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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2019 11:37:27 GMT -8
Seeing as this has caused a great deal of angst, and the previous thread was locked, there is an update in the Rapido Newsletter out today (#117) that subscribers like myself should have now, should be available to everyone in a couple of days.
A direct quote from the newsletter (my emphasis):
""
• This does not affect any DC models. It is only a problem in some DCC models, but not all of them.
• The problem, as far as we know, seems to be caused by some kind of interaction between the ESU V5 decoder, the motherboard and the motor. It is not purely a motor issue. We believe something on the motherboard is misinterpreting the commands from the decoder, which then permanently frizzes the motor.
• This issue will not affect any other Rapido models. The B36-7 comes from a different factory and does not have any running issues. The RS-11 comes from the same factory but does not have the same motherboard. However, just to be safe, we will test more than 100 RS-11 models when they arrive next month. If any are found to have this problem, we will delay the shipment and replace all the motherboards before the locomotives leave our warehouse
""
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Post by es80ac on Oct 28, 2019 5:20:03 GMT -8
glad to know this. Unfortunately I just bought a new DCC RS18 recently, but have not run it yet, I am guessing I should expect to see issues with it as well.
Does Rapido know how to fix this yet? I don't want to send my engine back (which is going to be a costly pain), then have it returned to develop the same problme. thanks
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Post by canrailfan on Oct 28, 2019 5:41:19 GMT -8
Most motherboards only pass the motor connections from the decoder to the motor. There's no 'interaction' by the motherboard.
This implies there may be a programming mistake in the Rapido V5 decoder with the motor control CVs that is causing progressive damage to the motor.
For those who have not yet run their RS-18s very much or at all it would be best to not run them until the problem becomes better defined.
It is possible for Rapido to provide a new V5 CV file that could be loaded by shops and customers who have access to a LokProgrammer. Having to send a new model back to Rapido is frustrating many customers.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 5:51:09 GMT -8
glad to know this. Unfortunately I just bought a new DCC RS18 recently, but have not run it yet, I am guessing I should expect to see issues with it as well. Does Rapido know how to fix this yet? I don't want to send my engine back (which is going to be a costly pain), then have it returned to develop the same problme. thanks
If you read what Rapido has stated, it only is causing problems in some RS18s so you could just as equally have no problems.
The only other thing the newsletter says is that they and the factory are still investigating the issue, and have been working on it for over a week now.
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Post by es80ac on Oct 28, 2019 13:32:12 GMT -8
Most motherboards only pass the motor connections from the decoder to the motor. There's no 'interaction' by the motherboard. This implies there may be a programming mistake in the Rapido V5 decoder with the motor control CVs that is causing progressive damage to the motor. For those who have not yet run their RS-18s very much or at all it would be best to not run them until the problem becomes better defined. It is possible for Rapido to provide a new V5 CV file that could be loaded by shops and customers who have access to a LokProgrammer. Having to send a new model back to Rapido is frustrating many customers. Yeap, especially since they are in Canada. I already sent my LRC back to them once, if I have to send RS 18 back, it is going to put me off buying more Rapido in the future. |
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Post by luebeck3102 on Oct 28, 2019 14:16:56 GMT -8
There was reports by a few people out there with motor issues on the SW1200RS and the Royal Hudson along with the RS18. FWIW, the SW1200RS had the Select decoders while the Royal Hudsons and the RS18s have the new V5s. All three were apparently made at the LRC factory.
The B36-7s are coming from the newer Rapido factory so they shouldn't have the running issues. I also heard that the latest FP7 run doesn't have these issues either.
Does anyone have this motor issue with other decoder brands? I'm curious to hear.
IMO, this sounds more of a motor problem/factory batch problem than a decoder or a motherboard problem. If this was a decoder issue, you would be hearing about these issues more especially on the more recent Rapido models, or even the newer Atlas and ScaleTrains locomotives with the new Loksound 5 decoders. I don't know how anyone would be able to say this is just solely a decoder issue since it's only happening at one of the two factory.
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Post by biggazza on Oct 28, 2019 14:59:50 GMT -8
Just saw the update on Facebook regarding the RS-18 issues.
I have a DC version with the intention of installing a SoundTraxx 21 pin sound decoder as this is my preferred brand.
If the issue with the RS-18 is the ESU decoder then I expect no problem with the SoundTraxx item, however if the issue is with the oem circuit board then I'm not so sure.
