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Post by carrman on Feb 28, 2013 13:18:39 GMT -8
Then state what you mean, and not fire off a generic statement like that.
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Post by nw611 on Feb 28, 2013 15:55:51 GMT -8
Middlevision wrote: "I'm not a fan of operating couplers". I think that "premium operating knuckle couplers" means Kadees. Am I wrong? Ciao. Raffaele
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Post by atsfan on Feb 28, 2013 18:22:20 GMT -8
Then state what you mean, and not fire off a generic statement like that. Oh please. As if HO train manufacturing is all the rage in 2013 in the USA. You named two niche players. Athearn, Atlas, Walthers, Kato, MTH, Broadway, Exactrail, Tangent, Bowser, et al are all made overseas. 95% of the USA HO market is not made in the USA by "manufacturers" but simply outsourced to Asia and imported. Name one HO engine (the topic here!) made in the USA.........
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Post by carrman on Feb 28, 2013 18:27:52 GMT -8
I never said it was all the rage Frank. You said no one made stuff here. I contradicted your staement, and you had a hissy fit. The topic here was the U25C, not HO engines in general.
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Post by roadkill on Feb 28, 2013 18:40:20 GMT -8
Please make it Genesis quality and I'll be good for a PRR unit and a couple PC units. If it's more along the lines of the BLI SD40-2, well, then fuggedaboudit... I'll rebuild some Rivi's.
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Post by buffalobill on Feb 28, 2013 20:02:44 GMT -8
I agree, if it looks good, I am in for a couple of BN's. My 40 plus year old reworked AHM-Riv's with hit the sale tables. Hopefully they do a credible job with this one. Bill
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Post by middledivision on Mar 1, 2013 10:08:29 GMT -8
Middlevision wrote: "I'm not a fan of operating couplers". I think that "premium operating knuckle couplers" means Kadees. Am I wrong? Ciao. Raffaele I hope you are right. However, you would think they would mention Kadee couplers by name.
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Post by atsfan on Mar 1, 2013 15:44:27 GMT -8
I never said it was all the rage Frank. You said no one made stuff here. I contradicted your staement, and you had a hissy fit. The topic here was the U25C, not HO engines in general. First off I am not Frank Second, what in the heck are you even talking about. If the topic is the U25C, nobody makes it in the USA. If the topic is HO engines, nobody makes those in the USA. Hissy fit? Huh? You are the one having the issues not me. I can't even follow what you are complaining about any more so will probably stop attempting to do so. Have a nice weekend.
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Post by carrman on Mar 1, 2013 16:05:52 GMT -8
Hardly Frank.
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Post by theengineshed on Mar 1, 2013 16:16:01 GMT -8
Middlevision wrote: "I'm not a fan of operating couplers". I think that "premium operating knuckle couplers" means Kadees. Am I wrong? Ciao. Raffaele I hope you are right. However, you would think they would mention Kadee couplers by name. Maybe the lawyers had not had time to review Scott's official ARF posting... I bet they get that squared away by the time they do the box art.
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Post by el3637 on Mar 1, 2013 18:01:21 GMT -8
Middlevision wrote: "I'm not a fan of operating couplers". I think that "premium operating knuckle couplers" means Kadees. Am I wrong? Ciao. Raffaele Maybe it means TBD. BLI's stuff recently has come with real Kadees, but that may be a deal with BLI and not KB. I'm really more interested in the quality of the tooling. KB should have the ability to put out a model as fine as recent Athearn Genesis. Heck, Bachmann has the resources to do it. They just never have. I do not have an overwhelming need for U25Cs, but if they are acceptable I would go for a couple in Penn Central and a couple in L&N. In the case of PC, I might want one to represent an early U28C - but I am not very knowledgable as to what the differences may be. Andy
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Post by edwardsutorik on Mar 1, 2013 18:42:29 GMT -8
...I might want one to represent an early U28C - but I am not very knowledgable as to what the differences may be. Here's a description of the phases for the U28C's: www.trainweb.org/jaydeet/u28c.htmI mentioned the url for the U25C roster (and phases) earlier. I also asked Scott if they were planning on doing the various phases or a generic--no answer yet. So, there might even be some work making accurate U25C's. If they do a generic, the wise move would be a phase IIIb, as pretty much everyone got some. And those folks who have the AHM could flaunt their earlier phased U25C. These appear to be phase II's. If I ever get around to fixing up my AHM NP U25C, it'll look nice with the hopefully well done Korea Brass phase IIIb's. It's kinda neat that the AHM version comes with the NP light package. Well, neat for me, anyway. In looking at photos of the last NP U25C and their first U28C, the only difference I can see is that the handrail supports went from the classic U25C flat pieces to a smaller channel cross-section. I believe that's the only difference, but I'd be looking at photos of my locos of interest to make sure. Ed
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Post by roadkill on Mar 1, 2013 20:01:27 GMT -8
I do not have an overwhelming need for U25Cs, but if they are acceptable I would go for a couple in Penn Central and a couple in L&N. In the case of PC, I might want one to represent an early U28C - but I am not very knowledgable as to what the differences may be. Andy Won't work for a PC U28C. The ancient blue box phase II U28C from Athearn was the crude but correct carbody for the PC (ex PRR) units.
