgrade is as simple a DIY project as you can get. Newer is not always better. Remember the Ford pickups with the 6 liter diesel engines? Remember the Cadillac 8/6/4 engine? Remember Windows Vista? Remember plasma televisions? Remember hydrogen-filled lighter-than-air craft? All those things seemed like a good idea at the time--then reality set in. For a new startup company, sticking to known reliable parts for their initial offering is a wise choice.
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Post by notabob on Nov 22, 2015 8:29:24 GMT -8
I'd like to see the thread go back on topic. Wheel tread discussion should really be taken to another thread.
I'm curious how many ended up pre-ordering just to support the new company, even if they didn't necessary need any of the offerings.
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Nov 22, 2015 8:40:22 GMT -8
I'm curious how many ended up pre-ordering just to support the new company, even if they didn't necessary need any of the offerings. I'm not that generous. I preordered something I've wanted for 50 years or more and couldn't afford. I do hope ScaleTrains.com succeeds. I'm impressed by their grasping of the 'operator' concept I've been advocating for years, if you are operating a decent sized railroad with decent length trains the super detail is not needed. Quality, accurate, durable cars are what we need to be a railroad modeler vs a model railroader.
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Post by TBird1958 on Nov 22, 2015 9:07:27 GMT -8
I'd like to see the thread go back on topic. Wheel tread discussion should really be taken to another thread. I'm curious how many ended up pre-ordering just to support the new company, even if they didn't necessary need any of the offerings. I really like what ScaleTrains is doing, initially however none of their announced projects interest me. The closest they got was was the Evans car, which doesn't look nearly as good as the Atlas version available at a similar price. I'm on their email list and am hoping that I can buy something as cool as the Turbine from them in the future.
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Post by bdhicks on Nov 22, 2015 9:12:49 GMT -8
I do find it odd, from a purely naming standpoint, that operator level cars have plastic couplers.
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Post by riogrande on Nov 22, 2015 9:54:19 GMT -8
Brian, I understand your feelings on the operator cars with plastic coupler's since operators often experience issues with them and switch to metal KD's to mitigate those problems. For the kits, it makes sense if the goal is to keep costs as low as possible but operator - metal KD's are worth the extra dollor or so it would add to the cost. I am so glad that companies like Intermountain, ExactRail and Tangent have switched to KD only couplers - thats a lot of cars I don't have to switch out.
I too really like what ScaleTrains is doing but nothing presently is needed but I'll definitely be keeping my eye on future releases and hope there are items.
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Post by D Bradley on Nov 22, 2015 9:57:37 GMT -8
I've preordered bout 20 of the Operator series TILX tank cars
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Post by TBird1958 on Nov 22, 2015 12:24:00 GMT -8
Some nicely priced Bethleham 100 ton hoppers would work for me
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Post by calzephyr on Nov 22, 2015 12:37:22 GMT -8
Just put my order in for 2 Turbines and a tender set. Now, if I understand things correctly, I'll be notified before my card is charged. Right? You need to go on line at Scale Trains and select the Turbine to preorder on or two or three or how many you want. There is no CC yet until you get the email to notify you it is ready to ship. Larry
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Post by riogrande on Nov 22, 2015 13:09:59 GMT -8
Some nicely priced Bethleham 100 ton hoppers would work for me Sound of Hall and Oats: I can go for that~!
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Post by eh49 on Nov 22, 2015 13:39:15 GMT -8
Just put my order in for 2 Turbines and a tender set. Now, if I understand things correctly, I'll be notified before my card is charged. Right? You need to go on line at Scale Trains and select the Turbine to preorder on or two or three or how many you want. There is no CC yet until you get the email to notify you it is ready to ship. Larry Under payment method you have to select "Pre Order"
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Post by jaygee on Nov 23, 2015 4:36:42 GMT -8
I find myself wondering just where these guys will go, when they discover passenger cars.
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Post by calzephyr on Nov 23, 2015 6:39:10 GMT -8
You need to go on line at Scale Trains and select the Turbine to preorder on or two or three or how many you want. There is no CC yet until you get the email to notify you it is ready to ship. Larry Under payment method you have to select "Pre Order" I believe that is the case. I ordered one Turbine and got confirmation that my order is in without giving any CC information at this time. That would lead me to think they will require a CC after I am notified it is ready to be shipped or shortly prior to shipping. I don't think they are free. The video showed the shells of the units in China being manufactured and looking rather nice with paint and lettering. It brings up the question to my thoughts, how long does it take to build a model like the turbine after the engineering is completed and the go ahead is given. We are told they will be available in a few months. This model is so exciting that I can't wait for the next major model that Shane might offer. Larry
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Post by jaygee on Nov 24, 2015 6:03:52 GMT -8
Given the rather advanced state of the model development, and assembly, as shown...I suspect a major part of the wait now will be the delivery of the electronics. Notice that the tender sets will arrive ahead of the locomotives....and I imagine this is why. I had the LHS contact Loksound about a turbine package for the Athearn Veranda a couple days ago, and "it" was not out of the oven yet.
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Post by jonklein611 on Nov 24, 2015 7:17:06 GMT -8
Under payment method you have to select "Pre Order" I believe that is the case. I ordered one Turbine and got confirmation that my order is in without giving any CC information at this time. That would lead me to think they will require a CC after I am notified it is ready to be shipped or shortly prior to shipping. I don't think they are free. The video showed the shells of the units in China being manufactured and looking rather nice with paint and lettering. It brings up the question to my thoughts, how long does it take to build a model like the turbine after the engineering is completed and the go ahead is given. We are told they will be available in a few months. This model is so exciting that I can't wait for the next major model that Shane might offer. Larry Let's use Rapido as a comparison (because they are one of the few that issue pre-production schedules for stuff and they are using similar production methods (maybe the same factory?)): This was for the APT-E: 24 June 2014 Product lauch and 3-D scan July 2014 Finish designs with input from the original APT-E design and conservation teams. August 2014 Start cutting steel moulds. 22-23 November 2014 Exhibit first samples at the Warley Exhibition December 2014 - April 2015 See samples in person at Locomotion the National Railway Museum at Shildon. 4-6 April 2015 See final pre-production samples at York Model Railway Exhibition. 30 April 2015 Final order deadline. Reserve your APT-E with locomotionmodels.com by this date or miss your chance! Autumn 2015 Delivery of production models.
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Post by mlehman on Nov 25, 2015 7:34:05 GMT -8
That's probably a ballpark estimate for actual production time. The bigger question is getting one's place in line at the start of the process. I suspect ST.com has made those arrangements if you're seeing shells in production already.
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Post by espeenut on Nov 25, 2015 15:22:40 GMT -8
...well, after a bit of mental dithering, my fingers hit all the necessary keys to have a turbine placed on pre-order, I'm getting the rivet counter with sound, number 14. Now I just have to get my brain to reconcile what my fingers just did...
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