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Post by ambluco on Oct 2, 2022 15:01:09 GMT -8
I’ve been thinking about Rapido’s mishaps of late.
When I recall previous videos, social media posts, newsletters, and forum postings (when they used to post more frequently) from NON-RAPIDO manufacturers, it seems it was mostly talk from the perspective of the manufacturer and the model being talked about it. There were some manufacturers that showed video of themselves over in China with some workers doing some assembly or pad printing. I think people feel that the manufacturer is the boss and the Chinese company doing the work is the worker. The boss says what to do, what to make, what dimensions, what colors, etc. The Chinese company makes the product.
Are there mistakes? Yes. Athearn EL gray or LV red come to mind. Very rarely do you hear WHY the mistake was made. Why was the wrong paint used? Why are the window curves wrong? Why was the winterization hatch left off?
With Rapido, there has been talk in videos, et al, where the Chinese workers push back against various issues. Can’t make that change; too late for a change, etc.
This is going back several years.
It made me wonder how much pushback the manufacturers get from the Chinese companies. I was surprised at the pushback as Rapido “owns” their manufacturing firm in China.
Sorry I can’t recall specific models that Rapido was videoing about. It’s been several years though.
Thoughts?
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 2, 2022 16:17:48 GMT -8
I suspect, but don't know, that Rapido only owns the painting and assembly operation. And that they don't own the injection machinery and the appropriate engineering abilities. They are owners of the former, customers of the latter. This all based on the various Rapido videos I've seen.
Other companies appear to be customers, not owners, of both operations. They don't own the factory. They don't employee anyone.
Thus Rapido can control the painting and assembly scheduling. If they wish, they can leave a bunch of incoming in the delivery boxes for months, while they produce what they wish. This would not be an option for other US train people. There, the contractor they're working with wants to have a smooth and continuous flow through HIS shop, and works to that end. They also, of course, want to have happy customers who will keep returning.
Whether the Chinese folks are employees or contractors, they still have to be paid for their work.
Ed
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Post by canrailfan on Oct 2, 2022 17:08:16 GMT -8
I think most North American model manufacturers used to have a much greater presence in China and were able to keep a close eye on design and assembly issues. Over the last three or four years the manufacturers have stopped going to see things first hand, mainly because of COVID and now the increased political tensions between China and Canada/US governments. This has given the factories in China the upper hand in determining how the models are designed and built.
This is where manufacturers like Bowser, who do most of their tooling and injection moulding here, have an advantage. Maybe other manufacturers should at least repatriate these parts of the process to Canada and the US.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 3, 2022 6:40:19 GMT -8
"push back"? "upper hand"?
I think you're ascribing much too much willfulness to the Chinese in this case. They have customers. They want to keep them happy. They also want to make a profit. This might mean telling a customer that, although they'd LOVE to re-do something, it's gonna cost more money. Because it's additional work.
Of course, it likely depends enormously on who made the "mistake".
Consider the famous fat waffles on the Rapido boxcar. At least two distinct mistakes. And it still came out wrong. Who specified what? Who agreed to fix what? Who paid for what fix? Who refused to fix something for "free"?
We're never going to know. We can just guess.
In the case of the Rapido SP&S/BN FA-2, it appears that was all on Rapido. I believe the 11 detail failures were not created by the Chinese guys, they were specified by Rapido. Do this. Put that there. Etc. And since Rapido did the painting, it was Rapido who made the color mistakes that did not get corrected.
Ed
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Post by schroed2 on Oct 14, 2022 3:11:44 GMT -8
I can add another aspect from my professional experience:
many chinese (maunufacturers/factories/...) focus on "function" und NOT on "conformity to specifications". They might feel free to "improve" the product on their own terms.
This IS not limited to model railroading.
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Post by canrailfan on Oct 16, 2022 19:04:25 GMT -8
"push back"? "upper hand"? I think you're ascribing much too much willfulness to the Chinese in this case. They have customers. They want to keep them happy. They also want to make a profit. This might mean telling a customer that, although they'd LOVE to re-do something, it's gonna cost more money. Because it's additional work. Of course, it likely depends enormously on who made the "mistake". ... Ed Perhaps "the upper hand" wasn't the best phrase, it's more like the factories can more easily decide how they want to design, build and decorate the models without anyone looking over their shoulder. The re-dos can be caused by the factory not getting something correct the first time but they still expect more money to fix it. If the manufacturer doesn't want to pay, the project sits on the shelf. I can remember Jason Shron's early videos from the factory where he was sitting with the CAD person pointing out things that needed to be changed. The same with assembly and painting. Being there is much more effective than sending files and samples back and forth. I think there'd be a lot fewer mistakes if most manufacturers could get to their factories more often. Bringing the tooling and moulding work back to Canada or the U.S. would improve the situation.
