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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on May 16, 2016 21:16:38 GMT -8
Think about it. With all the many different rollingstock out there that can be done from older to modern how is it that many times two different manufactures jump on the same exact model like this one, the Trinity 64' Reefers FMC boxcars, etc etc etc. Two different companies just happen to think up the same exact model and produce it is not a coincidence. I think it is inside knowledge and then a race begins for whatever reason. I may be wrong but it happens far too often to be coincidence. Then there are many times a manufacturer simply copies a release of another manufacture but I am talking about the times that the same models from different manufacturers are only months apart. Now when it comes to the locomotives that is a different beast because the demand for a same engine but from different companies is still there. All the F units, ES44AC, Big Boys and SD70ACes all have a chance to get some of the money pie.
Tangent will sell their Airslide cars straight out for the standard price of about $44.95 per car while you will likely not see that price or lower for a rivet counter Airslide from Scaletrains.com. It may be built just as nice but I highly doubt that it will be far superior than the Tangent since Tangent releases very very good models! So it will simply come down to price for the people who do want them. That is who is going to get most of the money pie on this model. Some model railroaders will even prefer to get the Walthers model over both of them but it is not going to be big sales because many model railroaders simply have to buy the newest stuff to hit the market, so tons of model railroaders will NOT go running out to get their hands on a bunch of old Walthers Airslides models now. I do not want to hear that there are "Slight variations" in different road numbers either. They are the same exact car. Just because you buy a Ford F150 crew Cab and someone else gets a Ford F150 standard cab they are not different brands and models. They are BOTH Ford F150's with different options. If someone buys a Ford F150 Crew cab with leather seats and another person buys the same model but without leather seats, they are both still the same model trucks! The Airslides from Tangent, Walthers and now Scaletrains are ALL the same car with a few different options added, removed or placed im different locations. But at the end of the day they are both Ford F150's.
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Post by riogrande on May 17, 2016 3:46:21 GMT -8
I've decided to update my Walther's airslide fleet which is not a sizeable collection compared to other cars with Scale Trains/Tangent cars. But as I study the the Scale trains operator version the price is good but what I don't like is they leave the grabs off, this for me is a deal breaker, I'm OK with cut levers and what ever other special details are left off, but no grabs leave the car looking naked. I see they will offer detail add on sets in the future but I would rather pay a little bit more for the grabs to be factory installed. If they go in the direction they are headed will you be able to open the car up to neatly glue the grab from the inside and then I still have to try to match there paint. So what do other people think about this. Right now I don't think I would buy a Air Slide that needs to have all the grab installed since I have more than enough to do as it is with my very limited hobby time. I still have four Walthers 2-bay Air Slides (SP, SSW, BN, WP) that will fill the roll for the present. I have found if I can glue grab irons or other parts from the inside with something like Tenax 7R and a small Brush, that greatly simplifies the task and also makes it much less likely that any glue will be visible on the outside of the model. Paint matching is something I can do but again, I have plenty to vie for my hobby time right now that I don't want to add to the to-do list.
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Post by wp8thsub on May 17, 2016 11:15:44 GMT -8
...But as I study the the Scale trains operator version the price is good but what I don't like is they leave the grabs off, this for me is a deal breaker, I'm OK with cut levers and what ever other special details are left off, but no grabs leave the car looking naked. I see they will offer detail add on sets in the future but I would rather pay a little bit more for the grabs to be factory installed. If they go in the direction they are headed will you be able to open the car up to neatly glue the grab from the inside and then I still have to try to match there paint. So what do other people think about this. That echoes my thoughts. Cars with cast-on details at least look complete. The Operator cars, thanks to the missing grabs and other details, plus the lettering omissions, just look unfinished. If you care to run cars with a finished appearance, the amount of work and money needed to prepare an Operator model for service largely negates the value of the reduced initial cost. There's also the plastic coupler replacement issue, as I think they're using the same couplers as the kits. As for matching paint, Scale Trains uses Tru-Color paint, so matching should be relatively easy.
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Post by stottman on May 17, 2016 12:43:58 GMT -8
...But as I study the the Scale trains operator version the price is good but what I don't like is they leave the grabs off, this for me is a deal breaker, I'm OK with cut levers and what ever other special details are left off, but no grabs leave the car looking naked. I see they will offer detail add on sets in the future but I would rather pay a little bit more for the grabs to be factory installed. If they go in the direction they are headed will you be able to open the car up to neatly glue the grab from the inside and then I still have to try to match there paint. So what do other people think about this. That echoes my thoughts. Cars with cast-on details at least look complete. The Operator cars, thanks to the missing grabs and other details, plus the lettering omissions, just look unfinished. If you care to run cars with a finished appearance, the amount of work and money needed to prepare an Operator model for service largely negates the value of the reduced initial cost. There's also the plastic coupler replacement issue, as I think they're using the same couplers as the kits. As for matching paint, Scale Trains uses Tru-Color paint, so matching should be relatively easy. Thats if the lots match.
