|
|
Post by atsfan on Nov 3, 2012 6:30:10 GMT -8
The latest "The Model Railway Show" podcast is a good one. Nothing earth shattering, but two good discussions on where the hobby is headed in terms of making trains in China versus the USA. Worth a listen I think. www.themodelrailwayshow.comOr on iTunes. |
|
|
|
Post by calzephyr on Nov 3, 2012 13:45:13 GMT -8
The latest "The Model Railway Show" podcast is a good one. Nothing earth shattering, but two good discussions on where the hobby is headed in terms of making trains in China versus the USA. Worth a listen I think. www.themodelrailwayshow.comOr on iTunes. The article by Jason is very interesting describing why models are not produced in the States or Canada. I have begin to wonder why the average new HO passenger car costs at least $70 or greater if the workers earn so little in China. Yes, I know the engineering is done here and even some of the tooling might be done here before it is sent to China. It seems like the new prices are going to prevent a lot of modelers from buying the new products which will lead to smaller runs and higher prices. Larry |
|
|
|
Post by Brakie on Nov 4, 2012 4:26:49 GMT -8
It seems like the new prices are going to prevent a lot of modelers from buying the new products which will lead to smaller runs and higher prices.
Larry
------------------------------
And here's the rub the "experts" failed to mention.
Bachmann keeps improving their product and could flood the market with low detailed locomotives with DCC and Tsunami sound and generic freight cars at the fraction of the cost of their competitors.
Guys,Don't sneer to much as the other manufacturers are force to keep raising prices Bachmann can hold their price line since their locomotives and cars are less detailed.
I've seen the Bachmann GP9 with added details..It didn't look all that bad and one could mistake it for a older Atlas GP7 or a P2K GP7/9 at normal layout viewing.
So...Maybe we might have to sharpen our dormant locomotive detailing skills.
Of course by building a smaller layout or ISL one could stick with the higher end cars and locomotives.
Or
One could stock pile the needed locomotives and cars while they are still "affordable"...
Or
We can use what we already have.
|
|
mecu18b
Full Member
My doctor gave me six months to live, but when I couldn't pay the bill he gave me six months more.
Posts: 146
|
Post by mecu18b on Nov 4, 2012 5:09:40 GMT -8
HMMMMMMMMM sounds like what ive been saying all along... ![]() |
|
|
|
Post by catt on Nov 4, 2012 5:47:10 GMT -8
The Chinese government decreed sometime last year that the workers get a raise in wages.Just like in the US that money has to come from somewhere.
Only reasons these jobs went to China in the first place is because our wages rose faster then the other countries.It was simply cheaper to send the jobs offshore than pay North American wages.
|
|
|
|
Post by calzephyr on Nov 4, 2012 6:10:21 GMT -8
It seems like the new prices are going to prevent a lot of modelers from buying the new products which will lead to smaller runs and higher prices. Larry ------------------------------ And here's the rub the "experts" failed to mention. Bachmann keeps improving their product and could flood the market with low detailed locomotives with DCC and Tsunami sound and generic freight cars at the fraction of the cost of their competitors. Guys,Don't sneer to much as the other manufacturers are force to keep raising prices Bachmann can hold their price line since their locomotives and cars are less detailed. I've seen the Bachmann GP9 with added details..It didn't look all that bad and one could mistake it for a older Atlas GP7 or a P2K GP7/9 at normal layout viewing. So...Maybe we might have to sharpen our dormant locomotive detailing skills. Of course by building a smaller layout or ISL one could stick with the higher end cars and locomotives. Or One could stock pile the needed locomotives and cars while they are still "affordable"... Or We can use what we already have. Larry I believe you have summed it up very well. If Bachmann continues to make steam models like the EM1, they will sell a lot of future models for sure. I was surprised at the good running qualities of the EM1 when I read about it in MR and other posts. Maybe they have learned we will accept good running models and add the detail and good casting as required. We should all start emailing Bachmann for future models and go back to adding detail as needed! Larry |
|
|
|
Post by riogrande on Nov 4, 2012 6:42:55 GMT -8