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Oct 16, 2022 23:38:47 GMT -8
... factories can more easily decide how they want to design, build and decorate the models without anyone looking over their shoulder. The re-dos can be caused by the factory not getting something correct the first time but they still expect more money to fix it. If the manufacturer doesn't want to pay, the project sits on the shelf. I can remember Jason Shron's early videos from the factory where he was sitting with the CAD person pointing out things that needed to be changed. The same with assembly and painting. Being there is much more effective than sending files and samples back and forth. I think there'd be a lot fewer mistakes if most manufacturers could get to their factories more often. Bringing the tooling and moulding work back to Canada or the U.S. would improve the situation. Yes of course it's more efficient to work in close geographical proximity to each other. Yet this situation has been like this for many decades already, and there are many model railroad companies that manage to work effectively with this arrangement. Moloco, Bowser, ExactRail, Tangent, Atlas, Athearn are able to produce stellar to decent models. Rapido's problems are that a) they try to cut corners (witness the cheap motors that burned out, the cheap iPhone speakers, the fat plastic grabs), and b) the factory doesn't produce decorated samples -- again, a cost-cutting measure that bites them in the end. Other engineering professions learned this a century ago; you can't get everything right the first time, so you have to iterate. |
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Post by atsf_4 on Oct 17, 2022 5:27:11 GMT -8
Lee English has spoken privately that if manufacturing of the finished models were to be moved back to the US, the MSRP would as a minimum triple, so that horse has been flogged dead. It is not going to happen. People are once again, or perhaps always, complaining about the price of model trains now over on other topics, and unless the average person wants to literally see a $1000 MSRP on an HO plastic diesel locomotive, there is absolutely no way that manufacturing is coming back to the US, and on freight cars with very limited runs of yesterday's paid for tooling, Kadee is a shining exception that others will not be able to duplicate.
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Post by riogrande on Oct 17, 2022 6:01:59 GMT -8
Lee English has spoken privately that if manufacturing of the finished models were to be moved back to the US, the MSRP would as a minimum triple, so that horse has been flogged dead. It is not going to happen. People are once again, or perhaps always, complaining about the price of model trains now over on other topics, and unless the average person wants to literally see a $1000 MSRP on an HO plastic diesel locomotive, there is absolutely no way that manufacturing is coming back to the US, and on freight cars with very limited runs of yesterday's paid for tooling, Kadee is a shining exception that others will not be able to duplicate. This has been addressed repeatedly ad nauseum but don't expect anything to change. At least over the past 20 years it hasn't. |
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Oct 17, 2022 7:18:14 GMT -8
Lee English has spoken privately that if manufacturing of the finished models were to be moved back to the US, the MSRP would as a minimum triple, so that horse has been flogged dead. It is not going to happen. People are once again, or perhaps always, complaining about the price of model trains now over on other topics, and unless the average person wants to literally see a $1000 MSRP on an HO plastic diesel locomotive, there is absolutely no way that manufacturing is coming back to the US, and on freight cars with very limited runs of yesterday's paid for tooling, Kadee is a shining exception that others will not be able to duplicate. Yet tooling and moulding is not assembly, and is something that could be done in the US. |
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Post by atsf_4 on Oct 17, 2022 11:59:42 GMT -8
Hi Colin--
As noted above by others, Bowser is one manufacturer that designs their tooling and molds the plastic here in the US already (at least for most of their projects). That is also only a couple of full-time jobs, if even that much, because the one guy in charge of the plastic molding also is involved in research and development and also waits on customers in the retail store some of the time, so he wears several hats. Yes, they do still have full-time employees in the US, but it's just not that many people or perhaps not as many as one might think.
The time is in the assembly, painting, packaging, etc., and that is what our friends, perhaps using that term a bit loosely, half the world away do.
