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Post by stolengold on Jan 23, 2017 17:39:14 GMT -8
I understand that such work is going to cost a fair amount, and I am prepared for that - but what I really need are some recommendations for reputable custom paint service providers who are going to do a professional job (IE, no muffed lines or smudged paint) in a semi-timely manner (so I'm hopefully not waiting a full 12 months). I want to purchase an Atlas H16-44 and have someone transform it into one of the old CP pac-man road freight locomotives, which will likely mean stripping whatever paint it comes in, priming, painting, applying decals, and then weathering. Can anyone help me out with a name or two I could approach for a quote? Many thanks.
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Post by el3672 on Jan 23, 2017 19:07:07 GMT -8
roachcustompainting.com..... does great work. Mark is a regular on here. however seems his site might be closed for now.
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Post by princessofthecape on Jan 23, 2017 21:55:33 GMT -8
roachcustompainting.com..... does great work. Mark is a regular on here. however seems his site might be closed for now. It sucks, because I was just there today thinking "man, this guy does some nice work!" No dice. :[
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Post by talltim on Jan 24, 2017 4:50:50 GMT -8
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Post by ambluco on Jan 24, 2017 8:43:40 GMT -8
Good luck emailing or calling him. No responses.
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Post by ambluco on Jan 24, 2017 8:44:14 GMT -8
It was a sad day when he closed. roachcustompainting.com..... does great work. Mark is a regular on here. however seems his site might be closed for now.
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Post by princessofthecape on Jan 24, 2017 12:20:04 GMT -8
I am the OP, by the way - for some reason, when I first logged in, it prompted me to create a new handle... then, the second time, allowed me to access the old one.
So... so far we seem to be 0-for-2, since southerntier doesn't answer emails (which is something I'd like to avoid)? It's funny, because you'd think there'd be several prominent names out there. I cannot be the only person who is squeamish about painting locomotives.
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Jan 24, 2017 15:31:52 GMT -8
The new take it out of the box and run it, has by and large driven the custom painter out of business. Many that used to paint have given up the trade due to demand and just a loss in interest of working on everybody's models and not really getting any real enjoyment in the hobby. In plan simple words.....model trains have become another job and the pay stinks too boot. Everybody wants the perfect paint job, but back away from the cost that a painter wants to make that perfect paint job. Some charge on an hourly basis, but few will pay the rate. Most want a quote up front which if you are lucky will pay you about $2 an hour, especially when body and fender work is part of the project. A simple paint job with no body work still requires a lot of time. So when you factor in the cost of ever increasing paint and decals(if you can get them) that becomes somewhere in the neighborhood of $20 of the job. I do custom paint. When I count the number of hours minus the parts, model, etc. I figure this job paid me less than $5 an hour. Oh boy!!!!! I sold this on e-Bay. I had gotten my jollies from the build and sold it. I got $425 or there about. Now deduct the model, parts, paint, etc. and the total is in the $300 or so range. Deduct Paypal and e-Bay fees and I'm out another $60. Now I'm at somewhere in the $250 range for my labors. But I pored a lot of time into the model, somewhere about 40 hours and I made less than minimum wage. I now work two jobs, one is 40 hours and the other about 15 to 25 a week. I have no time for much of anything, nor do I have the energy, so it takes me a good long time to finish things. The lack at times of parts, paint and decals also will hold up a project. Waiting a year or more for a detail part is not an uncommon occurrence. I've seen some paint jobs that are plain ugly. Looks like the painter applied the paint with a spatula. The decals weave around like snake. Sure they do work CHEAP but as the old expression goes "you get what you pay for". I know I'm done with painting for others. My personal time is too precious to make a pittance for other people. Plus, when the personal life demands your attention, you can't be painting. This delays the project and some folks can't understand that custom painting is a labor of love, not a labor of putting food on the table and a roof over the head.
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Post by talltim on Jan 25, 2017 7:33:01 GMT -8
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Post by cf7 on Jan 25, 2017 8:23:20 GMT -8
Jim, I'm right there with you on this. I used to do a ton of stuff for a couple different lhs's, but it took so much fun out of the hobby for me. I stopped a few years ago, but I agreed to do a brass steamer for a guy that I built and painted stuff for numerous times in the past...including building around a dozen or so Sunshine kits.
But, I've had this 2-8-2 apart for 5 months now. I have made progress on it. Everything has been painted and the entire drive is back together. I basically just need to decal it, add miscellaneous odds and ends, and weather it. It's hard to find the want to, so I just do a little here and there.
