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Post by Donnell Wells on Sept 11, 2012 13:05:12 GMT -8
(I *borrowed* these from Trainorders...     )      |
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Post by theengineshed on Sept 11, 2012 14:57:40 GMT -8
Very nice!  Interesting price comparison: Bachmann UK are releasing the Blue Pullman, a OO scale model of comparable size to HO equipment. It is a six car set, consisting of two, three car sets, each of the three cars being different. So you basically have three different passenger car length molds, same as the Metroliner, so tooling costs might be comparable. The Bachmann RRP is 350 British pounds or about $560 dollars. There is only one power car, but it comes with DCC and similar lighting specs to the Metroliner. The non-sound Metroliner RRP is $169. Multiply that by 6 and you come to a whooping $1014. The Metroliner has the added cost of six pantographs, the metalized finish, and all those motors. Maybe that adds up to an extra $500? ;D The Blue Pullman is discounted on-line at about 85% RRP, and coming this way across the Atlantic, VAT gets deducted which is a whooping 20%, but it isn't fair to hold VAT against the Metroliner. The Metroliners are nice, but pricey. I can't help but think there is going to have to be some deep discounting going on at some time in the future to get a return on the tooling... |
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Post by antoniofp45 on Sept 11, 2012 19:11:57 GMT -8
I must say "WOW!" What a beauty! The body detailing appears prototypically accurate and it's good to see that the class lights and number boards are going to be functional. I wonder if the center light over the door will be a working Gyra-light? The the spacing between the fluting pleats is accurate as well. This is an excellent improvement over the 1970s Bachmann Metroliners and Walthers deserves a Thumbs Up. Now (typical me, of course) I wish that these were offered in an undecorated version. I'd enjoy Alcladding a set of these units in a 1969 Penn Central version!  ! I realize that with the "Pennsylania version" set I could likely remove the keystone heralds and replace them with the "worms". On the front end the Keystone herald is on the "Fireman's side" while the worm would go on to the "Engineer's side". If there is a "shadow" remaining, the area could be blended in with Alclad2. Yes, I know, a number of you might say "Why in the world would you Penn Centralize that?!" (Ok, Paul, go ahead and chew me out). But as I've stated before, Penn Central is what I remember as an elementary school kid in NY before moving down to the sunshine state. Plus the Metroliners' revenue service started under Penn Central's flag and a number of the units continued to wear their worms during the early Amtrak era. But, imho, if Walthers has them metalized (plated) with the same formula that was applied to the EL Capitan cars, they will look very realistic as that plating resembles stainless steel that has some aging. During the 1970s, while some of the Metros displayed a brilliant sheen (when washed of course) a number of them displayed quite a bit of wear and tear. I'm looking forward to seeing the finished product! |
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Post by calzephyr on Sept 12, 2012 10:53:39 GMT -8
I must say "WOW!" What a beauty! The body detailing appears prototypically accurate and it's good to see that the class lights and number boards are going to be functional. I wonder if the center light over the door will be a working Gyra-light? The the spacing between the fluting pleats is accurate as well. This is an excellent improvement over the 1970s Bachmann Metroliners and Walthers deserves a Thumbs Up. Now (typical me, of course) I wish that these were offered in an undecorated version. I'd enjoy Alcladding a set of these units in a 1969 Penn Central version! ! Yes, I know, a number of you might say "Why in the world would you Penn Centralize that?!" (Ok, Paul, go ahead and chew me out). But as I've stated before, Penn Central is what I remember as an elementary school kid in NY before moving down to the sunshine state. Plus the Metroliners' revenue service started under Penn Central's flag and a number of the units continued to wear their worms during the early Amtrak era. But, imho, if Walthers has them metalized (plated) with the same formula that was applied to the EL Capitan cars, they will look very realistic as that plating resembles stainless steel that has some aging. During the 1970s, while some of the Metros displayed a brilliant sheen (when washed of course) a number of them displayed quite a bit of wear and tear. I'm looking forward to seeing the finished product! Antonio That is great you got to see them in PC and I can understand why your memories of those days make that a natural selection for you. They do look nice! Larry |
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Post by atsfan on Sept 12, 2012 12:06:59 GMT -8
Keys will be plating quality and the black rubber holding in the window>
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Post by shoofly on Sept 12, 2012 12:28:29 GMT -8
I must say "WOW!" What a beauty! I'd enjoy Alcladding a set of these units in a 1969 Penn Central version! ! PC metroliner decals due next month Chris |
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Post by mlehman on Sept 12, 2012 12:50:59 GMT -8
OK, I'll admit it, I like PC stuff, too. I was a little older than Antonio, but who cares about the business side? It was like a rolling flea market of every old piece of rolling stock and motive power in the Eastern US. And I liked the logo, as irritating as I know some found it.