As stated by others on multiple occasions, today's diesels can easily exceed 500 parts that take time to put together well even if working assembly line style.
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Post by lvrr325 on Oct 20, 2022 23:00:12 GMT -8
The LV red issue was caused by relying on the historical society providing a paint chip from a hidden location on a locomotive that the outside of looked different perhaps as soon as days after the paint was applied. It also appears to have been applied over a light primer. No one involved compared to photos or other existing models to ensure they wouldn't be out of place.
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Post by severn on Nov 15, 2022 19:07:35 GMT -8
I was watching one of those model train vids and he pointed out the product was made in Vietnam. So perhaps there are other options. I've always thought latin America could really do itself a favor by getting into more legit biz ventures. And you ship by.. train!
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Post by ambluco on Jun 20, 2023 14:44:13 GMT -8
So John from Rapido just posted this in the HO forum.
"We won't even discuss how sometimes the Engineers in China change things after-the-fact & not inform you until you open the box & review the contents."
Exactly what I said in the OP. I was speculating then but it does seem to be true. There is not 100% control. Now, I don't know if someone like Athearn or Atlas has the same issues. But I have not heard about them.
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Post by Baikal on Jun 20, 2023 15:08:31 GMT -8
So John from Rapido just posted this in the HO forum. "We won't even discuss how sometimes the Engineers in China change things after-the-fact & not inform you until you open the box & review the contents." Exactly what I said in the OP. I was speculating then but it does seem to be true. There is not 100% control. Now, I don't know if someone like Athearn or Atlas has the same issues. But I have not heard about them.
Again with the rogue Chinese guy. China! A safe target, for now.
Dog ate my homework, Chinese guy wreked my model, same old.
Somehow it affects Rapido more than everyone else. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2023 9:12:05 GMT -8
The LV red issue was caused by relying on the historical society providing a paint chip from a hidden location on a locomotive that the outside of looked different perhaps as soon as days after the paint was applied. It also appears to have been applied over a light primer. No one involved compared to photos or other existing models to ensure they wouldn't be out of place. Thinking about this a little bit more: ScaleTrains' model boxes say that they use TruColor Paint which is very helpful for anyone who might need to touch up something. IF a manufacturer didn't already know a correct paint color, they could even begin by looking at available model railroad paints and just by looking at photos. "No one involved compared..." That is just sad. Trust but verify. Hysterical societies don't always know as much as they think they know. "Engineers in China..." Sorry, total bs. This is exactly why other companies factually pay expensive expedited freight costs to have painted, finished body samples rushed over here to America--to avoid those kinds of total bs changes. At least one other company has said to me that they can't afford NOT to get the sample models. Imagine all the crap that could have been prevented had Rapido removed their heads from their posteriors long enough to get good sample models? Imagine all the wasted words or internet text that could have been prevented? And how about the lost sales that could have been prevented? (of course, they'll argue lost sales is just peeing in the wind). John |
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Post by fr8kar on Jun 28, 2023 9:34:17 GMT -8
Why on earth they found it necessary to even deal with a hysterical society? Simple. These groups are often the best source of information. Many times the group or its members will have in their collection paint samples, drift cards or documents specifying the paint used. That's not always the case, and some information is unreliable, but odds are you'll get more good than bad from a historical society. If it's the best source of information on the subject, that's what you go with until a better source comes around. The fact that a lot of these projects have to be done in secret because of the substantial investment and long lead times requires potential or developing projects be shared with only a trustworthy group of insiders who are willing to agree to not disclosing sensitive information about the project. So if the model manufacturer didn't know that Joe Expert is the singular keeper of all true and correct information about a particular subject but Joe doesn't publish his work, doesn't belong to the historical society or otherwise make himself known to the world, it's hard to fault the manufacturer for not knowing Joe and his information exists. On the flip side of that coin, it's ridiculous to expect Joe to get in touch with the manufacturer and share information about the prototype if Joe has no idea the project is being developed. If Joe wants to spearhead the effort to make the model that opportunity exists with some manufacturers. Rapido has released a few projects like this that were imagined and developed outside the company. |
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Post by cera2254 on Jun 28, 2023 13:39:07 GMT -8
Even if you didn’t do a full decorated sample. At least painting similar plastic with similar primer would give you an idea if the color really will look right, regardless of whether it matches the chip or not.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2023 14:05:54 GMT -8
fr8kar--
My point was only that some historical societies think they know much more than they do. (Oh, yeah, that's how some folks in Altoona didn't add value to their restoration of a certain K-4, that now needs a whole new boiler as a result of poorly done previous repairs).
