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Post by cf7 on Jan 31, 2017 11:42:40 GMT -8
Gotta say...I agree with Jim again. The only difference for me is, I would do the work for a couple of different shops and I would get paid whenever I took the loco back to the shop. I would really never have to deal with anyone other than the shop. They would even ask the customers questions for me because they knew I hated being called on a Saturday night. My time is my time. They never gave my phone number to anyone. This worked out well for years...until I got so dang tired of doing it.
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Post by nightmare0331 on Jan 31, 2017 13:40:35 GMT -8
Jim brings up some excellent points again. I used to time study various projects and what I found was to rework a Kato SD40-2 into a CNW specific unit (including stripping, bead blasting, redetailing, painting, decaling, clearcoating, etc....you get the idea) was a roughly 16-18 hour job (give or take a couple hours depending on various factors) and I had the process streamlined pretty well. Did I make money painting? Sure. Was it worth the long hours and effort? hmm...debatable depending on the day. Some people were absolutely awesome to paint for (at least 1 on this forum actually), others...meh and everything in between. Being that money isn't really a motivator to me anymore, about the only way I paint for anyone anymore is if they have something I want or it's something that really interests me. These are few and far in between. Maybe that will change someday. Once I figure out how to make more hours in the day.  Enjoy! Kelley. www.dufordmodelworks.com |
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Post by roadkill on Jan 31, 2017 17:02:41 GMT -8
Used to do custom painting (and some custom kitbashing) back in the day, never again. Too easy to burn out...
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Jan 31, 2017 18:46:49 GMT -8
Jim brings up some excellent points again. I used to time study various projects and what I found was to rework a Kato SD40-2 into a CNW specific unit (including stripping, bead blasting, redetailing, painting, decaling, clearcoating, etc....you get the idea) was a roughly 16-18 hour job (give or take a couple hours depending on various factors) and I had the process streamlined pretty well. Did I make money painting? Sure. Was it worth the long hours and effort? hmm...debatable depending on the day. Some people were absolutely awesome to paint for (at least 1 on this forum actually), others...meh and everything in between. Being that money isn't really a motivator to me anymore, about the only way I paint for anyone anymore is if they have something I want or it's something that really interests me. These are few and far in between. Maybe that will change someday. Once I figure out how to make more hours in the day. Enjoy! Kelley. www.dufordmodelworks.comLet's round up Kelley's numbers to 20 hours of work. At $20 an hour that is $400 in labor. Add in parts, paint, decals, etc. along with the price of a decorated Kato SD40-2 and you are in the neighbor hood of $550 for ONE locomotive. Yeah, a lot may say they want a custom model but few can justify that type of an investment on just ONE locomotive. Now with the Scale Trains fully detailed units in crisp factory paint, you can buy two with sound and DCC for the price of one custom painted and detailed Kato model. It's a no brainer......you buy the two Scale Trains models. Burn out is a major factor that those that do custom painting get out. The hours needed and the amount most people are willing to pay weighs in heavily in the decision to step away from the trade. For most custom painters the custom paint "job" is a free time endeavor. The full time 8 hour a day, 40 hours a week job is the one that keeps the roof over the head and food on the table. That is also the main focus of the custom painter along with family. We all need rest time to recharge our minds and bodies. While custom painting is far from taxing on the body, the brain drain is what gets a person in the end. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2017 19:04:41 GMT -8
I have watched a friend "beat up" the local custom painter on price on Overland PRR RS27 units at 4 for $80 each...he got what he paid for...they were only ok.
Personally I have no problem shelling out $400 or more on a paint job if the model is brass ie limited availability and "collectable" to some degree, but honestly I would not go to the trouble of paying for custom work on plastic along with paint...I would only do stock model with minor mods if any, and paint.
To each his own.
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Post by fr8kar on Jan 31, 2017 21:32:45 GMT -8
Too bad the OP can't get a custom painter, but I certainly understand why. My arm really has to be twisted to do paint work for anyone but myself (and I don't like doing it for my projects much, either). I think the best course of action for the OP is simply to paint the locomotives him or herself. There's nothing really difficult about any part of it. It's just fundamental techniques like cleaning the model, applying masking, mixing and applying paint, controlling the painting environment, drying/curing, and proper handling of the model.