Depending upon the final outcome of what Rapido find I may need to install the SoundTraxx PNP board replacement version.
Not looking forward to tracing all the lighting leads and soldering for that job !!!
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Post by alcoc430 on Oct 28, 2019 15:19:11 GMT -8
There was reports by a few people out there with motor issues on the SW1200RS and the Royal Hudson along with the RS18. FWIW, the SW1200RS had the Select decoders while the Royal Hudsons and the RS18s have the new V5s. All three were apparently made at the LRC factory. The B36-7s are coming from the newer Rapido factory so they shouldn't have the running issues. I also heard that the latest FP7 run doesn't have these issues either. Does anyone have this motor issue with other decoder brands? I'm curious to hear. IMO, this sounds more of a motor problem/factory batch problem than a decoder or a motherboard problem. If this was a decoder issue, you would be hearing about these issues more especially on the more recent Rapido models, or even the newer Atlas and ScaleTrains locomotives with the new Loksound 5 decoders. I don't know how anyone would be able to say this is just solely a decoder issue since it's only happening at one of the two factory. Jason's newsletter states that the interaction between the motherboard and decoderis burning out the motor |
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Post by luebeck3102 on Oct 28, 2019 15:21:55 GMT -8
There was reports by a few people out there with motor issues on the SW1200RS and the Royal Hudson along with the RS18. FWIW, the SW1200RS had the Select decoders while the Royal Hudsons and the RS18s have the new V5s. All three were apparently made at the LRC factory. The B36-7s are coming from the newer Rapido factory so they shouldn't have the running issues. I also heard that the latest FP7 run doesn't have these issues either. Does anyone have this motor issue with other decoder brands? I'm curious to hear. IMO, this sounds more of a motor problem/factory batch problem than a decoder or a motherboard problem. If this was a decoder issue, you would be hearing about these issues more especially on the more recent Rapido models, or even the newer Atlas and ScaleTrains locomotives with the new Loksound 5 decoders. I don't know how anyone would be able to say this is just solely a decoder issue since it's only happening at one of the two factory. Jason's newsletter states that the interaction between the motherboard and decoderis burning out the motor Maybe someone should try replacing the motherboard with like a NixTrainz board and see it that makes a difference. |
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Post by Judge Doom on Oct 28, 2019 16:31:43 GMT -8
There was reports by a few people out there with motor issues on the SW1200RS and the Royal Hudson along with the RS18. FWIW, the SW1200RS had the Select decoders while the Royal Hudsons and the RS18s have the new V5s. All three were apparently made at the LRC factory. The B36-7s are coming from the newer Rapido factory so they shouldn't have the running issues. I also heard that the latest FP7 run doesn't have these issues either. Does anyone have this motor issue with other decoder brands? I'm curious to hear. IMO, this sounds more of a motor problem/factory batch problem than a decoder or a motherboard problem. If this was a decoder issue, you would be hearing about these issues more especially on the more recent Rapido models, or even the newer Atlas and ScaleTrains locomotives with the new Loksound 5 decoders. I don't know how anyone would be able to say this is just solely a decoder issue since it's only happening at one of the two factory. It sounds like, if it's only affecting models from one factory, then it could either be due to the proprietary motherboard/circuit boards being designed by that factory for those models (they are often designed to be loco- or model-specific, i.e. the FP7 having both a main one where the decoder plugs in and a smaller one at the front for all the head-end lighting functions), or a batch of questionable motors that factory has and have been using on their models. But who knows for sure, it could turn out to be how those new decoders are behaving with that specific motor and circuit board combination. It's probably best to wait for Rapido to trace down the exact problems and causes, and lay out a fix. |
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Post by steveturner on Oct 28, 2019 17:06:26 GMT -8
Maybe mentioned but have not seen it posted, what brand are these motors Mabuchi/, or some no name brand?.Steve
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Post by es80ac on Oct 28, 2019 18:19:58 GMT -8
Just saw the update on Facebook regarding the RS-18 issues. I have a DC version with the intention of installing a SoundTraxx 21 pin sound decoder as this is my preferred brand. If the issue with the RS-18 is the ESU decoder then I expect no problem with the SoundTraxx item, however if the issue is with the oem circuit board then I'm not so sure. Depending upon the final outcome of what Rapido find I may need to install the SoundTraxx PNP board replacement version. Not looking forward to tracing all the lighting leads and soldering for that job !!! I went to the Rapido facebook page, but did not see any posts regarding RS-18, is there a different FB page that this discussion is being posted on? I just hope Rapido will provide the satisfactory support to make the customer who bought defective locomotives whole again. |
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Post by canrailfan on Oct 28, 2019 18:59:30 GMT -8
Today I went to open up my RS-18 to look at the motherboard/decoder installation.