This is also why one manufacturer refers to them, completely off the record, as hysterical societies.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2023 5:47:05 GMT -8
Also, regarding "Average Joe's" publishing his expert-level subject matter about a particular project (so that manufacturer A can learn about it and be inspired to make a model of it), I was very very put off by at least one major historical society specifically because they want all submissions to be free of charge and you the author lose your rights to your submission.
Why on God's green earth would a subject matter expert give the product of their time and research (having contacted people across the US to gain information) away to a hysterical society for free when they could submit the exact same article to Diesel Era, and end up with a much nicer finished product (they have the photos and slides to profusely illustrate one's text) while getting paid a nominal amount (enough to buy a nice Genesis loco) for all their work?
If I'm going to put 50 or 60 hours, or even more into a project, I would want just a small return out of it to help make it worth my while if/when I could get it.
John
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Post by Baikal on Jun 29, 2023 9:39:57 GMT -8
Also, regarding "Average Joe's" publishing his expert-level subject matter about a particular project (so that manufacturer A can learn about it and be inspired to make a model of it), I was very very put off by at least one major historical society specifically because they want all submissions to be free of charge and you the author lose your rights to your submission. Why on God's green earth would a subject matter expert give the product of their time and research (having contacted people across the US to gain information) away to a hysterical society for free when they could submit the exact same article to Diesel Era, and end up with a much nicer finished product (they have the photos and slides to profusely illustrate one's text) while getting paid a nominal amount (enough to buy a nice Genesis loco) for all their work? If I'm going to put 50 or 60 hours, or even more into a project, I would want just a small return out of it to help make it worth my while if/when I could get it. John
Someone's been rejected. What were you trying to submit? Just the title / subject.
If everyone had your attitude there wouldn't be any historical societies. They don't have money to spare and instead rely on members and other people to contribute. Volunteers with common interests. That's the way it works, it's called sharing. The "return" contributors get is the feeling of satisfaction of helping other people. Is that alien to you?
Have you ever done anything for charity? Or does everything in your life reducible to a monatary value?
Yet you come here asking for "free" advice from people, some of who are indeed experts.
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Post by fr8kar on Jun 29, 2023 10:01:06 GMT -8
Why on God's green earth would a subject matter expert give the product of their time and research (having contacted people across the US to gain information) away to a hysterical society for free when they could submit the exact same article to Diesel Era, and end up with a much nicer finished product (they have the photos and slides to profusely illustrate one's text) while getting paid a nominal amount (enough to buy a nice Genesis loco) for all their work? If I'm going to put 50 or 60 hours, or even more into a project, I would want just a small return out of it to help make it worth my while if/when I could get it. John I can think of a lot of reasons, but the first that comes to mind is charity. Most historical societies are organized under 501(c)(3) which gives donors the opportunity to deduct the value of a donation from their taxable income. Then there's more the spirit of charity, such as when one has more than they can use and enjoys the idea of giving some of their resources, wealth, access, etc. away to others. Sometimes people feel strongly in their need to give. Somewhere in most historical societies' statement of purpose is a mandate to accumulate and disseminate information about the subject matter so that knowledge can be spread and more people can easily access and enjoy the information. Most of these organizations accomplish this with dedicated members who volunteer their time, i.e. they don't get paid. I think publishing articles is a great way to get information out to the public, especially to those outside of historical societies. Perhaps someone reads the article, gets interested in the subject and joins the historical society in order to seek out additional information. Historical societies, like any other volunteer organization, are only as good as those who make up the society. Sometimes you get members or even leaders who are motivated by their own sense of self-importance. Sometimes you get leaders who elevate the organization through their tireless effort. If any organization is to last for very long there can and will be changes in the leadership and membership. But change seldom comes from the outside. It's the members who can make the organization better and who can fulfill the mandate of sharing information. |
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Post by 12bridge on Jun 29, 2023 13:19:20 GMT -8
Ryan - You raise many good points, but one specifically...
" It's the members who can make the organization better and who can fulfill the mandate of sharing information."
