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Post by es80ac on Nov 1, 2019 21:10:31 GMT -8
I am sure this topic probably have been discussed in the past in regards to specific F and E units, but since we now have Rapido making FP7, Intermountain making F units, Broadway limited making E units, like to get some expert opinion on which nose is the most prototypically correct and what are the specific flaws in the others, the line ups are:
1. Athearn Genesis F units
2. Rapido FP units
3. Walthers F units
4. Intermountain F units
5. Broadway Limited E units
6. Previous Lifelike p2k E units
7. Oriental brass F units
8. Any other F or E units I may have omitted...
thanks
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2019 21:55:09 GMT -8
I am sure this topic probably have been discussed in the past in regards to specific F and E units, but since we now have Rapido making FP7, Intermountain making F units, Broadway limited making E units, like to get some expert opinion on which nose is the most prototypically correct and what are the specific flaws in the others, the line ups are: 1. Athearn Genesis F units 2. Rapido FP units 3. Walthers F units 4. Intermountain F units 5. Broadway Limited E units 6. Previous Lifelike p2k E units 7. Oriental brass F units 8. Any other F or E units I may have omitted... thanks To add to the list: BLI F units Bowser F units Overland Models F units |
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Post by lvrr325 on Nov 1, 2019 22:31:38 GMT -8
I thought it was fairly well agreed that the Highliners/Athearn nose was the best?
I presume with the 3D scanning Rapido will be the equal of it.
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Post by cemr5396 on Nov 2, 2019 7:42:34 GMT -8
I thought it was fairly well agreed that the Highliners/Athearn nose was the best? I presume with the 3D scanning Rapido will be the equal of it. Rapido has been using the same (scanned) F-unit nose ever since their first F-units came out with the Canadian. As far as I know they are not re-doing it for the FP7. So the comparison to Highliners is already there to be had. Personally, I think the noses are equal, but overall Rapido's F-unit is nicer than the Genesis, straight out of the box at least. But I also have no doubt that a skilled modeler could built a Genesis/Highliner F that could equal Rapido's overall. They are both EXCELLENT locomotives. |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Nov 2, 2019 9:02:05 GMT -8
The rumor I heard was that Paul Lubliner of Highliner manually measured three different prototype F-unit noses back in the 1980s using a 1" grid. He averaged the dimensions and plotted the curves.
Rapido did a 3D laser scan of a GMDD Canadian F-unit nose that is so fine in detail that it picks up the lettering on the unit (because the lettering is a smidge thicker). The scan creates a "cloud" of data points, which is then traced over on a computer or plotted (depends on who is doing the work).
The point is that the Athearn/Highliner shell is an average of three EMD noses while Rapido's shell is a GMDD nose of one unit. Both are highly accurate.
Other EMD noses to add to the list:
LLP1K F3A
Stewart F-units (now Bowser)
NJ/Custom Brass F-units (I know they did FL9's)
Atlas FP7 (which went to E-R Models)
Bachmann Plus F7A
MRC F7A
Globe/Athearn F7A (Blue Box, now Roundhouse)
Model Power (Metal Train)
PennLine
Cary
Tenshodo
Revell
Fleischmann
Rivarossi
And the list goes on, and on, and on, and on...
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Nov 2, 2019 9:06:13 GMT -8
Märklin
MTH
And if we're talking Bulldog noses, there were prototypes with those in Australia and Europe too. Lots of models of those out there too.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2019 9:24:09 GMT -8
I suspect, as alluded to above, as with pretty much any prototype made 50+ years ago the idea that there is one "correct shape" is a fallacy given the individually hand made nature of not just the actual locos but the jibs and other items that were used. Add in different plants in different countries for the EMD/GMDD and it could be that both Rapido and Athearn could be correct even if slightly different.
Which isn't to say that there aren't any where certain curves are wrong, but rather that there are limitations to just how accurate a modern tooled model can be of a prototype that predates modern computer controlled manufacturing.
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Post by lvrr325 on Nov 2, 2019 21:53:25 GMT -8
It would probably be an extensive project to list off all the HO F-unit models that have been offered at various times, which vary from incredibly crude (Marx, which inexplicably still exists in Lionel's hands) to brass, to the accurate Rapido and Genesis models.
Plus many of them would change hands or change importers two or three times.
Some others not listed yet -
Tyco, who actually wore their initial tool out and created a second one
Cox (F3) (later Model Power, vanished when sold to Walthers)
Marx (F3) (Model Power found these and replaced the Cox with it)
American Flyer (F3) (resembles the Marx)
Varney (F3) both metal and plastic
Kader, (FT) first for AHM and now Bachmann
Mehano, first as a crude FT for AT&T, later recut to F9 details but still has goofy too-short nose
Roco, the mentioned FP7 for Atlas but also E7/E8s for Model Power, then Con-Cor
The Penn Line one would go to Varney, then Life-Like, then Walthers may have continued to make them for low-end sets.
