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Post by Brakie on Feb 28, 2018 8:24:15 GMT -8
Hey, Athearn had molded on grabs, fans, and other detail parts in 1955. And on their newer locomotives(GP38-2 etc.) just had nubs where the modeler was suppose to add grabs.. Since McDonalds has proven robots can take orders and do food preparation I can see where robots could assemble our locomotives since many factories used them in production including the automotive industry. |
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Post by packer on Feb 28, 2018 8:30:19 GMT -8
What if they 3D printed the parts, then had robots assemble it. Pretty sure a robot wouldn't put grabs on crooked (and could probably do a lot of #80 holes without breaking bits). It could probably be programmed to make all the various locos.
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timmie
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Post by timmie on Feb 28, 2018 8:51:20 GMT -8
What ever the reason, I have no doubt we will see $399 locomotive prices one day! Our buddy at Rapido is a good chunk of the way there my friend. If it meant a reduction in the cost of the model...I'd be more than happy to apply ALL of those detail parts myself! |
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Post by canrailfan on Feb 28, 2018 8:55:45 GMT -8
I don't see how 3D printing would help save money, you still need someone to assemble it. That's the major cost. I'll bet a lot of the manually applied detail parts can be printed as part of shell. Attaching those detail parts must be large part of the cost because many manufacturers are now offering locomotives and passenger cars without the detail parts. We'll see what happens. Manufacturing is going to look at lot different at the end of the next decade. The cost of Robotics is going to decline as well. Whether robotics work economically for a model railroad locomotive, who knows. If you look at some of the videos Rapido has posted showing what goes on in their factory you will see how labour intensive the production process is. The whole process from start to finish takes an incredible number of people and amount of time. The assembly process is interesting to watch. Some workers do nothing but cut parts off sprues and trim flash off them. Others assemble the parts in a multitude of permutations for those road-number specific models we all have become used to getting. It's all finicky and tedious work, it's no wonder that Jason says they have a relatively high turnover in staff, especially after the Chinese New Year holiday. I think by moving the Rapido factory out of the present location (where many MRR factories are competing for the same labour pool) to a different region of China, Jason and his partners are hoping to stabilize their workforce and hopefully prices too. But this change will likely only be helpful in the short term. The long term solution will likely involve 3D printing, if and when the issue of surface textures can be resolved. There is no economical 3D printing process yet that can match the surface smoothness of an injection-molded part. Once the smoothness of a 3D-printed part can match the injection-molded one then model production processes will change. A locomotive shell with all the required details could be printed as a single piece in most cases or only require the addition of a very small number of parts. The cost of the complicated multi-slide injection molds now being used to change grills, doors, headlights, etc. could be eliminated. Robotics may come into play but as has already been pointed out, the small quantities being produced would likely make robot set-up costs un-economical. |
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timmie
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Post by timmie on Feb 28, 2018 9:35:16 GMT -8
As I stated...give me the model in the same state as the old blue box models...some assembly required...at a reduced price and I'm happy.
As everyone is stating, the application of all these road appropriate detail parts are the reason the models are at the $300 dollar mark! Save the costs of the added labour costs to apply said parts and make it modeler applied.. or at least offer that option.
Scaletrains does something along those lines with their operator grade models, they sell detail kits to bring them up to
Rivit counter level or close to it.
Another point that needs to be addressed with almost all the higher end model companies is the quality control.
It's been stated many times...when your paying the prices they want for these models, they should be 100% ready to go to work on your railroad! Simple things such as coupler height issues, truck screws over tightened to the point they won't swivel as they should, locomotive decoders not functioning properly or at all.. simple things like that.
We all understand that issues occur, weather it's the odd thing that gets by, or mishandling during shipping that dislodges parts is out of the company's control..these kinda issues are acceptable, but not the same issues over and over again.
Maybe offering these models in kit forms is a way to satisfy everyone.
Would save labour costs that's forsure.