While this is very true, it does have repercussions.
I have dealt with more society's and organizations in the last 5 years then I can remember working on both book and modeling projects with vendors. And there are two very distinct kinds.
1 - Ones that are more then happy to share information and help with your project.
2 - Ones that will not give you the time of day. More so if they find out you are working on XX project, or if XX person is involved, etc.
Some groups are really great to work with, and others are an absolute waste of time, and you can usually tell how they are pretty quickly. When your under project deadlines, sometimes you can not wait for George to go spend 6 months rummaging through the back room to find some document or whatever that may or may not have been stolen a decade ago by some pissed off volunteer.
Another thing, Just because a group has something, does not mean they are going to let you see it, use it, copy it, scan it, etc. (See point #2).
It can be very, very frustrating.
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Post by hudsonyard on Jun 29, 2023 14:33:20 GMT -8
Ones that will not give you the time of day. More so if they find out you are working on XX project, or if XX person is involved, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2023 17:57:50 GMT -8
Also, regarding "Average Joe's" publishing his expert-level subject matter about a particular project (so that manufacturer A can learn about it and be inspired to make a model of it), I was very very put off by at least one major historical society specifically because they want all submissions to be free of charge and you the author lose your rights to your submission. Why on God's green earth would a subject matter expert give the product of their time and research (having contacted people across the US to gain information) away to a hysterical society for free when they could submit the exact same article to Diesel Era, and end up with a much nicer finished product (they have the photos and slides to profusely illustrate one's text) while getting paid a nominal amount (enough to buy a nice Genesis loco) for all their work? If I'm going to put 50 or 60 hours, or even more into a project, I would want just a small return out of it to help make it worth my while if/when I could get it. John
Someone's been rejected. What were you trying to submit? Just the title / subject.
If everyone had your attitude there wouldn't be any historical societies. They don't have money to spare and instead rely on members and other people to contribute. Volunteers with common interests. That's the way it works, it's called sharing. The "return" contributors get is the feeling of satisfaction of helping other people. Is that alien to you?
Have you ever done anything for charity? Or does everything in your life reducible to a monatary value?
Yet you come here asking for "free" advice from people, some of who are indeed experts.
You clearly do not get it. I am one of the most literal writers. I say exactly what I mean, and yet you continually read stuff into my posts that I never said and as a result you get COMPLETELY the wrong meaning EVERY SINGLE TIME, and I'm quite sick and tired of it. It's also not a sin to want to get a couple dollars an hour (literally) back for all the effort one puts in. People sacrifice family time, etc. and time does have a value. Maybe your time has no value to you but mine does. And NO nobody ever rejected anything that I wrote, but maybe I want firsthand operational experience running said locomotive, which is sometimes difficult to track down the people who were there. So I did one and only one article and it was published. Have you ever met and talked to anybody in person who actually gets articles published? Or whole books? One lives near me who has personally authored more than 30 railroad books for Morning Sun Books. Do you think he works for free? Heck no. They pay him, and pretty well enough, to write books. I've been to his house; he has an amazing collection of trains all paid for by his books. That's his hobby money and then some. One of the nicest folks I ever met. Traveled all over North America photographing the trains and railfanning. Wife must be a saint. Do people develop model train build projects for free? Heck NO they get paid! In brass, they typically get a brass model or two free for the time they put in. |
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Jun 29, 2023 18:29:29 GMT -8
Gee, boo hoo. This is all stuff that happens nearly every day in nearly any enterprise from toy trains to international relations. Anytime anything happens that involves human beings and all their complexities….it’s life.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2023 18:35:38 GMT -8
Why would you want to deal with people at a hysterical society who couldn't at least be nice to you when you were trying to contribute? As a post 1970, or "modern", diesel fan, I don't like dealing with the steam mafia that until the last couple years dominated one hysterical society. Just straight up I do not need the hassle. It was too easy to decide I wasn't going to do any articles for them after an initial inquiry was made.
IF I'm a bit jaded it is because it is well known that the museum in my home town was run by people who personally stole donated material for themselves and were even selling it on the side. If I was one of the donors I think I'd have a right to be ticked off.