Or One could stock pile the needed locomotives and cars while they are still "affordable"... The above two sound good to me. Athearn, for example has produced a fairly wide range of nice SP/SSW/D&RGW tunnel motors and SD45's. What they have made so far is really enough to keep me going and fill a sizable roster for years to come. I couldn't keep up financially with the pace of production, but I've been catching up while the production slowdown/stoppage has been in effect. But if the prices did continue to sky rocket, my purchases would drop off accordingly. There are still a few more loco's I want that are recent past production but I really can't complain much about what I've been able to build up... The recent release of CZ cars have hit me as I wanted to add a few more of those and they aren't cheap but at least this run has given fans an alternative to the scalper prices. So I am stockpiling and really have about enough that I should only need bits and pieces filled in. My next major step will be to find a place to live that I can afford and have a little space - even enough space for a 5x9 layout - just something little. Thats works well if we've already have a decent collection, which probably applies to many of us. Thats why at this point the high prices of the HQ models isn't as hard hitting to me as it might be to others. Like many, I love the new HQ models coming out, but I can just pick up one here and one there since I have a sizable fleet already, and enjoy them singly rather than the past where I've read about people buying 4 or 6 or even dozens of models. |
|
|
|
Post by spookyac47 on Nov 4, 2012 8:12:57 GMT -8
I remember when Kadee first came out with their HO scale RTR cars, everyone gasped at the price and adamantly declared that there was no way they would pay that much for a single boxcar or hopper.
40 Foot PS-1 Boxcars
First release 1998(?), cost $28.95
Latest release, cost $32.95 - $36.95
50 Foot PS-1 Boxcars
First release 2000(?), cost $28.95
Latest release, cost $35.95 - $40.95
50 Ton ARR "Standard" Open Bay Hoppers
First release 2006(?), cost $40.95
Latest release, cost $41.95 - $43.95
PS-2 Two Bay Hoppers
First release 2003(?), cost $38.95
Latest release, cost $41.95 - $43.95
They also still manufacture undecorated kits for the few that choose to go that route.
From the Kadee website . . .
Kadee® still creates and utilizes equipment that other manufactures have junked. We have modified and made machines to meet our needs all the while still manufacturing and distributing over 600 different products all made entirely in our plant in White City, Oregon. This includes our packaging, printed materials, and final finished goods. This facility actually houses a Die-cast Dept, Plastic Injection Dept, Paint/Tampo Print Dept., Machine shop, Full Print Shop, Graphics Dept., R & D Dept, Warehouse, Shipping & Receiving and sales office all under one 22,500 Square ft building. Truly, we do EVERYTHING IN HOUSE.
Kadee® is one of the only manufacturers to entirely make there products from raw materials, molds, assembly and packaging left in the USA.
Kadee® currently serves over 1100 registered Authorized Dealers, 34 Distributors worldwide.
Admittedly, they have a small offering of rolling stock but it appears to continue to sell and meet the needs of those who model that era that the rolling stock can fit into . . .
Admittedly, the creation of and continued production of a few styles of rolling stock is not as complex and costly as developing locomotives and larger cross sections of rolling stock . . . but, they continue the business and do so with everything being done in the United States.
Around 1972, Kadee started producing N Scale products and continues to do so under the Micro Train brand, which now includes Z scale, Nn3 and HOn3 products. They also list locomotives and passenger cars. I am not as familiar with the Microscale line but it is advertised as being "Proudly made in America"
|
|
|
|
Post by Brakie on Nov 4, 2012 8:52:54 GMT -8
To follow up on Don's post I will add KD's sister company Micro-Trains still makes their N Scale products in Talent, OR.
Seems if two companies can still produce their products here why can't the others?
|
|
|
|
Post by alco539 on Nov 4, 2012 10:31:43 GMT -8
Of course I can't say for sure, but start-up costs are high to buy the machines to make parts for trains. Kadee/MT I have been in the business for a lot of years. They have die casting machines and injection molding machines already. If they were to start their operations today, it may not be possible. I'll wager, that most of those types machines aren't made in the USA anymore.
