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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2018 8:36:01 GMT -8
So I was discussing today with my friend the possibilities of creating some CB&Q 3209 quad hoppers. I thought it would be cool to build a few. Maybe wait until Exactrail reran some undecorated models and get those to start with. So the conversation went on and I started looking at prototype photos. That is when the brakes went on and killed the project/ idea. It is also when I realized that all the Exactrail quads in BN, GN and CB&Q are WRONG!
What a let down. I basically blame myself for not doing my research before buying about 40 of them. I was thinking of returning them to send a message to Exactrail about fobbies. Although, it is my fault for not doing my research so I will keep them to punish myself. I was thinking about getting at least 15 more, but not anymore. For this kind of modeling, I am not going to invest in foobs. I will keep these foobs and run these foobs, but the wind has definitely been taken out of my sails about Exactrail and their products.
What is the problem? All the BN, GN & CB&Q cars have the wrong brake equipment configuration as well as the wrong door lock mechanisms. From what my friend suggested. Exactrail probably took the D&RGW 3483 car and said it was close enough for the BN, GN & CB&Q cars. Just another way for Exactrail to make a buck at the uneducated expense or of course, those that do not care and are happy with foobs. Me not knowing a whole lot about freight cars fell for it. I trusted Exactrail to do the right thing and not produce foobs. I put my trust in the wrong place and it is a lesson learned. Before I make anymore freight car purchases and especially before large purchases. I will do my homework and verify the car is correct first.
Brian
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Post by fr8kar on Sept 20, 2018 8:41:13 GMT -8
Who makes the correct cars, Brian?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2018 8:45:24 GMT -8
Who makes the correct cars, Brian? Nobody. These cars have some unusual door locks. Instead of the lock being where the door meets the bay, they are behind the bay and have a mechanism that releases the door from between the left and right bay. The brake mechanism is made by Exactrail, but they used the through the car horizontal mechanism instead of the vertical mechanism that runs under the car between the bays. So in reality, Exactrail COULD have gotten the car closer by using the correct brake mechanism, but chose not to go that extra bit to do that. Brian |
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Post by fr8kar on Sept 20, 2018 9:07:32 GMT -8
That's a shame that they have the right bits to do the car's brake system correctly but didn't get it right apparently due to a lapse in research. How difficult would it be to replace the brake system? Does Exactrail make the car configured the way you want in another roadname? In other words, would it be easier to keep the paint and replace the brakes or keep the brakes on a correct car and strip/repaint?
If the door locks aren't made by anyone, is that something you could 3D print or build a master and cast multiples of?
I understand it's frustrating that the car isn't done correctly, but it may be the best starting point for a correct model. Waiting for the car to be done correctly by Exactrail in the future may result in some serious down time without the desired car. Same goes for waiting for another manufacturer to do it right.
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Post by bn4180 on Sept 20, 2018 9:10:28 GMT -8
I was also disappointed when I discovered that the Exactrail cars are not made out of steel! Plastic is such a foobie material for model freight cars.
Tom Bacarella
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2018 9:17:40 GMT -8
The 3209 quads can be built correctly with parts from both cars. The undecorated 3483 quads are needed with 7" cut down from the top chord. The brake rigging; cylinder; and clevis from the 3737 quad, (which is 100% correct) will drop right into the 3483 car. The weight used for the 3737 with the channel cut out for the brake equipment will also fit the 3483 cars; as I am doing three 3209 quads from undecorated 3483 hoppers.
I discovered the parts were inter-changeable when converting the 3209 cars a few years back...and was experimenting. The whole 3737 under carriage will fit into the 3483 car without modification. The only subtle changes would be to install the clevis and linkage on the brake wheel housing.
ExactRail could get these cars right simply by combining the parts from both cars if they ever did a new run of BN cars. It certainly can explain why the BN cars are still in stock...as they did an excellent job on their printing and artwork; but I would surmise the BN/CB&Q guys passed because the brake rigging wasn't correct on them(?).