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Post by riogrande on May 17, 2016 13:15:32 GMT -8
My guess is ST believes there may be enough customers who's budgets limit them from the Rivet Counter series and they would be willing to take the time to install the details/grab irons for the lower cost. Only time will tell if that's really true.
It seems over the past 10+ years that RTR has been strongly dominating and even people with limited budgets, including myself, would rather buy a few well detailed cars rather than have a larger number requiring assembly with lots of fine detailed parts. It hasn't escaped me that there is a vocal category of modelers who want kits to be available, and certainly it's good to have kits available.
Easy to build kits like the ST 50' box car should be popular enough since they aren't difficult to assemble and get on the layout but model's requiring grab irons in the past have tended to draw complaints - think Walthers for example - many of their otherwise RTR passenger and freight cars still needed those pesky grab irons installed. So adding finer details may reduce the popularity of an offering. It will be interesting to see.
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Post by espeenut on May 17, 2016 14:49:04 GMT -8
I think it will depend on the type of car. On the Airslide hoppers there are a lot of very visible parts on the rivet counter cars as opposed to the operator series, whereas on the new tank cars the only glaring difference between them in terms of fiddly bits is a few grabs on the end frames and more undercarriage brake gear and air lines, which always find a way to fall off due to even gentle handling on the club layout where these will be used - hence the name of this series, operator. I know you have to add the hazard placard signs but in my case I had a bunch of them on hand already. As for the conspicuity markings, well, it's my railroad and I don't model the time period that had them. And before you all beat up on me regarding the time period of these new tankers because they include the end plates, yes they do and again, it's my railroad and I like these new Operator Series cars. The price difference alone between them - the operator series being almost half of the rivet counter - allows me to do a small unit oil train that is affordable, something that can't be said using HO scale tank cars from any other maker now...
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Post by talltim on May 18, 2016 8:27:03 GMT -8
Is the Operator version the same as the Rivet Counter, but with some of the separately applied parts left off? I can understand the economics of doing that, creating another set of molds with cast-on handrails probably costs nearly as much as the cost of fitting the extra parts.
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Post by scl1234 on May 18, 2016 8:47:48 GMT -8
Is the Operator version the same as the Rivet Counter, but with some of the separately applied parts left off? It's a bit more than just parts. From what I gather reading the threads on Scale Trains, for some models it's as if they only used 2/3 of the "Rivet Counter" decals on the "Operator" versions...specifically missing conspicuity stripes and perhaps the car number not being on each end of the car like it is(?) on the "Rivet Counter" version. I don't yet own any ST equipment as I've confined my recent purchases to pre-1972 motive power/rolling stock regardless of who manufactures it.
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Post by talltim on May 18, 2016 8:55:20 GMT -8
Ok, but leaving lettering details off doesn't require any costly extra molds. Even fitting cheaper couplers only requires one extra set of moulds, the cost of which is spread over all the Operator range
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Post by wp8thsub on May 18, 2016 9:29:02 GMT -8
Is the Operator version the same as the Rivet Counter, but with some of the separately applied parts left off? Sorta but not entirely. The basic car is the same, and indeed some of the stand-alone details are omitted, including grabs, brake components, etc. Operator cars use trucks without rotating roller bearing end caps, and have plastic couplers instead of metal (on the tank cars, this also means the Rivet Counter cars receive shelf couplers, while the Operator vesions do not). Compare the Trinity tank cars: Rivet Counter above www.scaletrains.com/collections/rivet-counter-ho-trinity-31k-crude-oil-tank-car/products/copy-of-ho-trinityrail-31k-crude-oil-tank-car-tilx ... ...and Operator www.scaletrains.com/collections/operator-trinity-31k-crude-oil-tank-car/products/new-ho-trinityrail-31k-crude-oil-tank-car-tilx-350649 . The Operator version does without some of the small lettering on the ends and end frames, has no placard information, much of the brake detail under the car toward the B end isn't there, anti-skid coating atop the car is missing, no grabs on the end frames, no cut levers, no air hoses. In addition, the Operator uses plastic end shields, and top and end platforms, while the equivalent parts on the Rivet Counter are metal (including etched see-through grating where appropriate). The hazmat placards are billed as separate parts on the Rivet Counter and "integrated" on Operator. Various items mentioned on the Rivet Counter and not on the Operator include, "Finely detailed tank saddles with defect card holders," "Handbrake housing with finely detailed wheel and chain," "Underbody outlet valve and chain detail," and "Sturdy metal anti-personnel rods." So... the Operator car not only omits a bunch of stuff, some of the parts are of cheaper quality. Unless you rip the thing apart, it's not really possible to upgrade it to the same level as the Rivet Counter. It's easy to come away with the impression the Operator version just has less, so you can save money now and upgrade it later. If the tank cars are any indication, that isn't truly the case.