Tool and die making is is easier with EDM and CNC machines, but I'll bet Kadee/MT still have some "old school" tool and die makers working for them too. That profession isn't something taught in most schools these days, maybe in China??? A complex issue, but I'm all for bring manufacturing back to the USA. However, it's not likely, unless something major happens in the world.
Regards Charley.
|
|
|
|
Post by rapidotrains on Nov 4, 2012 11:33:46 GMT -8
It seems like the new prices are going to prevent a lot of modelers from buying the new products which will lead to smaller runs and higher prices. Larry ------------------------------ And here's the rub the "experts" failed to mention. Bachmann keeps improving their product and could flood the market with low detailed locomotives with DCC and Tsunami sound and generic freight cars at the fraction of the cost of their competitors. Guys,Don't sneer to much as the other manufacturers are force to keep raising prices Bachmann can hold their price line since their locomotives and cars are less detailed. Bachmann can hold their price line because they are entirely vertical. Bachmann is owned by Kader, a Chinese company. The same company owns the factories where the goods are produced. It is the US and UK offices that are the "offshore" aspect of Bachmann. I have actually received an email asking "why can't your stuff be made in the USA, like Bachmann in Philadelphia?" They guy probably had a heart attack when I replied that Bachmann has been owned by a Chinese company since 1988. Because Kader is such an enormous company and makes so many different products, the more profitable lines can subsidize the less profitable ones. Nobody will ever know if Kader is making any money selling a sound-equipped locomotive for under $100 wholesale. They may be making money on that particular item or they may not. But I guarantee you that no model train company based in North America can do so. Best regards, Jason |
|
|
|
Post by mlehman on Nov 4, 2012 12:15:39 GMT -8
I think we attribute way too much power to the Chinese in these discussions and not nearly enough to the decisions made here on this continent. Model railroading is affected by management practices just like much of the rest of North America industry.
I say this not to single out any single company. I certainly don't intend it as a diss on Jason/Rapido, who runs a class operation in every way. But that's because he cares about every step of the process and that's pretty unusual in the model railroad industry right now. Jason's been quite open about the difficulties and effort it takes to manage his supply chain and deliver the outstanding models to Rapido's customers.
In fact, Jason's approach to this is a good one to use as an example. He has to put a lot of effort into managing things that you could easily lose control of unless you make the effort to remain involved in this like Rapido does. Most of the time, other companies just send the specs, order up n-amount and specify the delivery arrangements. The reject rates can be pretty high before anyone cares enough to fix things with many. You the consumer are expected to put up with that as one of the "benefits" of modern manufacturing.
Most in this industry aren't like Jason -- or Kadee either, for that matter. They alll tend to be run by model RR enthusiasts who also happen to be pretty good bean counters. And bean counting has been the current fad for the last forty years in management practices. The idea is to (supposedly) stick to one's core competency, contract everything possible out to vendors, and rake in the cash with sharp-penciled accounting. Short term profit trumps most considerations about long term issues. The trade-off is loss of control over many things in the process. The people who build stuff only care about the paycheck and nothing more, as do most others along the way.Sure, they're all playing with trains, but why make 100% profit on a $10 BlueBox when you can make 125% on a $40 RTR Made in China?
Price to the consumer matters little in this equation. And I certainly agree with those who say, "Build a kit" or "scratch it!" But you don't hear much about that when most discussions on this happen. People want RTR cheap and feel offended when they don't get it.
Folks, they don't care so long as they keep turning over RTR stuff to people who can afford it and raking in pretty decent profits, whatever the wages are in China -- or here for that matter. And realistically, if there's anything RTR you REALLY need, you can afford it if you watch your budget and not try to get one of everything that arrived this month that briefly struck your fancy.