Similarly; I see people calling for more foobie Tangent Scale Models 3600 cu ft. UP/Beth quads in L & N and other foobie paint schemes. If Dave does the foobies again, it will kill of the chances of someone doing the car "right" in HO scale. Plus, Dave really needs to invest some cash into new 100 ton trucks...the UP cars are supposed to have S-2 100 ton trucks (I think) or ASF Ride control trucks...not the "N-11" trucks that are under them...The same holds true for my MP 4750's...but I digress.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2018 9:28:10 GMT -8
That's a shame that they have the right bits to do the car's brake system correctly but didn't get it right apparently due to a lapse in research. How difficult would it be to replace the brake system? Does Exactrail make the car configured the way you want in another roadname? In other words, would it be easier to keep the paint and replace the brakes or keep the brakes on a correct car and strip/repaint? If the door locks aren't made by anyone, is that something you could 3D print or build a master and cast multiples of? I understand it's frustrating that the car isn't done correctly, but it may be the best starting point for a correct model. Waiting for the car to be done correctly by Exactrail in the future may result in some serious down time without the desired car. Same goes for waiting for another manufacturer to do it right. The Exactrail 3737 has the correct brake mechanism, but wrong cuft capacity. If the parts were available, it would not be that hard to replace them. The difficult part would be disassembling an RTR car with it all glued together. But the parts are not available. Then of course, you would have to make the correct decals if you were to strip the car. If the parts were available as well as the decals, I would reluctantly rebuild the cars. But I am not going to do it from scratch with parts that may or may not fit. I just rebuilt the brake system on two of my cars with Tangent parts and I will not do anymore. I am just going to have to live with it for now and possibly forever. Yes. The door mechanism could be 3D printed. But first you need to know how it exactly works. I do not. I can only see the exterior parts. It almost looks like wine locks and two pipes. I do not have closeups of the parts necessary. Yes Tom. I was extremely disappointed too when I found out they were made from plastic. Brian |
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Post by brakie on Sept 20, 2018 11:19:11 GMT -8
Brian,I too was disappointed when I bought my ER Southern boxcars only to find it was (ugh!) plastic with a lading of stale air.
Be that has it may or may not be(a pondering point I suppose) I was wondering how big would this detail be and can it be noticed?
I have Atlas cars I'm afraid to change the couplers because of the fine details
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Post by slowfreight on Sept 20, 2018 18:58:53 GMT -8
Brian, without photos, I'm missing how significant the difference is in appearance. But as we discussed at STLRPM, there's a certain amount of compromise that goes into getting an actual layout built vs. a single contest model. So, when you finally get the layout going you'll use some amount of selective compression plus off-the shelf kits and your structures won't all be accurate or to scale. Therefore, when an entire train of these things is rolling on the layout will the brake problems and gate mechanisms recede into the background on a cut of weathered cars during an operating session? That would be modestly tolerable vs. not having the train at all, or spending a few hundred hours on correcting details when a layout is going to require other compromises.
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Post by simulatortrain on Sept 20, 2018 19:38:28 GMT -8
Has anyone done the 3209 conversion, and were the 3483s actually available as kits? I couldn't find any reference to that being true.
I'd like to do a 3209 as WM 90000, the corrosion test car and their only 4-bay.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2018 3:33:47 GMT -8
Has anyone done the 3209 conversion, and were the 3483s actually available as kits? I couldn't find any reference to that being true. I'd like to do a 3209 as WM 90000, the corrosion test car and their only 4-bay. Yes, and yes. I have three undecorated 3483 hoppers from their last run of the model. They must have under-produced the undecorated cars for the last run...as they sold out quickly. A few years ago, during the STL RPM meet; Brian Banna and I collaborated on creating the 3209 Bethlehem Steel car from the 3483 quad hopper. The 3209 is basically an earlier and lower-capacity version of the 3483 hopper...IMO. It shares the same wheelbase; length over strikers; etc., It is seven inches shorter in height than the 3483. So, Brian devised a set of styrene inserts and he cut the cars down the required 7 scale inches here in my shop during the "RPM Week". The car is a match with the exception of one ladder grab near the top chord of the car. Otherwise, it's a beautiful rendition. There are two versions possible...The later version with the brake rigging through the center sill of the car; or the version with the vertical clevis and the brake rigging that is "under-slung" down the center sill; and is visible under the car. The 3737 quad undec kit will provide most of these parts. The hopper door mechanism is also optional. The enterprise locking system that comes on the car is one option; or the Wine single door locks that come with 3737 are another. All parts are interchangeable between the two models. ExactRail has produced an excellent couple of models; and they would not have to go far to achieve the cars that Brian desires from their existing tooling. Regardless, their cars are the BEST 100 ton coal hoppers on the market to date. Their ASF Ride control truck is superb as well. The best 100 ton truck on the market at present. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2018 4:30:21 GMT -8