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Post by John Sheridan on Feb 28, 2018 9:59:20 GMT -8
As I stated...give me the model in the same state as the old blue box models...some assembly required...at a reduced price and I'm happy. As everyone is stating, the application of all these road appropriate detail parts are the reason the models are at the $300 dollar mark! Save the costs of the added labour costs to apply said parts and make it modeler applied.. or at least offer that option. Scaletrains does something along those lines with their operator grade models, they sell detail kits to bring them up to Rivit counter level or close to it. I hate to tell you this but you are in the vast minority. Hence the reason why the market does not cater to you. Every single model you buy that is "ready to run" is essentially hand made by a human being. Its also the reason why the prices are high. Its been tried with rolling stock. And it failed miserably. |
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Post by John Sheridan on Feb 28, 2018 10:06:10 GMT -8
The long term solution will likely involve 3D printing, if and when then the issue of surface textures can be resolved. There is no economical 3D printing process yet that can match the surface smoothness of an injection-molded part. Once the smoothness of a 3D-printed part can match the injection-molded one then model production processes will change. A locomotive shell with all the required details could be printed as a single piece in most cases or only require the addition of a very small number of parts. The cost of the complicated multi-slide injection molds now being used to change grills, doors, headlights, etc. could be eliminated. Robotics may come into play but as has already been pointed out, the small quantities being produced would likely make robot set-up costs un-economical. The trouble with 3d printing - 1. It take a pretty long time to print anything of size. In contrast by the time you print 1 locomotive shell, I can inject hundreds of shells. 2. The cost for 3d printing on a commercial is a lot higher than injection molding. 3. You need many 3d printers to even come close to the productivity of 1 injection modeling machine. Until you can solve the above issues, injection molding will remain king. As for robotic assembly - we are not there yet economically for robots to assemble very delicate model RR stuff. Robots have a huge up-front cost, & setup cost. They are great if you are making hundreds of thousands of wigets. Not so much for a few thousand pieces. |
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timmie
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Post by timmie on Feb 28, 2018 10:18:18 GMT -8
As I stated...give me the model in the same state as the old blue box models...some assembly required...at a reduced price and I'm happy. As everyone is stating, the application of all these road appropriate detail parts are the reason the models are at the $300 dollar mark! Save the costs of the added labour costs to apply said parts and make it modeler applied.. or at least offer that option. Scaletrains does something along those lines with their operator grade models, they sell detail kits to bring them up to Rivit counter level or close to it. I hate to tell you this but you are in the vast minority. Hence the reason why the market does not cater to you. Every single model you buy that is "ready to run" is essentially hand made by a human being. Its also the reason why the prices are high. Its been tried with rolling stock. And it failed miserably. There are still a lot of modelers that like to build their own kits, or highly modify rtr models. The kit model didn't fail miserably, that's all that used to be offered, then the lazy uninspired modelers began whining for preassembled kits cause they couldn't be bothered to do it themselves. We all realize the cost involved in someone preassembling the model for us Capt Obvious... that's why I wish they they'd offer the models in a kit form st a lesser cost. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2018 10:21:03 GMT -8
Um, I have drilled #80 handrail holes for days and weeks on end, with properly designed stainless steel jigs, for the company I once worked for, and also using liquid 1-1-1 Trichloroethane (now classified as hazardous waste) as the drill lubricant, because I was drilling into zinc. Even with a delicate touch on the drill press, and lots of experience doing it day in and day out, it is still easy to break the best quality #80 drill bits.
I doubt that a robot could economically replace the person drilling those holes. However, plastic is much easier to drill.
Also, the cost of picking, sorting, and packing kit models is also extreme, and the Chinese are very loathe to do it. It can nearly cost more per unit to pack the kit diesel locomotive (in different packaging than rtr) than to assemble one completely finished. Where undecorated diesels are offered, the added cost is (sometimes) amortized over the rest of the product run. As such it represents a hidden cost that is not accurately tracked by accounting. |
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Post by Brakie on Feb 28, 2018 10:52:14 GMT -8
Guys,The obvious answer to help hold the line is Scale Train "Operator" class with aftermarket detail package..Would this work for the modeler with shallow hobby pockets probably for the rich kids no.
I just bought a old Walthers/Roco SW1 off e-Bay for less then $50.00 and saved several dollars in the process.
My point?
I don't need every new model they release in fact I could stop buying (yeah right) and have more than enough-77 cars and 29 locomotives. Number 30 will be IM's GP16. Maybe it's time to thin the herd?