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Post by bnsf971 on Mar 2, 2013 6:51:22 GMT -8
I remember the early U25Cs had trimount trucks, and the later units had the Adirondack/GSC trucks.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Mar 2, 2013 7:43:50 GMT -8
I remember the early U25Cs had trimount trucks, and the later units had the Adirondack/GSC trucks. Huh?? last Burlington U25C, built 10/65: from last order of ACL U25C's, built 11/65: from last order of PRR U25C's, built 12/65: from last order of L&N U25C's, built 7-10/65: Ed
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Post by atsfan on Mar 2, 2013 9:20:49 GMT -8
I really hope they can get the U Boat Chugging sound right. If they do onboard sound may be worth it.
It is not white noise, or a generic diesel.
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Post by bnsf971 on Mar 2, 2013 10:40:56 GMT -8
I remember the early U25Cs had trimount trucks, and the later units had the Adirondack/GSC trucks. Huh?? last Burlington U25C, built 10/65: from last order of ACL U25C's, built 11/65: from last order of PRR U25C's, built 12/65: from last order of L&N U25C's, built 7-10/65: Ed Thanks. I guess I did remember right. So if somebody wants to take a U25C and make it an early 28, they will need to swap trucks.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Mar 2, 2013 11:00:08 GMT -8
Thanks. I guess I did remember right. So if somebody wants to take a U25C and make it an early 28, they will need to swap trucks. Nope, don't think so. Early (ex Q) U28C: Early (ex Q) U28C: Early (ex NP) U28C: All have tri-mount trucks and the typical U25C body. A difference I see is that the first photo shows the flat typical U25C stanchions, while the other show the typical later GE channel style. Ed
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Post by bnsf971 on Mar 3, 2013 6:29:34 GMT -8
There are days I hate my tablet. Brevity is not always good, like in my above posts. On the bright side, I see my efforts have caused a thread about tri-mount trucks to be created. Maybe we can also start a database thread on which C truck U boats and dash 7 models got GSC and which got Adirondack trucks. If nothing else, it would be good for the custom painters and detailers.
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Post by atsfan on Mar 3, 2013 8:02:58 GMT -8
Can people stop responding to the picture filled post thus causing all the pictures to show up again, and again, and.........
Thanks :-)
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Post by theengineshed on Mar 3, 2013 9:07:24 GMT -8
Can people stop responding to the picture filled post thus causing all the pictures to show up again, and again, and......... Not to be too pedantic, but people implies more than one. In this case we just had one person slip up, once. Granted the post had four photos. Tablet impaired, no doubt... Pete Nitpicken, VA
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Post by atsfan on Mar 3, 2013 10:30:29 GMT -8
Can people stop responding to the picture filled post thus causing all the pictures to show up again, and again, and......... Not to be too pedantic, but people implies more than one. In this case we just had one person slip up, once. Granted the post had four photos. Tablet impaired, no doubt... Pete Nitpicken, VA Not a huge deal. But just saying. On a bad wifi connection you want to Cellular with data plan is worse.
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Post by bnsf971 on Mar 3, 2013 15:13:24 GMT -8
I think I already let you know what the problem was. Very large fingers do not fine editing tools make. And I don't believe in editing my posts after the fact, it makes people (plural, as in more than one) wonder what you were hiding by editing.
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Post by Chad on Mar 3, 2013 17:46:41 GMT -8
I'll take a BN version.
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Post by navarch1 on Mar 3, 2013 19:36:38 GMT -8
I think Soundtraxx got the sound of the U-boats down pretty well.....