What it is is that the model railroad industry is just part of wider social trends and details like RTR vs kits are way below the radar of decisions on pricing and production. Fact is, most in the industry don't want to bother with hiring people, period. And that's a reasonable choice in many circumstances. They just want to "make" trains. But if we don't hire people here, then who's going to buy model trains in any form. That guy flipping burgers at MickeyD's? Probably not.
If we live in a nation where most model manufacturers -- or any other industries -- are more like Athearn than like Kadee, yep, that will eventually kill the hobby through the lack of disposable income, because many don't want to pay you and me enough to continue in this or any other hobby. But our hobby is a tiny niche within far larger trends, buffeted by forces that are far beyond our decision to RTR or not with an item we want.
|
|
|
|
Post by Brakie on Nov 4, 2012 13:06:02 GMT -8
Jason,I'm well aware who owns Bachman and IMHO that gives them a edge on the playing field.
----------------------------
Jason: Nobody will ever know if Kader is making any money selling a sound-equipped locomotive for under $100 wholesale. They may be making money on that particular item or they may not.
----------------------------
I seriously doubt they are losing money since no company can do that for very long and stay in business even with other assets.
Here's why.
Let's look at the Bachmann GP7.
Basically you're buying a near blank shell with a drive and DCC or DCC/sound and I suspect its the lower production cost per locomotive since there is no grab irons and other prototype details like you would find on the higher detailed locomotives which as you know is labor intensive which I'm sure drives up the production costs per locomotive.
As I mention before on the Atlas forum I wonder how many shells can be made with a ton of material? What the unit cost is per motor when thousands are ordered by the gaylord box?
Of course no manufacturer will give out that private information.
BTW..Those Geeps and RS3 Will be released with sound and will sell for far less then their competitors at street..
Is such models good,bad or down right ugly?
The answer remains to be seen.
Best,
Larry
|
|
|
|
Post by carrman on Nov 4, 2012 13:21:30 GMT -8
Something else for the Bachmann worshipers to consider: You can't rely Bachmann to consistently delivery a quality product. Also, as the product ages, the parts support dries up damn quickly. All Bachmann is supplying us with is disposable trains.
|
|
|
|
Post by riogrande on Nov 4, 2012 14:01:58 GMT -8
Something else for the Bachmann worshipers to consider: You can't rely Bachmann to consistently delivery a quality product. Also, as the product ages, the parts support dries up damn quickly. All Bachmann is supplying us with is disposable trains. I can't speak diffinitively about Bachmann, but I can say that from my observations over the past 20 years, they haven't made much that I was interested in, the quality was always too low. I flirted with the F40PH Amtrack diesels but sold the two I owned as soon as the Walthers F40PH came out. I can say that I'm not a Bachmann worshipper - that should be evident from the above comments. The anecdotal evidence does point to a slight to modest improvement of their HO diesel line in the past 5 or 6 years. If I modeled previous to the mid-1960's, I probably try out their D&RGW geep or RS-3 as I have read decent things about them. The GP40 done by Bachmann in large Rio Grande - the logo doesn't look right so no consideration. Time will tell whether or not the newer stuff is disposable or not. |
|
|
|
Post by calzephyr on Nov 4, 2012 14:42:41 GMT -8
I remember when Kadee first came out with their HO scale RTR cars, everyone gasped at the price and adamantly declared that there was no way they would pay that much for a single boxcar or hopper. 40 Foot PS-1 Boxcars First release 1998(?), cost $28.95 Latest release, cost $32.95 - $36.95 50 Foot PS-1 Boxcars First release 2000(?), cost $28.95 Latest release, cost $35.95 - $40.95 50 Ton ARR "Standard" Open Bay Hoppers First release 2006(?), cost $40.95 Latest release, cost $41.95 - $43.95 PS-2 Two Bay Hoppers First release 2003(?), cost $38.95 Latest release, cost $41.95 - $43.95 They also still manufacture undecorated kits for the few that choose to go that route. From the Kadee website . . . Kadee® still creates and utilizes equipment that other manufactures have junked. We have modified and made machines to meet our needs all the while still manufacturing and distributing over 600 different products all made entirely in our plant in White City, Oregon. This includes our packaging, printed materials, and final finished goods. This facility actually houses a Die-cast Dept, Plastic Injection Dept, Paint/Tampo Print Dept., Machine shop, Full Print Shop, Graphics Dept., R & D Dept, Warehouse, Shipping & Receiving and sales office all under one 22,500 Square ft building. Truly, we do EVERYTHING IN HOUSE.