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Post by hovehicle on Feb 28, 2018 10:56:58 GMT -8
We wanted LED lights in Genesis diesels and we're getting them because there is a re-tooling process inside of the shell that has to be done. A rep from Athearn told me that many years ago. I look forward to my first diesel from Genesis with LED lights and that will be the SD60E. You want more detail, pay the man!
Vito l.
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Post by John Sheridan on Feb 28, 2018 11:08:21 GMT -8
There are still a lot of modelers that like to build their own kits, or highly modify rtr models. The kit model didn't fail miserably, that's all that used to be offered, then the lazy uninspired modelers began whining for preassembled kits cause they couldn't be bothered to do it themselves. We all realize the cost involved in someone preassembling the model for us Capt Obvious... that's why I wish they they'd offer the models in a kit form st a lesser cost. Yes there are a bunch of people who like to build it themselves. There are markets & groups who cater to them as well. However, you are vastly outnumbered by the RTR crowd. This is the groups that allows most companies to keep functioning. To call them all lazy uninspired modelers is an insult to all of them. Not everyone can be Mr. Awesome Modeler like you ya know. To call me Capt Obvious is also an insult. I think you might want to change your tune a bit before the mob(tm) sets upon your self-righteous ass. |
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timmie
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Post by timmie on Feb 28, 2018 11:08:38 GMT -8
We wanted LED lights in Genesis diesels and we're getting them because there is a re-tooling process inside of the shell that has to be done. A rep from Athearn told me that many years ago. I look forward to my first diesel from Genesis with LED lights and that will be the SD60E. You want more detail, pay the man! Vito l. Yes more detail, but less of "pay the man". Give us the detail and we'll install it ourselves. Like a broken record..it keeps being said the reason for the extremely high costs of these models are the factory installed parts. |
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timmie
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Post by timmie on Feb 28, 2018 11:13:24 GMT -8
There are still a lot of modelers that like to build their own kits, or highly modify rtr models. The kit model didn't fail miserably, that's all that used to be offered, then the lazy uninspired modelers began whining for preassembled kits cause they couldn't be bothered to do it themselves. We all realize the cost involved in someone preassembling the model for us Capt Obvious... that's why I wish they they'd offer the models in a kit form st a lesser cost. Yes there are a bunch of people who like to build it themselves. There are markets & groups who cater to them as well. However, you are vastly outnumbered by the RTR crowd. This is the groups that allows most companies to keep functioning. To call them all lazy uninspired modelers is an insult to all of them. Not everyone can be Mr. Awesome Modeler like you ya know. To call me Capt Obvious is also an insult. I think you might want to change your tune a bit before the mob(tm) sets upon your self-righteous ass. Sure!... anytime! |
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Feb 28, 2018 12:26:16 GMT -8
Well this topic has come up again......kit v assembled.
Okay about a year or so ago, when this same subject was being hotly debated, Jason of Rapido made a very to the point post. He said the cost of the model is not in the assembly, but in the research, development and tooling. If I remember correctly, he stated that the cost of assembly was at or less than 10% of the total cost. So offering models in stripped down form really isn't a real money saver.
Now onto Scale Trains and their Operator class of EMD SD40-2. It had been my understanding that the super low prices on the SD40-2 was a promotional thing. Again, I seem to recall that Shane of ST said there would be a price increase at some time. Don't forget that the Operator SD40-2 is a single body style. It is a mid phase SD40-2. It will never offered in early and late, that I do clearly remember.
As far as the detail packets go with ST's SD40-2, it is just basic stuff like cut bars, grabs, etc. No you are not going to get some prototype specific air conditioner, etc.
Lets cover the undecorarted model and it's slow move to the land of the dinosaur. I expressed my want for more undecorated models to my dealer in Green Bay, Wisconsin. The store is one of the few bricks and mortar that actually does buy undecorated models for store and online stock. Paul, the owner, has personally gone over the lack of undecorated models with the various manufacturers during numerous conversations between him and the individual manufacturers. He has been told that the undecorated models are a pain in the rear for the Chinese factories. In the factories the models move through stations where a worker is tasked with for instance, putting on the cut levers. When an undecorated model is produced, a worker has to insert parts into bags and count. Counting takes time or so he was told. This is why when Bowser released their ALCo C-430 it came already assembled! Plus, they did ONLY one body style/phase. People screamed bloody murder on this very forum of buying an undecorated model which was tightly assembled to never come apart. I agree that is just stupid. But what can we do?