The revived 1980's Mantua offered one as well which is probably the same tool as one of the Tyco offerings, I'd need to look at one again to remember which.
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Post by es80ac on Nov 2, 2019 22:48:52 GMT -8
wow, you guys sure remember your history of the noses, this is quiet a list I omitted.
But my original intent of the thread is just to compare a few of the most accurate ones out there to determine which might be the best. From the sound of it is Athearn Genesis or Rapido. Strangely Athearn Genesis might have a perfect F unit if they lower the cab interior, which for some reason never got fixed.
I know Walthers and Intermountain F units are pretty close too, does anyone see anything particular wrong with those 2?
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Post by onequiknova on Nov 3, 2019 5:31:12 GMT -8
wow, you guys sure remember your history of the noses, this is quiet a list I omitted. But my original intent of the thread is just to compare a few of the most accurate ones out there to determine which might be the best. From the sound of it is Athearn Genesis or Rapido. Strangely Athearn Genesis might have a perfect F unit if they lower the cab interior, which for some reason never got fixed. I know Walthers and Intermountain F units are pretty close too, does anyone see anything particular wrong with those 2? When comparing "state of the art" F units, the biggest difference you'll see is in the shape of the windshields and How well the glass fits. The corners of the Walthers windshields are too sharp. The Intermountain glass doesn't fit right. The Bowser (ex Stewart) F windshields are a little too rounded on the top and bottom. The Highliner/Athearn is spot on in both shape and glass fitment with Rapido a close second. |
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Post by riogrande on Nov 3, 2019 5:36:05 GMT -8
In addition to the windshield glazing not looking right on Intermountain, the middle post between the windshields looked a bit too wide, at least when I was giving their F consideration and passed.
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Post by gevohogger on Nov 3, 2019 6:10:14 GMT -8
I suspect, as alluded to above, as with pretty much any prototype made 50+ years ago the idea that there is one "correct shape" is a fallacy given the individually hand made nature of not just the actual locos but the jibs and other items that were used. Add in different plants in different countries for the EMD/GMDD and it could be that both Rapido and Athearn could be correct even if slightly different.
Surely though we can identify some models which are far and away better than others. Rapido and Athearn/Highliners, for example. No matter what small variations exist among the real locomotives, none of them had the poor fitting windshields of the Intermountain, the rectangular windshields of the old Globe/Athearn, the mold parting lines of the Bowser/Stewart, etc, etc. Who was it that made the E-units with the "surprised" raised eyebrow/windshields? That was a special kind of awful. |
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Post by onequiknova on Nov 3, 2019 6:33:54 GMT -8
I suspect, as alluded to above, as with pretty much any prototype made 50+ years ago the idea that there is one "correct shape" is a fallacy given the individually hand made nature of not just the actual locos but the jibs and other items that were used. Add in different plants in different countries for the EMD/GMDD and it could be that both Rapido and Athearn could be correct even if slightly different. Surely though we can identify some models which are far and away better than others. Rapido and Athearn/Highliners, for example. No matter what small variations exist among the real locomotives, none of them had the poor fitting windshields of the Intermountain, the rectangular windshields of the old Globe/Athearn, the mold parting lines of the Bowser/Stewart, etc, etc. Who was it that made the E-units with the "surprised" raised eyebrow/windshields? That was a special kind of awful. The Proto 2000 E6, and later Broadway E6 both suffer from the same "surprised" look. Broadway copied Proto's mistake to a T. |
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Post by markfj on Nov 3, 2019 7:05:33 GMT -8
Somewhere out on the web is a photo that shows “bulldog” noses in various stages of assembly (maybe on the Trains magazine site?). I can’t recall what they were for (“E” or “F” units), but the photo clearly showed the inner support structure for the nose. The photos reminded me of how wooden ships are built with planks bent over frames. That said I’m sure no two noses were exactly the same. I’m kickin myself for not bookmarking the page I saw that photo or downloading a copy, it was very interesting!
Ha ha, found them!  From Classic Trains Spring 2015 issue:   Thanks, Mark J. Reading, PA |
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Post by TBird1958 on Nov 3, 2019 14:53:42 GMT -8
wow, you guys sure remember your history of the noses, this is quiet a list I omitted. But my original intent of the thread is just to compare a few of the most accurate ones out there to determine which might be the best. From the sound of it is Athearn Genesis or Rapido. Strangely Athearn Genesis might have a perfect F unit if they lower the cab interior, which for some reason never got fixed. I know Walthers and Intermountain F units are pretty close too, does anyone see anything particular wrong with those 2?
Since I have Genesis/Highliners I haven't much looked at Fs in recent years with the exception of Intermountain's ofeering, I didn't note anything looking bad as I recall, but they rode rather high off of their trucks. Not a problem with Genesis units.