Kadee® is one of the only manufacturers to entirely make there products from raw materials, molds, assembly and packaging left in the USA.
Kadee® currently serves over 1100 registered Authorized Dealers, 34 Distributors worldwide. Admittedly, they have a small offering of rolling stock but it appears to continue to sell and meet the needs of those who model that era that the rolling stock can fit into . . . Admittedly, the creation of and continued production of a few styles of rolling stock is not as complex and costly as developing locomotives and larger cross sections of rolling stock . . . but, they continue the business and do so with everything being done in the United States. Around 1972, Kadee started producing N Scale products and continues to do so under the Micro Train brand, which now includes Z scale, Nn3 and HOn3 products. They also list locomotives and passenger cars. I am not as familiar with the Microscale line but it is advertised as being "Proudly made in America" Don I was one of those people who did buy into the prices of the Kadee cars when they came out. Now I own so many of their 40' boxcars since they are the mainstay of my forties and fifties era. They are made in this country and they are top notch in my book. The price has not gone up that much in all of those years since they first came on the market. Kadee is a quality product for sure and is made here. Larry |
|
|
|
Post by calzephyr on Nov 4, 2012 14:45:50 GMT -8
Something else for the Bachmann worshipers to consider: You can't rely Bachmann to consistently delivery a quality product. Also, as the product ages, the parts support dries up damn quickly. All Bachmann is supplying us with is disposable trains. I don't purchase Bachmann normally since I have other models of the items they make, but the EM1 did receive good reviews for the running qualities. I was hoping this might be a change in their products that could carry on to other future lines. The new diesels should be a good test of their on going quality. The recent switcher was a big hit with a lot of people. Larry |
|
|
|
Post by carrman on Nov 4, 2012 15:06:50 GMT -8
Bachmann has the ability to make really nice stuff. The problem is getting them to do that for the US market.
|
|
|
|
Post by Brakie on Nov 4, 2012 15:53:18 GMT -8
Something else for the Bachmann worshipers to consider: You can't rely Bachmann to consistently delivery a quality product. Also, as the product ages, the parts support dries up damn quickly. All Bachmann is supplying us with is disposable trains. I haven't seen anybody worshiping Bachmann in this topic.. Like 'em or hate 'em Bachmann must be a thorn in the backsides of the other manufacturers and they won't be going away because the other manufacturers prices is getting close to $200.00 for a DCC ready locomotive.. I've seen the DCC on board GP7,RS3,GP30,GP35 and GP40 run and they are very smooth runners and a far cry from the older train set,white box and early Spectrum. A A-B-B-A consist of NYC lightening stripe Sharknoses trailing 35 NYC hopper cars is a awesome sight to behold. |
|
|
|
Post by calzephyr on Nov 4, 2012 16:42:21 GMT -8
Something else for the Bachmann worshipers to consider: You can't rely Bachmann to consistently delivery a quality product. Also, as the product ages, the parts support dries up damn quickly. All Bachmann is supplying us with is disposable trains. I haven't seen anybody worshiping Bachmann in this topic.. Like 'em or hate 'em Bachmann must be a thorn in the backsides of the other manufacturers and they won't be going away because the other manufacturers prices is getting close to $200.00 for a DCC ready locomotive.. I've seen the DCC on board GP7,RS3,GP30,GP35 and GP40 run and they are very smooth runners and a far cry from the older train set,white box and early Spectrum. A A-B-B-A consist of NYC lightening stripe Sharknoses trailing 35 NYC hopper cars is a awesome sight to behold. Larry I give them credit for having that factory and the production capability to turn out models, probably quicker than anyone else in our hobby at this time. The EM1 was a big surprise since modelers had been asking for a Yellowstone for a long time and they made it and sold many of those. I have a wait and see attitude with them having purchased one of their models ten years ago for comparison and it did not compare well at that time to any other manufacturer. I did not purchase the EM1 only because I have other Yellowstone brass models and did not want to start detailing the EM1 at this time. If they come out with a model I need or want in the future, I would purchase one of their models for a comparison test again and add detail to it. They do not have the best reputation for the past twenty years, but I think they are getting better recently. Larry |
|
|
|
Post by Brakie on Nov 4, 2012 17:14:57 GMT -8
They do not have the best reputation for the past twenty years, but I think they are getting better recently.