The cost in these models is the work it takes to make it. Handrails, detail parts, etc. all come off the machines in gates. These in turn have to be separated and cleaned up. While it would seem to make sense to just rough cut the gates apart and stick them in a box, there is the issue of space in the "standard" box. The boxes these models come in are engineered to fit a nicely finished model with maybe an add on part or two. The undecorated Athearn Genesis models I've purchased over the years has all the parts more or less crammed in all available space in order to use that "standard" box.
I still prefer to build my models, since I have no one to blame but myself, if there are mistakes made in the assembly.
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Post by Brakie on Feb 28, 2018 13:19:42 GMT -8
Guys,First and foremost I know I'm preaching to the choir.
But..
That ST operator Gunderson 5188 is master piece and well worth the price as was the operator SD40-2. I will be happy when I apply the more noticeable details like mu hoses and uncoupling bar that the average modeler sees first.
My three new Atlas cars with all of their minute detail scares me enough to consider not changing couplers.
My Atlas S4 and IM GP10 are museum quality locomotives from the box.
Here's the kicker...
Do I need such locomotives and cars to enjoy the hobby? I don't think so since I still like my older Atlas and Kato and P2K engines. OTOH I like today's RTR cars.
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Post by upcsx on Feb 28, 2018 16:03:32 GMT -8
Larry,yes the ST Gunderson 5188 operator is great I just got two today and the detail parts to go with them and four rivet counters they are fine hoppers.
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Post by bnsf971 on Feb 28, 2018 16:35:23 GMT -8
I hate to tell you this but you are in the vast minority. Hence the reason why the market does not cater to you. Every single model you buy that is "ready to run" is essentially hand made by a human being. Its also the reason why the prices are high. Its been tried with rolling stock. And it failed miserably. There are still a lot of modelers that like to build their own kits, or highly modify rtr models. The kit model didn't fail miserably, that's all that used to be offered, then the lazy uninspired modelers began whining for preassembled kits cause they couldn't be bothered to do it themselves. We all realize the cost involved in someone preassembling the model for us Capt Obvious... that's why I wish they they'd offer the models in a kit form st a lesser cost. Well. Since you started calling people names, Mr. Self-Righteous ****, let's see photos of all your hand built and detailed models. We're all waiting to be amazed by your truly unparalleled modeling skills. |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Feb 28, 2018 17:19:51 GMT -8
timmie,
You want an Athearn BB? Go to any train show. Go to eBay. You can find hundreds, nay, thousands of them in unassembled glory for very little money. They are a glut on the market as Athearn made them, unchanged, for decades. A 1990's-era Athearn BB F7A has the exact same paint scheme and road number as was offered in the 1960's. The loco drives changed more often than the road numbers. I certainly don't miss the Athearn BB era (how can I when it won't go away?).
But there's a key reason why BB-type kits don't dominate the market these days: few modelers actually want them. And those that do...well, I've never found anyone pining for the Athearn BB that was willing to pay more for a kit vs. RTR (because they only care about paying less), and I've never found one that builds cars and locos from scratch (because they want someone else to paint, letter and build almost all of it for them). Otherwise, they'd be buying Westerfield or Funaro & Camerlingo kits.
If you were a manufacturer, with your own money, your house, and your kid's college funds on the line, would you try to sell hundreds of loco kits at $50 ea. or thousands of engines at $300 ea.? Take your time, I'll wait...
And in reality, the kit market died when modelers were no longer willing to accept mediocre generic models. If Athearn stuck strictly with the BB line, they'd be out of business.
What makes you think it was laziness? Really? Because building an Athearn BB kit is just so tedious? The 15 min. it takes? Puh-leeze. No. Modelers no longer wanted "door claws" and thick stirrups. Foobie paint schemes and out-of-proportion bodies are passé. People want quality and are willing to pay for it. That's not being lazy, that's spending your hobby dollars wisely and spending time on other things like scenery, trackwork, or DCC/Sound. Not everyone wants to shave off molded grabs for hours; maybe they prefer to do other things in this hobby...like running trains rather than building them.