This is the first Rapido model I've seen where the shell cannot be removed in the usual fashion, i.e., by removing the couplers and lifting the shell off. To get into this model is much more complicated. The cab, the short hood and the long hood all have to be removed separately. The instructions also recommend removing the handrails entirely (at the end of the instructions).
Those who ordered a DC unit with the intention of using a non-ESU decoder will have their work cut out for them.
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Post by canrailfan on Oct 28, 2019 19:10:21 GMT -8
I went to the Rapido facebook page, but did not see any posts regarding RS-18, is there a different FB page that this discussion is being posted on? I just hope Rapido will provide the satisfactory support to make the customer who bought defective locomotives whole again. Same here. Can't find any RS-18 posts on Rapido's Facebook page since the announcement in 2018. |
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Post by steveturner on Oct 28, 2019 19:52:08 GMT -8
Small blurb on the latest newsletter at their site. Look for newsletters
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Post by canrailfan on Oct 29, 2019 5:38:08 GMT -8
Small blurb on the latest newsletter at their site. Look for newsletters Thanks Steve, I do get the newsletters. Some posts here and in other places have mentioned an update about the RS-18s on Rapido's Facebook page. Can't find anything there however. Hopefully it's not restricted so only Facebook members can see it. I don't use Facebook. |
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Post by riogrande on Oct 29, 2019 5:46:17 GMT -8
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Post by scl1234 on Oct 29, 2019 8:57:34 GMT -8
This is the first Rapido model I've seen where the shell cannot be removed in the usual fashion, i.e., by removing the couplers and lifting the shell off. To get into this model is much more complicated. The cab, the short hood and the long hood all have to be removed separately. Those who ordered a DC unit with the intention of using a non-ESU decoder will have their work cut out for them. <Wonders if this added complexity is by design. Surely my notions are wrong. I'm sure all manufacturers would like to be producing only one version versus both sound and DCC ready. Quite a gamble to conclude that everyone who wants a specific locomotive model will pay up for the sound version or do without. I'm in the latter camp. |
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Post by Judge Doom on Oct 29, 2019 12:37:00 GMT -8
Today I went to open up my RS-18 to look at the motherboard/decoder installation. This is the first Rapido model I've seen where the shell cannot be removed in the usual fashion, i.e., by removing the couplers and lifting the shell off. To get into this model is much more complicated. The cab, the short hood and the long hood all have to be removed separately. The instructions also recommend removing the handrails entirely (at the end of the instructions). Those who ordered a DC unit with the intention of using a non-ESU decoder will have their work cut out for them. Not really: the top roof hatch/dynamic brake section is a separate piece, so those wanting to install a decoder only need to remove that to get access to the main circuitboard and DCC plug. |
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cp9002
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Post by cp9002 on Oct 29, 2019 14:46:06 GMT -8
Today I went to open up my RS-18 to look at the motherboard/decoder installation. This is the first Rapido model I've seen where the shell cannot be removed in the usual fashion, i.e., by removing the couplers and lifting the shell off. To get into this model is much more complicated. The cab, the short hood and the long hood all have to be removed separately. The instructions also recommend removing the handrails entirely (at the end of the instructions). Those who ordered a DC unit with the intention of using a non-ESU decoder will have their work cut out for them. Not really: the top roof hatch/dynamic brake section is a separate piece, so those wanting to install a decoder only need to remove that to get access to the main circuitboard and DCC plug. You can can remove that hatch on most of them. But if it doesn’t seem to want to come off, don’t force it. I had one and one of my friends had one that the hatch had been glued on. The rest of ours were fine. Mine all run fine and they look great. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 19:51:58 GMT -8
Other manufacturers' locos having issues with Loksound decoders?
Yes. I don't know if the decoders are V4 or V5.
I have other make engines equipped with Loksound, running on the MRC Tech 7 in plain dc. At lower speeds running in dc there is sometimes a notable hum or buzz in the sound, and the engines run intermittently, stopping and restarting frequently (lights flashing on and off with the stops and starts). I have to keep the voltage up out of the low speed range for them to run ok. Non-sound versions of the exact same models run just fine in dc.
I do not like Loksound. There appear to have been better dual mode decoders a decade ago than there are now.