If you must do body work on a styrene model, fill in as much as you can with styrene. Got a hole to fill? Stretch sprue from an old kit over a candle and you'll have two long cone-shaped styrene plugs to install in the model and trim to fit. Fill as much as you can with styrene and for cracks and blemishes use Bondo spot putty. Use fine sandpaper to finish the body work, wet sanding as you are working toward the finished surface. Use fingernail buffers to get the surface really smooth.
You can use paint in a can or spray from an airbrush. I use an airbrush most of the time, but occasionally there's a color in a spray can that will work for me. You can get an air compressor for pretty cheap, but don't skimp on moisture control. I used to use expensive airbrushes; now I use the $20 double action models at Harbor Freight.
Decals are not difficult with a little practice. If you use Microscale decals, follow the instructions on the decal envelope. It's pretty foolproof if you use their products. Once you get comfortable using setting solution, try out Walthers Solvaset, but be sure to dilute it a bit. It's very aggressive. Micro-Sol is a much less aggressive decal solvent, but it will work (eventually).
For clear coats I will often mix Testors Dullcote and Glosscote with lacquer thinner and spray the model using the airbrush. But some models I want dead flat, so I use Tamiya flat clear spray.
It may sound like a lot, but it's really simple. For me the only drawback is that it's time-consuming and I don't often have the time, especially for decals which can take hours. But if it's an option for you, take a crack at painting your own models. You just might be the custom painter you're looking for.
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Post by TBird1958 on Feb 1, 2017 9:30:51 GMT -8
I guess I've been at this long enough that the notion of painting a model isn't that daunting a task, in the bad old days if you wanted a nice looking model it was just another part of the process. Once I really learned how to use paint, in my case SMP Accu-Paint now TCP, it became much less of a hurdle in the project. Having good tools and practicing with them makes all the difference as well, I get an hour of modeling time every morning before and I often paint during that time. The part of painting that I don't enjoy that much is masking, it's time consuming and for me at least not fun... I spent 35 minutes taping off this GP30s grilles this morning as prep for some initial airbrush color.  Less than 5 minutes in the booth with some very thinned out tan lacquer gets some color going before I finish with some chalks. 
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Post by thb401 on Feb 1, 2017 14:03:26 GMT -8
Might want to check with any train shops in your state/province. Some of the larger ones do custom painting etc or have someone who does it for there customers.
I also think the Bachmann H16-44 is a closer phase to the CP Rail ones than the Atlas H16-44.
It was nice to see some of the best painters and modelers chime in with there ideas and stories.
Bill
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Post by Mark R. on Feb 1, 2017 17:24:59 GMT -8
.... Now with the Scale Trains fully detailed units in crisp factory paint, you can buy two with sound and DCC for the price of one custom painted and detailed Kato model. It's a no brainer......you buy the two Scale Trains models. That's not even a legitimate argument. Say you're modeling the Adrian and Blissfield and want a model of their GP9. Are you going to pay $500 for exactly what you want or buy two of the new Scale Trains models for the same price that aren't what you need and have absolutely nothing to do with what you're modeling ? I think you're wrong .... you are going to buy what you need / want. Mark. |
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Feb 1, 2017 19:09:55 GMT -8
.... Now with the Scale Trains fully detailed units in crisp factory paint, you can buy two with sound and DCC for the price of one custom painted and detailed Kato model. It's a no brainer......you buy the two Scale Trains models. That's not even a legitimate argument. Say you're modeling the Adrian and Blissfield and want a model of their GP9. Are you going to pay $500 for exactly what you want or buy two of the new Scale Trains models for the same price that aren't what you need and have absolutely nothing to do with what you're modeling ? I think you're wrong .... you are going to buy what you need / want. Mark. There is always a need for the home road folks and those that model the obscure to have items painted, you'll get no argument on my part. Where painting has changed is the days of Athearn cranking out the same generic model with the same poor paint job and same road number is gone. During the those days of unpainted brass, etc. there was a real need for custom painters. Now, costs have increased, models have increased and people just aren't shopping necessarily in the places like hobby shops. The whole hobby has been evolving, requiring less effort especially on rolling stock. The absence of undecorated models is another issue. Some decorated models today are easy to pull apart, others not so much. This all takes time and finding people willing to spend the money to give a person at least some ample compensation is sometimes rare. I did some custom work for a hobby shop near me, when I was in Wisconsin. My fault for not setting my rock bottom price when I took on