Jim,
Um, actually I've been told the #1 cost is labor. It's why Bowser can afford to R&D, create tooling, and shoot plastic in the USA but sends it all to China to be assembled.
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Post by Brakie on Feb 28, 2018 18:01:20 GMT -8
Paul3 said:
But there's a key reason why BB-type kits don't dominate the market these days: few modelers actually want them. And those that do...well, I've never found anyone pining for the Athearn BB that was willing to pay more for a kit vs. RTR (because they only care about paying less)(snip),
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul, Careful there! As you know a lot of Athearn's "Roundhouse" brand cars is nothing more than built BB kits with metal wheels at today's RTR prices.
I agree the BB era lives on as RTR.. Even that old Globe FP7 A/B is still available. I would rather see the return of the SW7 as a Roundhouse engine then that 70 year old Globe F7.Never did like that thing.
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Post by milgentrains on Feb 28, 2018 19:16:48 GMT -8
Paul3 said: But there's a key reason why BB-type kits don't dominate the market these days: few modelers actually want them. And those that do...well, I've never found anyone pining for the Athearn BB that was willing to pay more for a kit vs. RTR (because they only care about paying less)(snip), ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, Careful there! As you know a lot of Athearn's "Roundhouse" brand cars is nothing more than built BB kits with metal wheels at today's RTR prices. I agree the BB era lives on as RTR.. Even that old Globe FP7 A/B is still available. I would rather see the return of the SW7 as a Roundhouse engine then that 70 year old Globe F7.Never did like that thing. I too would like to see the SW-7 reborn. I guess that I am one of those lesser folks who still search out BB kits, I've got several boxes of them to build someday. |
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Post by cf7 on Feb 28, 2018 19:20:27 GMT -8
Foobie paint schemes....are passé. I guess that describes me. I love a foobie, as long as it looks right. It has to be believable. |
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Post by loco8107 on Feb 28, 2018 21:51:09 GMT -8
The RTR cars are way better overall than the kits ever were. They’re worth the price which isn’t all that bad.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2018 22:14:02 GMT -8
Some of the older Athearn cars have been upgraded. Some of the rtr cars now are actually earlier Genesis cars with separately applied grab irons etc. No two Athearn models seem to be alike. Some rtr cars are great. I am not an Espee guy but those rtr tunnel motors are very nearly Genesis quality.
The Chinese do not want to pack kits, period, and after what Bowser views as a very bad experience, they have privately expressed doubts about ever offering undecorated diesels again. None are catalogued that I can find on their website, for production anytime soon (please go look and prove me wrong if you can).
So, this is why some manufacturers have concluded that not enough actual buyers will buy an undecorated engine. I am not here to speak for any manufacturer, but there is an opinion held by some that only about twenty hard core diesel modelers actually exist, who will actually spend their money on an undecorated diesel, and that all of them happen to be regular posters on this particular forum. It also seems reasonable that the kind of person who preorders a model may not be the same person who will buy a kit, because some would insist on seeing the kit first before deciding if they could use it. If nobody preorders....well then we have a problem. I dont see posts on other forums asking for undecorated diesels, only here.
Where are those Intermountain GP8/10/11 kits anyway? Since they are offering the model GP-10 in every conceivable paint scheme, it kinda seems like no kit will be needed? I dont know much about Alco/MLW power, but it seems Bowser and Atlas have released just about every paint scheme ever applied to a Century, except Apache Railway blue and silver. All other Apache Railway schemes for RS and Century units have been produced.
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Post by chessie77 on Feb 28, 2018 22:18:01 GMT -8
I agree about the prices of cars today. That's why I still love Accurail. I go to train shows looking for older kits and cars. I don't feel that any car is worth more than $25, no matter how detailed it is. As far as I am concerned, cars can be too detailed. Just more parts to break off. I also feel that if a detail isn't visible from 3 feet, it doesn't need to be on the model. I'm lucky, one of my local hobby shops has a large selection of used cars in the $10 to $15 range. Loose cars without boxes are $5 to $10. Now I do have a few, more detailed cars like Kadee covered hoppers, I only paid $15 a piece for them. Any way long live Accurail and Bowser kits.