I find myself having a lot more fun restoring old dirt bikes. My trains will still be there when I'm ready for them.
Anybody wanna buy a small on30 layout?
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Post by TBird1958 on Jan 25, 2017 9:15:30 GMT -8
I don't do it much anymore either, it really doesn't pay out very well, can take the fun out of it, plus take away from my own modeling time. Currently the only project I have is Jim's (Rio Grande)brass Combine, which I wanted to do as a fun, different project. Otherwise, it can be a big PITA.
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Post by nightmare0331 on Jan 25, 2017 9:47:58 GMT -8
Jim brings up some solid points. As with everything else, the quality triangle applies here 'good, fast, cheap- pick two' I've noticed that the ones who still paint who are really good are booked not just for months, but for years. Lord knows I passed burned out years ago and have been either focusing on DCC work or every once in a blue moon, build something for myself. Enjoy! Kelley. www.dufordmodelworks.com
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Post by 12bridge on Jan 25, 2017 10:41:16 GMT -8
I started doing DCC installs and custom work on the side, and its true, it burns you out, QUICK! I have not even touched any of my own projects in some time.
Custom builders come and go, short of some well known guys, they usually only last a year or two..
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Post by talltim on Jan 25, 2017 11:08:06 GMT -8
I like the look of this guy's work, despite the name he also does repaints (although mainly weathering). I know no more about him that what you can glean from his website www.bradleydcc.com
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Post by Mark R. on Jan 26, 2017 19:56:26 GMT -8
Thanks for the comments above guys. I had my business going for about eight years almost full time. I was warned going in that once your hobby becomes your business, you'll lose interest in your hobby. Well, my own projects did suffer greatly for those years, but I enjoyed what I was doing. My decision to close shop was a culmination of a great many things.
One of the biggest things was the frustration of easily acquiring parts and paint. Hard to explain that one casting cost almost fifteen dollars because everyone was out of stock and you had to source one on ebay and pay shipping for just that one item. Quality of commercially available decals has really gotten bad which was very frustrating as well.
The second biggest factor was the fact I was getting none of my own projects done. When there is a stack of customer's projects staring you in the face every time you go in the workshop, it's kind of hard not to feel guilty about not getting them done.
It's been over a year now since I closed shop and I'm still having trouble getting back into the swing of working on my own projects again. I've done a few small things on the layout, but it's almost like since I closed my business - which WAS my hobby - I've almost closed my hobby as well. Kind of like enjoying swimming in the pool, so you branch out to swimming in the lake and almost drown .... now you're afraid to swim in the pool for fear of drowning.
Mark.
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Post by talltim on Jan 27, 2017 0:41:38 GMT -8
I can still remember reading a book as a child ( Thunder and Lighnings by Jan Mark), in which there was a boy who was obsessive about English Electric Lightnings. At school they had to choose a personal project and when he was asked why he didn't do his about Lightnings he said it would then become work and he wouldn't enjoy them any more. Stuck in my mind my whole adult life.
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Post by dtinut on Jan 27, 2017 7:20:20 GMT -8
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djh4d
Full Member
Posts: 205
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Post by djh4d on Jan 27, 2017 10:16:21 GMT -8
Jim stopped accepting work in April 2014.
-Dave
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Post by riogrande on Jan 27, 2017 11:24:50 GMT -8
Looks like "funs over" with regard to custom paining; or very slim pickens.
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Post by Mark R. on Jan 27, 2017 12:31:15 GMT -8
Looks like "funs over" with regard to custom paining; or very slim pickens. I still have people asking me who I would recommend that I would consider the same calibre .... tough question. I personally only know of two guys and they are both up to their eye-balls in work, not taking on any more and are seriously considering packing it in when the rush is over. I even have a few saved messages from guys who are willing to wait years should I ever consider getting back into it. Can't say it won't happen, but I need to make this a hobby again first. I think for the most part, it's the old school guys who did most of the custom building / painting because that's what we did when we got into the hobby. If you wanted something, you built and painted it yourself. With all the RTR items available over the past number of years, there really hasn't been much need to custom build / paint anything. Consequently, there aren't any generations to much degree following us into the trade as the old hats retire. Kind of sad really. To me, that IS the hobby. Mark.
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Post by riogrande on Jan 27, 2017 12:45:24 GMT -8
I think for the most part, it's the old school guys who did most of the custom building / painting because that's what we did when we got into the hobby. If you wanted something, you built and painted it yourself. I'm old enough that I remember how it was, although some were better than it than others. I was sort of an other I guess. True, except for brass, which from my understanding is kind of a different beast or isn't the same to paint as plastic exactly.