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Post by rockfan on Nov 4, 2019 7:09:48 GMT -8
Speaking of E/F units, is Bowser rereleasing the Stewart F or is it a completely new design?
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Post by riogrande on Nov 4, 2019 7:52:20 GMT -8
Speaking of E/F units, is Bowser rereleasing the Stewart F or is it a completely new design? Has Bowser announced an E unit? I checked the website and didn't see anything. AFAIK, Bowser continues to use the Stewart F unit shells made from the tooling they bought from Steve Stewart. I have not heard of them retooling the F shell. |
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Post by rockfan on Nov 4, 2019 8:14:21 GMT -8
Yeah they have a new run of F units coming out, I can't remember if it's supposed to be a new design or the old Stewart F.
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Post by jonklein611 on Nov 4, 2019 9:05:20 GMT -8
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Post by thunderhawk on Nov 4, 2019 9:14:41 GMT -8
Somewhere out on the web is a photo that shows “bulldog” noses in various stages of assembly (maybe on the Trains magazine site?). I can’t recall what they were for (“E” or “F” units), but the photo clearly showed the inner support structure for the nose. The photos reminded me of how wooden ships are built with planks bent over frames. That said I’m sure no two noses were exactly the same. I’m kickin myself for not bookmarking the page I saw that photo or downloading a copy, it was very interesting!
Ha ha, found them! From Classic Trains Spring 2015 issue: Thanks, Mark J. Reading, PA I recall also seeing photos of a large air powered tool they used to essentially beat the nose sheets into shape/final fitment. Looked like it had a large wad of cotton waste on the head to avoid tool marks. Having done some bodywork on an E9, they had a large amount of lead work at the seams as well. Bondo wasn't invented at the time apparently. Fitment of the panels was not as tight as on the typical car to say the least. |
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Post by rockfan on Nov 4, 2019 9:20:47 GMT -8
I think you gave me the answer with the Bowser ad, "new for this run" doesn't say anything about a new F unit.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 9:37:26 GMT -8
Didn't that article also state that the final noses were smoothed with bondo? I remember reading that or a similar article that clearly stated no two bulldog noses were alike--that bondo was definitely used to smooth the final contours.
This is why the Alco PA and FA nose has the contours that it has. Alco specifically designed their noses to be easier on the sheetmetal fabrication, as the sheet just had to be curved around the front of the nose, but was otherwise vertical, so it was both easier and faster to construct than the "Bulldog" nose. This is discussed in the book "PA Alco's Glamor Girl".
Jack
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Post by lvrr325 on Nov 5, 2019 3:16:26 GMT -8
In the era these were made, lead body filler would have been used.
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Post by wmcbride on Nov 5, 2019 18:58:08 GMT -8
The Genesis F units are really sharp. The only problem is internal and that is the cab dashboard is back several scale feet from where is should be. It looks like there are storage bins behind the windshield.
Robert Smaus, the SP modeler, published an article in Model Railroader on how to fix it around 2003 or so.
When the Genesis F units first came out, I asked Athearn if they had any plans to fix the cab interior. Their answer was, as I expected, negative. I think over the last two decades, the wrong Genesis cab interior has become a "norm" for most modelers.
Bill McBride
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Post by steveincleve on Nov 6, 2019 11:00:57 GMT -8
It seems to me that Rapido mentioned in one of their newsletters that, when they scanned the prototype unit, they discovered that the divider between the two windshields was slightly wider at the top than at the bottom. Most photos don't show this but occasionally you will see that it appears to be true. My BLI E9A does not have this--I think only Rapido does, although I have never actually seen a Rapido unit up close.
Steve Kay
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Post by edwardsutorik on Nov 6, 2019 11:13:18 GMT -8
Well, most photos won't show that because they're 3/4 front.
But I just spent some time (valuable time, I might add--just ask me) looking at E's. And that "divider" always looked even to me. So I thought I'd stop and ask what photos do you have that "you will see that it appears to be true."?
Ed
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Post by onequiknova on Nov 6, 2019 13:56:43 GMT -8
Well, most photos won't show that because they're 3/4 front. But I just spent some time (valuable time, I might add--just ask me) looking at E's. And that "divider" always looked even to me. So I thought I'd stop and ask what photos do you have that "you will see that it appears to be true."? Ed It does appear to be a bit wider at the top.... Maybe. www.flickr.com/photos/bobswanson/9593914376 |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Nov 6, 2019 14:03:14 GMT -8
It's more likely lens distortion, I think. I want to see something with a longer lens. Or two tape measures. Ed |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Nov 6, 2019 14:18:15 GMT -8
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Post by onequiknova on Nov 6, 2019 15:20:55 GMT -8
For what it's worth, I took some calipers to an undecorated Highliner shell, and there is a few thousands of taper on the center post.
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