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Post by grahamline on Feb 28, 2018 22:22:01 GMT -8
My dealer says he can sell 15-20 RTR freight cars or engines for every kit he might have in stock, regardless of the relative pricing. The cost of an Athearn Genesis in the box is less than I would have to pay for the engine, decoders, speaker (opt.), and detail parts. Unfortunately, they won't necessarily be the same detail parts I'd want, or in the right places for me, but it's cheaper to buy the full meal deal than to cook my own.
I'm glad to see the tradition of personal sniping hasn't died out yet.
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Post by Judge Doom on Mar 1, 2018 4:12:39 GMT -8
As I stated...give me the model in the same state as the old blue box models...some assembly required...at a reduced price and I'm happy. As everyone is stating, the application of all these road appropriate detail parts are the reason the models are at the $300 dollar mark! Save the costs of the added labour costs to apply said parts and make it modeler applied.. or at least offer that option. Scaletrains does something along those lines with their operator grade models, they sell detail kits to bring them up to Rivit counter level or close to it. "...some assembly required..." Oh boy. I don't think you really realize what you're asking here...the top-dollar Athearn Genesis, Rapido, etc models are not the equivalent to Athearn blue-box locos that need a few grab irons applied that any kid can add in half an hour watching TV. Think more along the lines of Intermountain cylindrical hopper kits with many, many small parts that need to be cut out and assembled. Or for locomotives, lots of tiny grabs to drill holes for and apply, underframe piping, cab detail, truck detail, lift rings, end pilot detail line MU hoses and cut levers, separate cab window inserts, etc. As someone who has assembled his fair share of detailed plastic and resin loco kits and freight cars, the "I'll build everything from kits" attitude is all good and fine for maybe doing one or three models, but if you're doing more than that, say a dozen hoppers or coal cars, or half a dozen Genesis GP38-2's, it gets old reeeaaaallll fast. If you really want to save on costs it's simple - there are plenty of low-cost alternatives from Bachmann, Accurail and other manufacturers you can buy. And the used market is flooded with old Athearn, Roundhouse, Life-Like, Bachmann etc models going for cheap and already assembled, as well as older Atlas, Proto, etc units at decent prices. Wait, what's that - you want the latest highly detailed Athearn Genesis SDP40F in kit forum just to save a few bucks? Yeah, sure, good luck with that. The high-end market doesn't want to put together hundreds of parts on each highly detailed loco. And the low-end market would take one look at one of those highly detailed kits and run the other direction, both because of the price the highly detailed kit be offered at, and the complexity of assembly. There's a reason you can still find many old-stock P2K and Intermountain kits never assembled and in their boxes with all the tiny detailed parts still intact on their sprues - they are very time consuming, and many modelers don't want to deal with that. Especially not now with years of being able to buy the same model fully assembled for a few bucks more. Heck, people hated drilling and installing grab irons on Walthers passenger and freight cars, so now they all come attached. A company might have some success offering basic Accurail, or Athearn blue-box style freight car kits with most/all the pasts cast-on, easy assembly and few parts. A model RR company offering a highly detailed locomotive model as a kit alongside an assembled model would only do that once before declaring it a failure due to lack of kit sales compared to the assembled models sold, and never bother doing it again. And a company only offering a highly detailed loco as a kit won't sell nearly as much as they would a fully assembled RTR model, which is lost potential sales and revenue for them. Yes more detail, but less of "pay the man". Give us the detail and we'll install it ourselves. Like a broken record..it keeps being said the reason for the extremely high costs of these models are the factory installed parts. Speak for yourself. And hey, if you think everyone buying RTR are just lazy modelers, fine. Let's see your fleet of Intermountain cylindrical hoppers or P2K 8000gal tank cars built from kits by yourself, or a few Sylvan, Kaslo or Funaro & Carmelengo flat resin kits fully built up, detailed and painted. I've assembled dozens of detailed kits, and as much as I enjoy it I can tell you, there's a reason manufacturers phased out kits and went to RTR as detail levels climbed and models became more complex. BINGO! This is all anyone had to say about the prices of Athearn's models. Nothing more. There was no need for people to immediately start defending Athearn and all other Manufacturers with the "Riding cost" reasoning. People in general are real quick in defending the manufacturers and that is funny. They remind me of Hardcore Trump supporters that defend his every action and make excuses FOR HIM on every stupid or outrageous stuff that he does. Let the manufacturer defend themselves if they care about their reputation and what people are saying about them. My point is, STOP BEING MANUFACTURERS SPOKESMAN IF IT IS NOT YOUR BUSINESS OR YOU ARE NOT BEING PAID TO DO SO. Sure Al, whatever. Maybe we don't need to wait for them to chime in. It might be hard to believe for some people, but maybe there are actually people on this forum involved with model RR companies and the industry, who know what the current business conditions and challenges they face are. Maybe we don't need to hear a weather reporter on TV tell us that it's raining to believe it, when we can just look out the window ourselves and see. |