Brian, without photos, I'm missing how significant the difference is in appearance. But as we discussed at STLRPM, there's a certain amount of compromise that goes into getting an actual layout built vs. a single contest model. So, when you finally get the layout going you'll use some amount of selective compression plus off-the shelf kits and your structures won't all be accurate or to scale. Therefore, when an entire train of these things is rolling on the layout will the brake problems and gate mechanisms recede into the background on a cut of weathered cars during an operating session? That would be modestly tolerable vs. not having the train at all, or spending a few hundred hours on correcting details when a layout is going to require other compromises. True. As much as it bothers me as a single car. Compromises are a daily part of our hobby. We have to make that decision to represent what we want. In this case I will keep the train and enjoy it for what it represents. I'll get over it.  The part that is sad is lets say as the car stands now it is 70% accurate. They could have made the car like 90% accurate if they would have just used the proper brake rigging of which they already had parts made for. Just assemble the correct parts instead of the incorrect parts. It is what it is and the cars I have will run for a long time. Brian |
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Post by simulatortrain on Sept 21, 2018 7:50:24 GMT -8
Has anyone done the 3209 conversion, and were the 3483s actually available as kits? I couldn't find any reference to that being true. I'd like to do a 3209 as WM 90000, the corrosion test car and their only 4-bay. Yes, and yes. I have three undecorated 3483 hoppers from their last run of the model. They must have under-produced the undecorated cars for the last run...as they sold out quickly. A few years ago, during the STL RPM meet; Brian Banna and I collaborated on creating the 3209 Bethlehem Steel car from the 3483 quad hopper. The 3209 is basically an earlier and lower-capacity version of the 3483 hopper...IMO. It shares the same wheelbase; length over strikers; etc., It is seven inches shorter in height than the 3483. So, Brian devised a set of styrene inserts and he cut the cars down the required 7 scale inches here in my shop during the "RPM Week". The car is a match with the exception of one ladder grab near the top chord of the car. Otherwise, it's a beautiful rendition. There are two versions possible...The later version with the brake rigging through the center sill of the car; or the version with the vertical clevis and the brake rigging that is "under-slung" down the center sill; and is visible under the car. The 3737 quad undec kit will provide most of these parts. The hopper door mechanism is also optional. The enterprise locking system that comes on the car is one option; or the Wine single door locks that come with 3737 are another. All parts are interchangeable between the two models. ExactRail has produced an excellent couple of models; and they would not have to go far to achieve the cars that Brian desires from their existing tooling. Regardless, their cars are the BEST 100 ton coal hoppers on the market to date. Their ASF Ride control truck is superb as well. The best 100 ton truck on the market at present. Do you have a picture of the finished car? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2018 8:14:16 GMT -8
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 21, 2018 8:27:01 GMT -8
The best you can do is more than adequate. Good work! Ed |
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Post by simulatortrain on Sept 21, 2018 9:14:59 GMT -8
Thanks! That looks great. Now I need to find some kits. |
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Post by roadkill on Sept 21, 2018 12:58:25 GMT -8
Has anyone done the 3209 conversion, and were the 3483s actually available as kits? I couldn't find any reference to that being true. I'd like to do a 3209 as WM 90000, the corrosion test car and their only 4-bay. I did that car many years ago using the crude Walthers kit and would like to build it again. |
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Post by slowfreight on Sept 21, 2018 16:08:59 GMT -8
In this case I will keep the train and enjoy it for what it represents. I'll get over it. The part that is sad is lets say as the car stands now it is 70% accurate. They could have made the car like 90% accurate if they would have just used the proper brake rigging of which they already had parts made for. Just assemble the correct parts instead of the incorrect parts. It is what it is and the cars I have will run for a long time. Brian I am totally in agreement there. If a manufacturer is going to the effort and can actually get it 90%, it's frustrating when they don't. Even worse is when the mee-too manufacturers make the same flaws--like when both Walthers and Kato screwed up the same detail on their respective bilevels. |
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Post by brakie on Sept 21, 2018 19:21:36 GMT -8
Brian, After checking the photo I can fully agree those door locks should not have been omitted since they are in plain view on the hopper door..
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