OK, back in the closet and we resume our usual Rio Grande programming...
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Post by antoniofp45 on Sept 13, 2012 2:16:39 GMT -8
Shoofly, thank you for that news! At last, those worms will be available. In the past when I was working on my Bachmann Metros I contacted a couple of decal makers and asked about the production of Metro decals. Understandably, the costs were high as a minimum number had to be produced and sold to be worth it and of course how many of us had strong interest in modeling PC Metros then? --------------------------------------------- I admit that the price of these new Metroliners is a bit of a kicker for me. But after I read the posts on previous threads regarding what a manufacturer has to invest on tooling/mold costs/shipping/ and then "hope" to make a profit on the new model, I think it's understandable. The prototype Metros, from what I've read, usually ran in 4 car and 6 car sets back in the day. So 4 non-sound units at $169 each (if that is the accurate price) will cost just under $680. Right? One detail that did catch my attention on the demo model above is the number housing over the vestibule door should be a clear glass. But perhaps we may see that on the finished model. I'm assuming that the interior will be unpainted. Hopefully taking one of these apart won't be too difficult for access. A painted interior populated with passengers would be impressive as these trains often ran full during the rush hour. |
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Post by theengineshed on Sept 13, 2012 3:14:56 GMT -8
The prototype Metros, from what I've read, usually ran in 4 car and 6 car sets back in the day. So 4 non-sound units at $169 each (if that is the accurate price) will cost just under $680. Right? If you click on the Product Listing tab, the RRP is listed: www.walthers.com/exec/page/metrolinerIMO, Walthers should have sold the Metroliners in pairs with a single motor or other changes like selling quad sets to keep costs down. Here's a Bachy video of the Blue Pullmann that is coming towards the end of the year, full interior, table lights, all the underframe detail. |
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mecu18b
Full Member
My doctor gave me six months to live, but when I couldn't pay the bill he gave me six months more.
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Post by mecu18b on Sept 13, 2012 3:58:08 GMT -8
Very nice! Interesting price comparison: The Metroliners are nice, but pricey. I can't help but think there is going to have to be some deep discounting going on at some time in the future to get a return on the tooling... Im guessing you havent heard but Walthers has cut the profit margin to dealers. Therefore you wont be seeing much of a discount if any at all. Dealers who discounted 20% will make just a buck or 2 on the car. The profit is so low it wont pay to order these. The price will come down only when Walthers is sitting on them...... |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2012 7:32:10 GMT -8
Im guessing you havent heard but Walthers has cut the profit margin to dealers. Therefore you wont be seeing much of a discount if any at all. Dealers who discounted 20% will make just a buck or 2 on the car. Even big discount house M.B. Klein is only offering 20% off list. So a $170 Metrochooch will be priced at $136. That's not too much off the old MSRP. The profit is so low it wont pay to order these. I've seen a noticeable decrease in the stock of the latest and greatest Walthers Proto models at Klein's. There is a definite lack of Walthers new Proto on E-Bay. It used to be when the new stuff was released it would flood onto e-Bay. Not so, since the new reduced dealer discount went into effect. The price will come down only when Walthers is sitting on them...... Anyone waiting for Walthers to drop the price in a blow out sale, my just miss out and if they really really really want to have that model....may be forced to pay a king's ransom for the sold out items. Currently, Walthers brings no stock or a very small amount of stock over dealer pre-orders. This results in models being completely sold out before the ship even sails from China. The days of Walthers sitting on stock for months at their warehouse in Milwaukee is over. The Proto line seems to be going in the direction of brass. If you don't have a reservation, your chances of getting a model is slim. |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Sept 13, 2012 7:33:55 GMT -8