the jobs, but I assume the customer negotiated the price downward on the shop and the shop really stuck me with a low price. I stepped away from doing work for any store after that debacle. A couple of years ago when I was actively looking for work, I'd get requests, usually via e-mail for a quote. I'd explain what I wanted from them, the customer, and what the price would be based on the level of paint, decal and detailing work. I quoted a lot of jobs and never did get any work. So I figured the person was shell shocked by the price, which I really made pretty cheap. Like I said working for much less than minimum wage. Still couldn't land the deal. Plus, I think a lot of people that say they want custom work, quickly don't want it because of the price. That I'm almost certain. To the painters that have a faithful clientele, your in the gravy, congratulations. For those that don't have a well healed few, it doesn't usually turn out too well. |
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Post by Gary P on Feb 2, 2017 5:40:51 GMT -8
Question: With what seems to be all of the back-log and delays for good quality custom painting, and the low pay per hour that a painter gets, is it time for a reasonable increase in the rates charged? I'm not a painter, but understand that an enormous amount of prep work and actual painting goes into this. Folks should expect a reasonable compensation for their work. What is reasonable? I don't know, but if the demand is so high, with a back log like there is, seems a slight increase may make it more attractive to others to do the custom painting, as long as their work is good. Am I off base on this? I'm not talking about ripping anyone off, just a reasonable rate of compensation to make it worth the painters time and effort! The problem is the amount of time it ACTUALLY takes to do some of the work. Body and fender, as I refer to doing major surgery on a shell is tedious and time consuming. Cut, file, test, etc. just takes time. Yesterday, I spent a solid five hours on the Northern Pacific EMD SD45 build. What do I have to show for my time a whole lot of nothing. Removing the face of the front pilot of Kato SD45 took hours. Remember you can always remove material, but you can't put it back on if you go too far. So, lots or carving and sanding. I removed the blower duct on the shell and the inertial air filters. Again, cutting and filing and test fitting. I take a very cautious route on the cutting, as its more prudent to slowly remove material, than to try hit a grand slam on the first pitch. If you take a mighty swing and miss, your in the market for another shell and that is money out of YOUR pocket. You can't charge a customer for screw ups, even if it was in an effort to reduce the number of billable hours. At $20 an hour, to what to most people would look to be truly unremarkable, is $100. Still have to put on the scale buffer from DW. Along with filling the gaps from removal of the honking big out of scale Kato coupler draft gear and mounting. Plug holes in the pilot where the over-sized Kato pins for the handrails attach. Add the cut bars and brackets. The cut bars are scratch built and soldered. Install the DW snow plow. Add multiple unit signal lines, drop step and MU plug. There could be easily 10 hours in just working on the front pilot. At $20 an hour that is $200. Now add on the rebuilding of the back pilot and we are in the neighborhood of $300 to $400 just for the pilots and the air filters. Still haven't built the Cannon cab, nose, which will need to be notched for the Pyle gyralight, and sub bases. The model still needs the Cannon fans and the rest of the Plano SD45 grilles attached, plus paint and decals! I'll estimate at least 60 hours in the build and that may be conservative. $20 an hour multiplied by 60 hours is $1200 and ain't nobody in the their right mind is paying that, PLUS the model and all the parts. So if you take the cost of the model, paint, decals and the parts it is about $200. IF you could get $400 for this highly detailed Kato Northern Pacific EMD SD45, it leaves you with $200. $200 divided by 60(which I think is much too low), you have made $3.33 an hour! Flipping burgers at McDonalds pays substantially better. Many people WANT custom work and expect stunning results. They just REFUSE to pay the price. The people that do paint even on an hourly basis are more than likely not doing major surgery, if they do they have well healed clients that can and will pay hundreds of dollars for professional work. If I were to just slap NP paint and decals on the Kato model you are looking at 10 to 15 hours or $200 to $300 paint job. But that YOU'LL NEVER get for just a paint job on a plastic locomotive. The last run of brass NP SD45's from OMI fetch about $600. They are serial numbered, only 36 produced, factory painted and have lights. The models are not DCC ready. So, you can have brass for six or plastic for $300 to $400, without the details?  ? There is no thinking required, you either get the plastic model for under $200, Athearn's NP SD45's in the RTR line regularly sell for just under $150, or you buy brass. The painter now makes under $10 an hour, more like minimum wage or less. Custom painters that have backlogs, generally know everybody for whom they are working. They've worked for the people in the past and know that when the job is done, they will be paid promptly. That is another problem for customer painters.....getting paid in at least a few weeks for the completed project. I've had too many encounters with people that are pushing and pushing for you to get the work done, because THEY JUST HAVE TO HAVE THEIR MODELS. Only to all of sudden have no money when I give them the bill. Now, comes the 100 plus excuses for not paying. What can I do, other than sit on the models and hope the customer gets the fish hooks out of their pockets before I'm pushing up daises. Many painters don't like to take on new clients, because you don't know anything about the person. Are they going to pay? Are they going to pay the total amount or begin to negotiate a cheaper price, because they refuse the pay the painter for what was supposedly agreed to up front. Are they going to be REASONABLE people and not get sour because of the length of time it is taking to complete the work. There are all kinds of issues between painter and customer. In the end, it is just not worth it to most people. Plus, you can't make a living doing painting, I tried and I failed....miserably. If you want extra pocket change for buying choo choos, getting a part time job at a retailer actually pays better and you know that payday is every other Friday. I knew custom painting was a lot of hand work, but really never fully appreciated what it took for a quality job. I can certainly see the reason for the high pricing. Basically, you get what you pay for. I think there are many people, myself included, that simply did not realize how much "prep" or body and fender work is needed prior to a good paint job. I have friends in a car body shop, and it's the same there. Prep work is key. Thanks to all that replied. It helps those of us that do not have that kind of experience. |
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Post by roadkill on Feb 2, 2017 7:18:27 GMT -8
It's not just the "obscure", trust me. Say you want a couple of B&O F7's in the scheme where the grey roof was eliminated? Guess what? Nobody has done that scheme. How about C&O late b/y F7s with Futura lettering? Yep, never done, gotta do it yourself. Or a WM chopped Geep? Even if you have one of the old Oriental models your still gonna paint it yourself or pay someone else to do so. I could easily come up with dozens of non-obscure paint schemes that have either never been done or have only been done on ancient models like Blue Box Athearn. I'm currently working on that will be in this scheme: www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo1452ads.jpgNot only has it never been done but I'll bet a week's pay that it will NEVER be done so if you want it you're rolling your own. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2017 8:27:48 GMT -8
It's not just the "obscure", trust me. Say you want a couple of B&O F7's in the scheme where the grey roof was eliminated? Guess what? Nobody has done that scheme. How about C&O late b/y F7s with Futura lettering? Yep, never done, gotta do it yourself. Or a WM chopped Geep? Even if you have one of the old Oriental models your still gonna paint it yourself or pay someone else to do so. I could easily come up with dozens of non-obscure paint schemes that have either never been done or have only been done on ancient models like Blue Box Athearn. I'm currently working on that will be in this scheme: www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo1452ads.jpgNot only has it never been done but I'll bet a week's pay that it will NEVER be done so if you want it you're rolling your own. Or SP's black and orange "Halloween" paint scheme. Applied to about 200 units during 1957 - 58, mostly switchers but around 30 road switchers and 30 cab units, freight and passenger. That's about twice as many diesels as the "Daylight" scheme. Some Halloween units lasted until the late 60s, but very few models have been offered. Athearn did an S-12 and is going to do an F7A. Bowser may have done a Baldwin switcher. Not sure if Atlas did an HH-660... |
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Feb 2, 2017 8:34:46 GMT -8
Sort of like the difference between a good custom painter and 'Oh-oh, better get Maaco' or Earl Scheib back in the day....
It's ALL in the prep. The last 1:1 show car I painted had 80+ hours in prep and maybe 2-3 hours in actually "painting" it.
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Post by riogrande on Feb 2, 2017 8:37:52 GMT -8
Hah hah, I got an Earl Scheib paint job in the late 1970's - but I did some prep myself on the advice of a buddy who was good with body work; he has ran his own body shop in Sacramento since the 1990's.
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Post by Gary P on Feb 3, 2017 4:51:28 GMT -8
Sort of like the difference between a good custom painter and 'Oh-oh, better get Maaco' or Earl Scheib back in the day.... It's ALL in the prep. The last 1:1 show car I painted had 80+ hours in prep and maybe 2-3 hours in actually "painting" it. Oh yeah, I remember the Earl Scheib drive-thru paint jobs back in the 60's and 70's. Magnetic hub cap covers, quick wrap on the chrome bumpers, mask the windows, and drive it through! VIOLA - new color!  If I remember correctly, when they started out, it was only $19.95! There are some old commercials from TV out on youtube with Earl himself doing the commercial. Fun stuff! |
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If I remember correctly, when they started out, it was only $19.95! There are some old commercials from TV out on youtube with Earl himself doing the commercial. Fun stuff!