Larry
---------------------------
I think the key word here is they're getting better.
As I mention on the Atlas forum I seen Bachmann locomotives run for hours during week of the county fair,tractor show and the train show open house so,I'm just reporting what I see with my eyes..
6 Years ago I wouldn't even give Bachmann a second glance but,the newer DCC on board locomotives has my attention as a cheaper club locomotive..
I have a Bachmann 70 Tonner that is probably the slowest engine I own since I set the speed steps,momentum and start voltage with my MRC Tech 6.You'll get no complaints from me concerning this engine.
|
|
|
|
Post by calzephyr on Nov 4, 2012 18:02:51 GMT -8
They do not have the best reputation for the past twenty years, but I think they are getting better recently. Larry --------------------------- I think the key word here is they're getting better. As I mention on the Atlas forum I seen Bachmann locomotives run for hours during week of the county fair,tractor show and the train show open house so,I'm just reporting what I see with my eyes.. 6 Years ago I wouldn't even give Bachmann a second glance but,the newer DCC on board locomotives has my attention as a cheaper club locomotive.. I have a Bachmann 70 Tonner that is probably the slowest engine I own since I set the speed steps,momentum and start voltage with my MRC Tech 6.You'll get no complaints from me concerning this engine. Larry I have heard great things about their latest ALCO S4 switcher and Micro Mark had them on special a couple of months ago for less than $100 with sound. I passed on those but my friends got several and they do run and sound very good. It seems Bachmann probably imported a lot of those and they are a bargain if you want the S4 with sound. Like we have said, they have improved a lot and will probably be a less expensive alternate to other imports. I don't mind adding details if the basic model is good, but cutting off molded on handrails and certain detail requires a complete paint job. Some of the older models did not have the detail but the dimple was there for the locating the handrails correctly. That was a nice feature and I would much prefer that to any molded on items. If they continue to bring in products that run well and sell them in their starter kits, more kids might grow up and be in our hobby in future years! I have heard a lot of sad stories about train sets in the past. Larry |
|
|
|
Post by atsfan on Nov 4, 2012 18:17:23 GMT -8
I wish Kadee would make more modern cars. I own none because they are all transition era. However, I would be much poorer if they did. So maybe that is a good thing.........  |
|
|
|
Post by calzephyr on Nov 4, 2012 18:24:00 GMT -8
I wish Kadee would make more modern cars. I own none because they are all transition era. However, I would be much poorer if they did. So maybe that is a good thing......... Kadee started with the transition and that is bad for anyone the models much later or modern rail cars for sure. The older cars is probably the real reason I purchased from Kadee and the fact they are really detailed helped also. Intermountain makes a lot of both new and old era cars. Maybe with the new tooling being done by CAD and other computer aided software, you might see some later era cars from them in the future. I think they would sell well but not at a low price. Larry |
|
|
|
Post by espeenut on Nov 4, 2012 21:53:33 GMT -8
Bachmann is also Spectrum, and if the Spectrum Shay and Climax model steamers are any indication, then Bachmann has a ways to go to ensure even moderately long term operating ability and providing customer support for their product line. I've had two Climax and one Shay, all three have inoperable running gear and are relegated to being static display models, Bachmann can't or won't fix them, I sent them one of the Climax models that had broken running gear and they sent back a Shay along with a note saying the Climax couldn't be repaired, please enjoy your new Shay...
|
|