Antonio, Did thou summon me? Ok, before I start, will someone explain Photo #5 to me? Is that supposed to be some weird double-arm Faiveley pantograph? None of the other photos show the 2nd arm at all, so I'm kinda at a loss to understand what that photo is of. Not to mention the lack of fluting on the lower half that none of the other photos have... theengineshed, Remember with Bachmann that they are their own factory. These days, Bachmann is cranking out product at cheaper prices than their competitors after basically taking over the only other large manufacturer of trains and then telling everyone else to go elsewhere to get trains made. The point is that Bachmann right now is in a position of strength and is using that leverage to undercut their competition. The brand new Amfleet cars from Walthers are $120 each. If there were five "dummy" Metroliners to be had using the Amfleet prices, that's $600. Add the powered car at $170, and it's $770. So the better comparison to the Bachmann OO Blue Pullman train set is their $560 vs. a one-power-car Metroliner at $770. The "extra" $210 is $35 per car. Not too unreasonable, depending on production size. And considering that there's probably a bigger market in Britain for the "Blue Pullman" than the Metroliner in the USA, and well, I can see why the Metroliner is priced the way it is. If one wants to question why every Metroliner is powered and thus is more expensive than it needs to be, then I would agree that it's overpriced. But otherwise, it's not too bad in today's market. Antonio, Heh. Why would you want to metalize these? Looking at these pre-production pics, they are already in PC black! ;D While we NH fans realize that PC = Evil, even I get that some people might have some fond memories of it in their youth (IMHO, mainly because they didn't know any better...  ). If PC ever had a "glory day", it was in Metroliner service, so I get the appeal for that. Everything else is a mystery to me. mlehman, What I don't understand is why folks who model PC because of it's motive power and car fleets won't model April 1st, 1976 (or later) and the formation of Conrail. Everything that PC had, Conrail got (for the most part), plus AA, E-L, RDG, CNJ, L&HR, LV, etc. So take PC, add color, and you get CR. And Conrail at least had some good times later on. PC, other than the Metroliner and the TurboTrain, really didn't. |
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Post by mlehman on Sept 13, 2012 10:27:47 GMT -8
SNIP mlehman, What I don't understand is why folks who model PC because of it's motive power and car fleets won't model April 1st, 1976 (or later) and the formation of Conrail. Everything that PC had, Conrail got (for the most part), plus AA, E-L, RDG, CNJ, L&HR, LV, etc. So take PC, add color, and you get CR. And Conrail at least had some good times later on. PC, other than the Metroliner and the TurboTrain, really didn't. Yes, I've noticed that myself, as I wouldn't touch Conrail with a 10-foot pole as a modeler, although Conrail turned out to be really quite a success as a railroad IMO -- compared to PC anyway I think there's a nostalgia for the RRs that made up PC. I know many older modelers tend to be either Pennsy or NYC fans, but I think younger folks who modeled the Eastern RR scene kind of like the idea of an excuse to run NYC and Pennsy stuff together, which the PC certainly was. When Conrail came along, people wowed by PC really wanted to stay there and those who thought CR was great didn't want to remember PC. But I'm certainly no expert on Eastern modeling appetites. I've got a few pieces of PC rolling stock, as having that looking new kind of sets the era for my version of the D&RGW. Others may have a better explanation. My favorite PC memory is seeing 4 or 5 first gen Geeps across the fields from my aunt and uncle's farm, struggling up the hill from Switz City to get to Worthington and on to the powerplant in Indy with a long string of battered hoppers that would make many a museum proud to own today -- OK maybe not hoppers that BEAT up... That's a LONG way from Metroliners ;D |
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Post by antoniofp45 on Sept 19, 2012 14:22:01 GMT -8
Hey Paul, ;D
Yep, I just couldn't resist. Good one on these units already in "Penn Central Black", lol! But I thought about it and I really believe that had the Metros not been fluted stainless steel Budd units, PC would have likely painted them in their green scheme. (I'm glad that didn't happen!)
One bugger that Jim has pointed out is that Walthers imports a smaller amount of stock over dealer orders than in the past. So it seems that unless one preorders, the chances of obtaining these units are slim unless you're going to wait for some to "hopefully" show up on ebay. Even then there's no guarantee that you'll get them at decent prices. It's as Jim mentions, harkening to the days of highly anticipated brass models.
On another note, it just hit me how before a friend of mine was laughing about how sometimes we put a hard effort to spruce up and detail low budget models to make them look realistic because no one was producing an accurate version. I've been working on my Bachmann HO Metros for a long stretch, on and off. Then, "Ta-Dah!" Walthers announces the Metroliner. Of course, I'm happy but at the same time I thought "Ok, after years of suggestions....years of the standard 'It won't sell, it's low in demand' attitude..........NOW you guys decide to do this!" 