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Post by Mark R. on Jan 27, 2017 15:15:07 GMT -8
I think for the most part, it's the old school guys who did most of the custom building / painting because that's what we did when we got into the hobby. If you wanted something, you built and painted it yourself. I'm old enough that I remember how it was, although some were better than it than others. I was sort of an other I guess. True, except for brass, which from my understanding is kind of a different beast or isn't the same to paint as plastic exactly. If I had a choice, I would much prefer to work on brass than plastic any day ! Mark.
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Post by danpik on Jan 28, 2017 6:14:16 GMT -8
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Post by el3672 on Jan 28, 2017 20:56:28 GMT -8
High Five Custom Painting services / get a quote at Dan'sResinCasting............dpikulskie@roadrunner.com
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2017 4:43:21 GMT -8
David Long of Kelly Creek Backshop in Bozeman, MT still does amazing work. Former Northwest Shortline employee can also regear anything,
He did some amazing paint and regearing work for me.
He now charges $50 per hour. Top pro quality work. 406-585-0024 is the phone number, I believe.
He does not advertise because he does not need to. His business is from word of mouth.
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Post by Gary P on Jan 31, 2017 5:20:16 GMT -8
Question: With what seems to be all of the back-log and delays for good quality custom painting, and the low pay per hour that a painter gets, is it time for a reasonable increase in the rates charged? I'm not a painter, but understand that an enormous amount of prep work and actual painting goes into this. Folks should expect a reasonable compensation for their work. What is reasonable? I don't know, but if the demand is so high, with a back log like there is, seems a slight increase may make it more attractive to others to do the custom painting, as long as their work is good.
Am I off base on this? I'm not talking about ripping anyone off, just a reasonable rate of compensation to make it worth the painters time and effort!
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Post by scl1234 on Jan 31, 2017 5:48:14 GMT -8
I wouldn't say off base at all. Their knowledge and experience is worth the $$$. If I was in this business, a 25 percent (up front) deposit would be the requirement.
Typically, any professional's "work backlog" is usually proportional to the quality of their work -vs- what they charge.
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Jan 31, 2017 6:42:19 GMT -8
Question: With what seems to be all of the back-log and delays for good quality custom painting, and the low pay per hour that a painter gets, is it time for a reasonable increase in the rates charged? I'm not a painter, but understand that an enormous amount of prep work and actual painting goes into this. Folks should expect a reasonable compensation for their work. What is reasonable? I don't know, but if the demand is so high, with a back log like there is, seems a slight increase may make it more attractive to others to do the custom painting, as long as their work is good. Am I off base on this? I'm not talking about ripping anyone off, just a reasonable rate of compensation to make it worth the painters time and effort! The problem is the amount of time it ACTUALLY takes to do some of the work. Body and fender, as I refer to doing major surgery on a shell is tedious and time consuming. Cut, file, test, etc. just takes time. Yesterday, I spent a solid five hours on the Northern Pacific EMD SD45 build. What do I have to show for my time a whole lot of nothing. Removing the face of the front pilot of Kato SD45 took hours. Remember you can always remove material, but you can't put it back on if you go too far. So, lots or carving and sanding. I removed the blower duct on the shell and the inertial air filters. Again, cutting and filing and test fitting. I take a very cautious route on the cutting, as its more prudent to slowly remove material, than to try hit a grand slam on the first pitch. If you take a mighty swing and miss, your in the market for another shell and that is money out of YOUR pocket. You can't charge a customer for screw ups, even if it was in an effort to reduce the number of billable hours. At $20 an hour, to what to most people would look to be truly unremarkable, is $100. Still have to put on the scale buffer from DW. Along with filling the gaps from removal of the honking big out of scale Kato coupler draft gear and mounting. Plug holes in the pilot where the over-sized Kato pins for the handrails attach. Add the cut bars and brackets. The cut bars are scratch built and soldered. Install the DW snow plow. Add multiple unit signal lines, drop step and MU plug. There could be easily 10 hours in just working on the front pilot. At $20 an hour that is $200. Now add on the rebuilding of the back pilot and we are in the neighborhood of $300 to $400 just for the pilots and the air filters. Still haven't built the Cannon cab, nose, which will need to be notched for the Pyle gyralight, and sub bases. The model still needs the Cannon fans and the rest of the Plano SD45 grilles attached, plus paint and decals! I'll estimate at least 60 hours in the build and that may be conservative. $20 an hour multiplied by 60 hours is $1200 and ain't nobody in the their right mind is paying that, PLUS the model and all the parts. So if you take the cost of the model, paint, decals and the parts it