Maybe I will be forced to switch to dcc, but then I have engines that won't be easily converted and thus will be unusable.
I do not like BLI's Paragon 2 or 3 engines, and no longer buy or own any, but they seem to outperform the Loksound equipped units.
Jack
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Post by lvrr325 on Oct 29, 2019 23:31:11 GMT -8
On most older DC layouts, DCC is as simple as a double-pole, double-throw toggle to switch from one control to the other, and using your existing track control switches to turn off tracks with DCC engines on them.
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Post by llxlocomotives on Oct 30, 2019 20:08:49 GMT -8
Rapido said the motors were toast because of the “interaction”. I wonder what the condition of the decoder is in. The main function of the mother board is to provide efficient circuit structure, minimizing the amount of wiring. The motor is directly tied to the decoder. It seems that any ”interaction” would impact them both. The decoder is the least tolerant of the two.
Is it possible that this problem exists in all of the mother boards/ et al. The damage sequence may occur at different run times. I got a DC model to experiment with it out of curiosity. I will be installing a Rail Pro module after my testing is done. this tells me to ditch the mother board when I take that step.
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Post by jonklein611 on Oct 31, 2019 2:47:30 GMT -8
Rapido said the motors were toast because of the “interaction”. I wonder what the condition of the decoder is in. The main function of the mother board is to provide efficient circuit structure, minimizing the amount of wiring. The motor is directly tied to the decoder. It seems that any ”interaction” would impact them both. The decoder is the least tolerant of the two. Is it possible that this problem exists in all of the mother boards/ et al. The damage sequence may occur at different run times. I got a DC model to experiment with it out of curiosity. I will be installing a Rail Pro module after my testing is done. this tells me to ditch the mother board when I take that step. The decoder is what provides PWM control for the motor, not the motherboard. If it's just the motor getting smoked, I'l willing to bet it's the decoder not the motherboard. |
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Post by rapidotrains on Oct 31, 2019 6:42:54 GMT -8
Hi all,
At this point we still haven't pinpointed the issue, nor why it is affecting some DCC models and not others. We've got Mohan - who is an elctronics engineer - and a team of people at the factory, motor vendor and PCB vendor working on it. They are also working with ESU to find the solution. We haven't found it yet, but that does not mean we aren't working on it.
I can also assure you - as we said in the newsletter - that we will fix any model that develops the problem.
The observations of motor issues in three models from the LRC factory are correct in that the warranty rate for the SW1200RS, Hudson and now RS-18 have been much higher than normal. The return rate of the 1200RS and Hudson were both around 6%, which is four times the usual return rate. During the same period, the LRC factory delivered the N scale TurboTrain and HO RDC with a return rate below 1%.
The trouble is that all three projects have had completely different issues coming up. We are talking with new motor suppliers.
Mohan is working with the LRC factory to do our best to prevent any further motor issues. We're also using a new PCB vendor going forward.
When we have a solution to the RS-18 problem, we will share it.
Best regards,
Jason
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2019 7:21:24 GMT -8
Kato motors. Good high torque low current draw and reliable. Source those motors. Oh, and quiet too.
Why try and reinvent everything when there is a proven winner already. Unless Kato makes their own motors. Then probably not so easy to get them.
Brian
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Post by cemr5396 on Oct 31, 2019 7:28:53 GMT -8
Kato motors. Good high torque low current draw and reliable. Source those motors. Oh, and quiet too. Why try and reinvent everything when there is a proven winner already. Unless Kato makes their own motors. Then probably not so easy to get them. Brian pretty sure Kato makes their own motors, so as you say they would be hard to get. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2019 7:36:46 GMT -8
Kato motors. Good high torque low current draw and reliable. Source those motors. Oh, and quiet too. Why try and reinvent everything when there is a proven winner already. Unless Kato makes their own motors. Then probably not so easy to get them. Brian pretty sure Kato makes their own motors, so as you say they would be hard to get. That sucks. Best motors EVER! Brian |
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Post by scl1234 on Oct 31, 2019 7:57:11 GMT -8
Seeing as this has caused a great deal of angst, and the previous thread has apparently vanished into thin air... Fixed. :/ |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2019 15:57:09 GMT -8
Seeing as this has caused a great deal of angst, and the previous thread has apparently vanished into thin air... Fixed. :/
But the original thread still exists, and is still locked - just at this point has been bumped to the second page of topics.
So no vanshing, no censorship.
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