I guess I'll put the 1970s Bachmann ladies on the back burner for now and continue focusing on the classic Budd and Pullman Standard units:
Antonio, Did thou summon me? Ok, before I start, will someone explain Photo #5 to me? Is that supposed to be some weird double-arm Faiveley pantograph? None of the other photos show the 2nd arm at all, so I'm kinda at a loss to understand what that photo is of. Not to mention the lack of fluting on the lower half that none of the other photos have... theengineshed, Remember with Bachmann that they are their own factory. These days, Bachmann is cranking out product at cheaper prices than their competitors after basically taking over the only other large manufacturer of trains and then telling everyone else to go elsewhere to get trains made. The point is that Bachmann right now is in a position of strength and is using that leverage to undercut their competition. The brand new Amfleet cars from Walthers are $120 each. If there were five "dummy" Metroliners to be had using the Amfleet prices, that's $600. Add the powered car at $170, and it's $770. So the better comparison to the Bachmann OO Blue Pullman train set is their $560 vs. a one-power-car Metroliner at $770. The "extra" $210 is $35 per car. Not too unreasonable, depending on production size. And considering that there's probably a bigger market in Britain for the "Blue Pullman" than the Metroliner in the USA, and well, I can see why the Metroliner is priced the way it is. If one wants to question why every Metroliner is powered and thus is more expensive than it needs to be, then I would agree that it's overpriced. But otherwise, it's not too bad in today's market. Antonio, Heh. Why would you want to metalize these? Looking at these pre-production pics, they are already in PC black! ;D While we NH fans realize that PC = Evil, even I get that some people might have some fond memories of it in their youth (IMHO, mainly because they didn't know any better... ). If PC ever had a "glory day", it was in Metroliner service, so I get the appeal for that. Everything else is a mystery to me. mlehman, What I don't understand is why folks who model PC because of it's motive power and car fleets won't model April 1st, 1976 (or later) and the formation of Conrail. Everything that PC had, Conrail got (for the most part), plus AA, E-L, RDG, CNJ, L&HR, LV, etc. So take PC, add color, and you get CR. And Conrail at least had some good times later on. PC, other than the Metroliner and the TurboTrain, really didn't.
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Post by sd80macs on Sept 19, 2012 16:57:05 GMT -8
The brand new Amfleet cars from Walthers are $120 each. Where did you see the New Amfleets at $120 each? The only ones for $120 are the Deluxe Limited Special Edition that come with lighting and figures installed and are limited to 350 6 car sets for 2 trains. According to this www.walthers.com/exec/page/amfleet they are $74.98 each retail or by the new walthers discount shops pay anywhere from $52.49 to $47.24 depending how many they order as the discount varies with qty purchased. 1-11 30% off 12-23 30% + 5% off 24+ 30% + 10% off So I see the Amfleets at around $60 - $65 at most discount shops. |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Sept 20, 2012 6:15:06 GMT -8
sd80macs,
D'oh! Sorry, I guess I just saw the Amfleet cars and saw the prices at $120 but didn't read that these were the ones with the figures and lighting. My bad.
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Post by rapidotrains on Sept 20, 2012 11:36:44 GMT -8
You can't really compare the Walthers pricing with Bachmann pricing.
1. Bachmann is a vertical company. It is owned by Kader, which also owns the factories. The tooling and production costs are much lower than for an American company that outsources production.
2. The UK market is a lot larger than the US market, despite the fact that the US has five times as many people. And the Metroliners have a limited appeal as they only ever ran in the northeast.
Model railways are a way of life in the UK.
If we had the same kind of interest in railways here in North America, we would have far more preserved and tourist trains, far more railway museums, and far more affordable models.
-Jason
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Post by nw611 on Sept 20, 2012 14:13:00 GMT -8
Jason, what you said about the UK (model railways as a way of life) applies also to Germany, Switzerland and maybe Holland, but prices in these countries are much higher. I don't understand how prices are so good in the UK compared to continental Europe. Ciao. Raffaele
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Post by calzephyr on Sept 20, 2012 15:34:12 GMT -8
You can't really compare the Walthers pricing with Bachmann pricing. 1. Bachmann is a vertical company. It is owned by Kader, which also owns the factories. The tooling and production costs are much lower than for an American company that outsources production. 2. The UK market is a lot larger than the US market, despite the fact that the US has five times as many people. And the Metroliners have a limited appeal as they only ever ran in the northeast. Model railways are a way of life in the UK. If we had the same kind of interest in railways here in North America, we would have far more preserved and tourist trains, far more railway museums, and far more affordable models. -Jason Jason You are correct about the enthusiasm in the UK for both model trains and preserved tourist lines. I got to ride several of the steam preserved lines the late 1994 to 2000 time frame while working in the UK on several trips there. During one of my trips to Birmingham UK, they were holding a model train show at their National Expo near the airport and I got to attend that show. Bachmann was big at that show with many of their products for the UK and the EU. Larry |