is about $200. IF you could get $400 for this highly detailed Kato Northern Pacific EMD SD45, it leaves you with $200. $200 divided by 60(which I think is much too low), you have made $3.33 an hour! Flipping burgers at McDonalds pays substantially better. Many people WANT custom work and expect stunning results. They just REFUSE to pay the price. The people that do paint even on an hourly basis are more than likely not doing major surgery, if they do they have well healed clients that can and will pay hundreds of dollars for professional work. If I were to just slap NP paint and decals on the Kato model you are looking at 10 to 15 hours or $200 to $300 paint job. But that YOU'LL NEVER get for just a paint job on a plastic locomotive. The last run of brass NP SD45's from OMI fetch about $600. They are serial numbered, only 36 produced, factory painted and have lights. The models are not DCC ready. So, you can have brass for six or plastic for $300 to $400, without the details? ? There is no thinking required, you either get the plastic model for under $200, Athearn's NP SD45's in the RTR line regularly sell for just under $150, or you buy brass. The painter now makes under $10 an hour, more like minimum wage or less. Custom painters that have backlogs, generally know everybody for whom they are working. They've worked for the people in the past and know that when the job is done, they will be paid promptly. That is another problem for customer painters.....getting paid in at least a few weeks for the completed project. I've had too many encounters with people that are pushing and pushing for you to get the work done, because THEY JUST HAVE TO HAVE THEIR MODELS. Only to all of sudden have no money when I give them the bill. Now, comes the 100 plus excuses for not paying. What can I do, other than sit on the models and hope the customer gets the fish hooks out of their pockets before I'm pushing up daises. Many painters don't like to take on new clients, because you don't know anything about the person. Are they going to pay? Are they going to pay the total amount or begin to negotiate a cheaper price, because they refuse the pay the painter for what was supposedly agreed to up front. Are they going to be REASONABLE people and not get sour because of the length of time it is taking to complete the work. There are all kinds of issues between painter and customer. In the end, it is just not worth it to most people. Plus, you can't make a living doing painting, I tried and I failed....miserably. If you want extra pocket change for buying choo choos, getting a part time job at a retailer actually pays better and you know that payday is every other Friday.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2017 10:04:05 GMT -8
Well, I was always willing to pay for quality work, both years ago and now.
Many people do "ok" custom painting work for an "affordable" price, and then there are many others who demand a certain price point that hasn't changed in 25 years, as in say $150 to paint a brass steamer.
However, David Long will tell you it takes about 10 to 12 hours to completely disassemble and paint a brass steamer in just black and graphite, and reassemble it so that it actually runs well. If it's getting GN Glacier Park green, with chrome, and the red cab roof, it's going to be more. 14 hours for such a task is more than reasonable, as I know painters who could not do what he does as well as he does, even in 20 to 25 hours.
I'm not looking for "ok" work, for someone to paint my model with all the wheels running, and then to have that paint wear off all too easily, I am paying for quality work that will last and can be handled. If I wanted just "ok" work, with too heavy paint film thickness and bad color separation lines--that much I can and have done myself.
Anybody that's still charging pay rates from 25 years ago and then saying they can't make any money...well there are people out there that will pay for the time to do quality work, you just have to find them.
20 years ago I paid Mr. Long to regear and paint a couple brass articulateds, $400/each engine. He did simply amazing work back then--even matched color photos out of books for me. Now his hourly rate is doubled, but I know if and when I send him something it will come back looking as good or better than any factory paint job you can ever find--anywhere.
So the real question is how much is having something done correctly worth to the would-be client? Payment? I pay immediately and/or a painter keeps the model as ransom, anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2017 10:25:52 GMT -8
Question: With what seems to be all of the back-log and delays for good quality custom painting, and the low pay per hour that a painter gets, is it time for a reasonable increase in the rates charged? I'm not a painter, but understand that an enormous amount of prep work and actual painting goes into this. Folks should expect a reasonable compensation for their work. What is reasonable? I don't know, but if the demand is so high, with a back log like there is, seems a slight increase may make it more attractive to others to do the custom painting, as long as their work is good. Am I off base on this? I'm not talking about ripping anyone off, just a reasonable rate of compensation to make it worth the painters time and effort! There is no "standardized rate" for painting. Every painter and potential painter is free to set their prices as they see fit. They do know what's reasonable. How would you determine the "slight increase"? How would it be enforced?
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