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Post by riogrande on Mar 1, 2018 4:38:15 GMT -8
As I stated...give me the model in the same state as the old blue box models...some assembly required...at a reduced price and I'm happy. As everyone is stating, the application of all these road appropriate detail parts are the reason the models are at the $300 dollar mark! Save the costs of the added labour costs to apply said parts and make it modeler applied.. or at least offer that option. Scaletrains does something along those lines with their operator grade models, they sell detail kits to bring them up to Rivit counter level or close to it. "...some assembly required..." Oh boy. I don't think you really realize what you're asking here...the top-dollar Athearn Genesis, Rapido, etc models are not the equivalent to Athearn blue-box locos that need a few grab irons applied that any kid can add in half an hour watching TV. Think more along the lines of Intermountain cylindrical hopper kits with many, many small parts that need to be cut out and assembled. Or for locomotives, lots of tiny grabs to drill holes for and apply, underframe piping, cab detail, truck detail, lift rings, end pilot detail line MU hoses and cut levers, separate cab window inserts, etc. As someone who has assembled his fair share of detailed plastic and resin loco kits and freight cars, the "I'll build everything from kits" attitude is all good and fine for maybe doing one or three models, but if you're doing more than that, say a dozen hoppers or coal cars, or half a dozen Genesis GP38-2's, it gets old reeeal fast. Yep, Mr. Doom has it correct. I agree. I'm no fine scale modeler but I have assembled a number of Intermountain and Proto 2000 kits and no, I'm not going to build up a fleet that way. It is not something I particularly enjoy or have a lot of time for. I am assembling a P2K 4427 covered hopper right now, with what little time I have with a fixer upper house, it's been on the work bench half assembled for a couple weeks now. I bought one of those de-sprueing nippers and cutting the tiny parts intact is pretty quick and easy now; once I bought that tool, that part of the kit process was made soooo much easier. But yes, you still need to ream or predrill holes etc. Yes more detail, but less of "pay the man". Give us the detail and we'll install it ourselves. Like a broken record..it keeps being said the reason for the extremely high costs of these models are the factory installed parts. Manufacturers are making kits still, mainly undec kits, such as Intermountain, Moloco, Tangent, and Genesis. Limited quantities but if you really want them, you can make it a priority when they are available to grab. Lots of kits are on Ebay as Judge pointed out. It's not like I haven't heard the lament before about the lack of kits. But when I go to trains shows I see lots and lots, year after year. If you really want detailed kits, they are definitely there for the taking. Manufacturers are responding to the market which is mostly a demand for RTR. I'm with the Judge here, it's not a matter of modelers being lazy, it's a host of things. If you need a fleet and you aren't retired with boat loads of time, then RTR starts looking real good. |
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Post by Brakie on Mar 1, 2018 4:53:36 GMT -8
Some of the older Athearn cars have been upgraded. Some of the rtr cars now are actually earlier Genesis cars with separately applied grab irons etc. No two Athearn models seem to be alike. Some rtr cars are great. I am not an Espee guy but those rtr tunnel motors are very nearly Genesis quality.
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Athearn's FMC boxcars are the older Roundhouse kits that has been upgraded with separately applied grab irons, stirrups etched walkover and metal wheels. The former Roundhouse FMC covered hopper as also been upgraded with etched walkways, etched walkover, thinner grabs and ladders metal wheels and other improvements..
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Post by loco8107 on Mar 1, 2018 10:48:56 GMT -8
To add to this, I also paint and detail locos to a good level. It is a real test on ones nerves at times so it’s wrong to say folks are lazy. As was said before a loco here and there but a whole fleet is a LOT of work regardless how enjoyable it is for some.
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