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Post by theengineshed on Sept 20, 2012 15:53:05 GMT -8
Sure I can compare, you just don't have to agree. True, but Bachmann UK have stated that they have to compete for factory time too, so it isn't that simple. Besides, Kader has to compete at the factory level as well, so Walthers can't be that disadvantaged. Hornby are introducing new coaches to a very high standard, pre BR stock with limited appeal, painted in teak finish, with a RRP of around $70. That's about what Walthers charges for their current crop of coaches. Six RRP $70 coaches is $420, throw a motor in and you are not that far from the $560 for the Blue Pullman, but a long way from a $1014 six car Metroliner set. Population wise there is 1:5 ratio, Model Rail (UK) has a circulation of ~30K, Model Railroader about 140K. I'd question the "lot larger". Remember the Blue Pullmann was only around for a decade, only ran on a few routes, and at $560 isn't exactly a train set purchase. All those discerning Brit modellers, many of whom are modern image, aren't exactly going to rush out and purchase something that disappeared 40 years ago. Again, not that different from a NE prototype under the wires for 25 years. They are both somewhat limited in appeal, required three coach sized tools, some wires, a motor (or six!)... As to the whole why are UK models so inexpensive compared to the rest of Europe? German stuff has always been pricey, the market will charge what the market will bear. Limited market size comes into play I suppose, but there is affordable European rolling stock, not at Walthers Metroliner prices. Walther's always had a penchant for flogging German rolling stock, so maybe there is a connection there. They should have been selling UK. I still believe that Walthers is missing an opportunity here, unless there is some deep discounting, I just can't imagine the Metroliners selling well to the masses. Hell, I would have bought a set, but not at these prices. Geez, you need at least four, and if you want to commit to a set, it is deluxe, and they charge you even more than the single unit price per car !  I apologize for sending this topic cascading off course... ;D |
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Post by antoniofp45 on Sept 20, 2012 18:34:35 GMT -8
.................... you need at least four, and if you want to commit to a set, it is deluxe, and they charge you even more than the single unit price per car ! ;D Goes back to my thought on another thread as to why I'm excited yet very frustrated with this. You are charged more for a set in a scheme (Pennsy) that the prototype didn't run in revenue service! Did Walthers produce the Pennsy version to appeal to Pennsy fans and collectors? Was it out of concern that possibly the mere view of a "Penn Central" version could hurt potential sales, inspite the fact that the Metros became very popular during the rocky PC period? Were prototype modelers considered as even during the Amtrak period a number of PC decorated units were mixed in with Amtrak schemed units? On other forums there are modelers interested in the PC version but are willing to settle for whatever they can get. I realize that "awing" about this issue won't accomplish anything, even though I'm a potential customer. My consolation (thanks to Shoofly) is that I would be able to nix the Keystones and replace them with worms should I be able to obtain the Pennsy set at a discounted price. The Amtrak units will be easier to access since they won't be sold in 4 car sets, YET to convert the Amtrak units to PC would be MUCH MORE work due to the painted window row and cab end. So the choice would be: Cough up the money and order the Pennsy set, then get the worm decals from Microscale. Or, buy the Amtrak version and either be happy with it or strip it and refinish it to the PC stainless version. |
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Post by islandmodelworks on Sept 21, 2012 13:07:59 GMT -8
Ok, before I start, will someone explain Photo #5 to me? Is that supposed to be some weird double-arm Faiveley pantograph? None of the other photos show the 2nd arm at all, so I'm kinda at a loss to understand what that photo is of. That is a Stemmann pantograph and was used on some of the Metroliners. NJ Transit still uses them on the Arrow III's. |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Sept 23, 2012 16:59:02 GMT -8
Thanks, islandmodelworks! I wondered about that. I'm somewhat amazed that Walthers will be offering two kinds of pans on these.
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Post by rrsounds on Sept 25, 2012 22:16:24 GMT -8
The 31 Metroliner coaches, PRR/PC/Amtrak #800-830, all had Westinghouse electrical equipment with Stemmann double-arm pantographs. The 20 Snack Bar Coaches #850-869 and 10 Metroclub parlor cars #880-889 were equipped by GE, and featured the same single-arm Faiveley pantograph GE had used on PRR's E44 electric freight locomotives.
I think it's great that Walthers has gone to such detail, even so far as inluding minor roof details associated with the pantographs that many would never notice. For example, the vertical insulator to the front right of the pantograph represents a lightning arrestor, and the plunger-looking stick at the left front of the pantograph is the pneumatic groundng device.
My only complaint is that their pantographs themselves are slightly toy-like. Some European models of electric locomotives have more realistic pantographs. But considering the amazing detailwork elsewhere, I don't think many people will notice or care.
Kind Regards,
David Reaves
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! 
). If PC ever had a "glory day", it was in Metroliner service, so I get the appeal for that. Everything else is a mystery to me. 