Also, professionally I work on construction projects that occasionally involve sensitive resources, historical or otherwise. There's a huge amount of artifacts uncovered and paid for with taxpayer money that never see the light of day. The state museum and historical commission has 10 times the amount they can ever possibly display. It's just kinda sad and seems like an utter waste of taxpayer funds. They do try to rotate displays, so I'm told. I do not get to the state museum in the capitol very much, but have for my work; saw the drawers upon drawers of materials just locked away.
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Post by Baikal on Jun 29, 2023 19:41:42 GMT -8
Someone's been rejected. What were you trying to submit? Just the title / subject.
If everyone had your attitude there wouldn't be any historical societies. They don't have money to spare and instead rely on members and other people to contribute. Volunteers with common interests. That's the way it works, it's called sharing. The "return" contributors get is the feeling of satisfaction of helping other people. Is that alien to you?
Have you ever done anything for charity? Or does everything in your life reducible to a monatary value?
Yet you come here asking for "free" advice from people, some of who are indeed experts.
You clearly do not get it. I am one of the most literal writers. I say exactly what I mean, and yet you continually read stuff into my posts that I never said and as a result you get COMPLETELY the wrong meaning EVERY SINGLE TIME, and I'm quite sick and tired of it. It's also not a sin to want to get a couple dollars an hour (literally) back for all the effort one puts in. People sacrifice family time, etc. and time does have a value. Maybe your time has no value to you but mine does. And NO nobody ever rejected anything that I wrote, but maybe I want firsthand operational experience running said locomotive, which is sometimes difficult to track down the people who were there. So I did one and only one article and it was published. Have you ever met and talked to anybody in person who actually gets articles published? Or whole books? One lives near me who has personally authored more than 30 railroad books for Morning Sun Books. Do you think he works for free? Heck no. They pay him, and pretty well enough, to write books. I've been to his house; he has an amazing collection of trains all paid for by his books. That's his hobby money and then some. One of the nicest folks I ever met. Traveled all over North America photographing the trains and railfanning. Wife must be a saint. Do people develop model train build projects for free? Heck NO they get paid! In brass, they typically get a brass model or two free for the time they put in.
You're one of the most literal writers you say? Awesome, way better than the other kind.
The historical society didn't publish your work because they didn't agree with your valuation of your work. Aka no deal. We won't call it a rejection. But it's important to remember that the value of a thing is set by the buyer. If no one will buy X at any price it literally has no value.
Yes, people do indeed develop model train projects for free. Most people getting into any type of model RR manufacturing break even or lose money. They do it anyway.
So..... What was the title or subject of your unsold work that kicked this off? I'm curious as to what you put together, as are many of our readers.
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Jun 30, 2023 5:45:53 GMT -8
Hmmmm….take your jacks and go….another hissy fit due to rejection, or ego deflation?  |
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Post by cemr5396 on Jun 30, 2023 7:02:45 GMT -8
a historical society is only as good as the people in it.
Years ago when True Line Trains were making CN wooden cabooses, they consulted with railway experts all over the country to make sure they were doing it right. They ended up doing several different versions of the cabooses, one of which was basically unique to Western Canada.
When the Eastern-based 'experts' saw it, they all started losing their crap and yelling about how it 'didn't exist' and 'how could they possibly mess that up' and all that. Regardless of the fact that they had been very well documented in photos when they were in service, and the fact that TLT had literally measured one of the prototype cabooses, which are preserved all over the West.
The same thing happened when TLT was making some 40' express reefers a couple years later. In addition to the requisite CN ones, they also did a batch of cars that CP had, which were painted silver with a Maroon stripe for use on CP's flagship trains #1 and #2, The Canadian. They would put them in right behind the head end power, ahead of the Budd passenger cars. Sometimes, at a night, they would also add express cars behind the dome-obs car, as long as they were going to a destination that would be reached before morning. Again, mostly a Western thing, although they did run into Toronto and to a few other places in the East. But once again, those same Eastern-based 'experts', started crowing about whether or not the cars actually existed, even when presented with concrete proof that they did, in fact, exist.
In both situations, the so-called 'experts' from the East could not see past the their own nose and what they were most familiar with to actually pay attention to what has happening everywhere else. Because if it wasn't in their local area of interest, it wasn't worth knowing. So when presented with something that they had somehow managed to remain oblivious to, their immediate reaction was to go "they didn't exist", "that's bullcrap", etc because they couldn't possibly admit that there were other people out there who knew something they didn't.
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