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Post by talltim on May 19, 2016 12:25:47 GMT -8
Thanks for the detail. Personally I'm a rivet counter sorta guy anyway. Your description fits what I was thinking, that the main molding is common between the versions, so the chances of cast on grabs etc on the Operator version are slim.
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Post by sp8299 on May 19, 2016 14:08:50 GMT -8
Ok, but leaving lettering details off doesn't require any costly extra molds. But it does incur additional printing pads and printing passes.
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Post by sp8299 on May 19, 2016 14:09:56 GMT -8
Thanks for the detail. Personally I'm a rivet counter sorta guy anyway. Your description fits what I was thinking, that the main molding is common between the versions, so the chances of cast on grabs etc on the Operator version are slim. Or none.
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Post by drolsen on May 21, 2016 7:13:35 GMT -8
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2016 17:37:21 GMT -8
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Post by drolsen on Aug 8, 2017 20:01:15 GMT -8
I received my two ADM 4566 cuft Airslides yesterday - they are absolutely stunning models. These are my first ScaleTrains products, and I can't wait to see the carbon black cars. The underbody detail on these Rivet Counter Airslides is incredible. I had always planned to try upgrading one of the old Walthers models (based on the smaller 4180 cuft car), but I never could have achieved this level or quality of detail myself. Thanks for producing this much-needed prototype, ST!
Dave
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Post by jbilbrey on Aug 9, 2017 15:28:03 GMT -8
I received my two ADM 4566 cuft Airslides yesterday - they are absolutely stunning models. These are my first ScaleTrains products, and I can't wait to see the carbon black cars. The underbody detail on these Rivet Counter Airslides is incredible. I had always planned to try upgrading one of the old Walthers models (based on the smaller 4180 cuft car), but I never could have achieved this level or quality of detail myself. Thanks for producing this much-needed prototype, ST! Dave The MoPac 4566 Cu. Ft. Airslide was the first ScaleTrains product that I bought for myself [the Evans boxcar that I picked up for my son as a Christmas Gift doesn't count], and I couldn't agree with you more. These ST Airslide's blow the old Walther's cars out of the water; there is simply no comparison between the two. I'm glad that we are now seeing up-to-date models of the it and the Tangent 4180 Cu. Ft. hopper to go with the other super-detailed products that we are now seeing from the likes of Athearn [Genesis], Atlas, Tangent, ST, and other quality manufacturers. It also gives me a chance to push some of my lesser-detailed, older cars down to my son as he graduates from Thomas to more scale-like models. James Bilbrey LaVergne, TN
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2017 4:50:14 GMT -8
I received my operator 4180 models a few weeks ago. Very nice cars, even without all the extra details and grabirons, except for the two plastic ones on the roofwalk, the detail is packed on especially underneath. You get a real value with the operator models. I can see all the little holes for the add on parts that I'll add in the future. It'll make for some fun winter cold weather modeling once summer is over as i don't expect those parts to be in until then. The model is not bare by all means, theirs still lots of added parts, even the airline that runs from the retainer valve to the B end is in place. The add on part for this airline,airhose plus glad hand will be an add on part in the future. The BN cascade green is smooth and flat, the white lettering is opac clean and clear, i can read the small print without a magnify glass, even the cots label is legible without magnification.
Looking forward to more of these, hopefully in Milwaukee road ( yellow crosses fingers), CNW and milling companies!
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Post by riogrande on Aug 10, 2017 5:04:13 GMT -8
I definitely want to add some ScaleTrains Airslide hoppers but no funds available for a few months yet. Definitely on my to-do list when I get caught up.
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Post by roadkill on Aug 10, 2017 7:26:42 GMT -8
I definitely want to add some ScaleTrains Airslide hoppers but no funds available for a few months yet. Definitely on my to-do list when I get caught up. Same here. I could use a Chessie or two .
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Post by bar on Aug 10, 2017 10:16:40 GMT -8
A friends hosts op sessions on his exquisite layout full of scratchbuilt structures and rolling stock. I asked him what he does when someone breaks something. "I just say, 'F--k it,"he said.
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Post by nsfantodd on Aug 10, 2017 17:15:42 GMT -8
For sure. It isn't that I don't want ST Airslide, but I don't see the point of replacing my Walthers Airslides with Operator version. I will choose Rivet Counter when I do buy, but since most rolling stock I want to buy is in the $35-$50 range, I can't afford much of it, so as usual, I am playing catch up on models that I don't have funds for when they are out for sale. The usual! My budget has gotten bigger in recent years but the price of rolling stock has gone up proportionally so basically I'm in the same boat I was 5 or 6 years ago. Go figure. Not that I'm complaining! I agree! I was hoping to buy a couple... unfortunately they only did NS in the Operator version...so no need to dump my Walthers and buy the ST version. Todd
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