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Post by wendtsc on Mar 4, 2013 1:16:32 GMT -8
Wow! I can't believe all the interest and questions... First, as a former long-time member (or was I just a guest all those years!) of the Original Atlas Forum, I am sometimes torn and conflicted. The forum part of me wants to call the KBM part of me a weasel for making compromises and really rips into the KBM part when he makes stupid slip ups, but then the KBM side reminds my old Atlas Forum side that without the KBM side, I would probably still be stuck playing with Tyco and GP35s and GP9s (or were they GP7s, Irv?) with hoods that could fit a modern day O scale decoder! Anyway... First, thanks to bnsf971 for PMing me about my slip up on the U25C-U25B thing. With all the meetings last week about designing "future reuse" into our model, and given that I must have spent 60 or 70 hours pouring through pictures of just about every product in GE's catalog last week, I was bound to slip up somewhere. If I had just double checked our drawings. The similarities are with the U25C and the U28C not the U25B, however we have run across conflicting data about length. Foster's North American Field Guide lists virtually all u-boats as having a length of 67'3" while our builder print shows 64' 6" knuckle to knuckle. I lean toward our builders drawing, personally. Anyway, we WILL sort it out. This is the kind of thing that goes on at every manufacturer from Atlas to Zimo, its just they usually don't put it out there on a forum until after the dies have been cast. As a modeller first, I will confess that I, too, am not a fan of the BLI SD40-2, mainly because of the bad paint job on the BN models, then again Atlas didn't exactly get their BN U33Cs right the first time around either. We are definitely going to try to set the bar higher (think more along the lines of the award-winning Gauge 1 Hudson we made for USA trains or any of the steam engines we make for Marklin), however with the fact that there is only one existing example of a U25C left (that I know of) sitting up in the U. P. of MI, getting all the details right for every roadname is going to be a huge challenge. Here is where my KBM side steps in. Our goal in picking the roadnumbers we are going to offer for each railroad is to find the specific locomotives on the roster that most accurately fit the "standardized GE model." We will probably have two basic versions from which we will further detail to get as close to the prototype for that particular model as possible without turning it into a "brass priced" model. Its always a balancing act, but as I told Tony Cook at Model Railroad News, our goal is to build a model that takes a "rivet counter" at least 20 minutes (or your average Atlas forum members 15 minutes, but I kid, I kid) before they find a flaw and then it should be something small that isn't obvious from any published photos. We would like to get a pre-production sample of the shell out this summer and have actual production samples ready by Trainfest in November. Of course, if someone (not to mention any names, a-hem, Mike) decides to try and push out a U25C also, we are prepared to move up the schedule. A model manufacturer moving up a release date? Now that would surely get the cover of MR! As far as grills and versions... first, we are probably looking at the Phase 3 version, however as builder drawings are hard to come by we will probably start by doing CADs based from high quality photos of the specific locomotives we are doing for each roadname. Then, for the grills, while see through grills are nice, considering the size and placement, there would be a whole lot of un-prototypical model mechanism and DCC/sound stuff visible, so we will probably do like we have done on the BLI AC6000 radiators. We will have a cast underframing that will be part of the shell, but then we will also have a brass etched grill over the top. The effect will be to have see through grills without actually seeing the inside of the locomotive. (This could change, however, if we can "clean out" the inside of our mechanism the way Kato is doing. Then, we could even look at adding a detailed interior behind those grills!) Now couplers and sound... First, the couplers. We will most likely use Kadees, however on the chance they cannot provide us with enough stock, (it happens a lot more than the folks in Oregon will admit!) I have come to consider the all-metal Walthers Protomax a reasonable substitute. The Kadees and the metal Protomax are the only couplers I would consider reasonable "premium operating knuckle couplers." Before anyone asks, I would consider the Sargents as "ultra-premium" and MTH's remotely operating couplers as "trash." The sound is something I spent most of my weekend mulling over. As we don't have a functioning prototype to record, not that it would sound right for most models after 40 years anyway, we are having to look at what sound files are already out there. The GE FDL 16 prime mover is readily available from several sources. Soundtraxx already has a file they claim is a U25C for their Tsunami decoder line. Personally however, I have owned sound decoders from Soundtraxx, QSI, ESU, and BLI Paragon and I would generally rate them closer to the bottom. Sorry, folks. There sound (to me) seems way to muddy. Its okay for a locomotive sitting someplace enclosed like Union Station, but it is completely incapable of reproducing the open and airy sounds of a locomotive passing through a river valley. While some may question the accuracy of some of their sound files, I think QSI has far and above some of the best sound. I have a pair of Walthers Proto2000 Great Northern Fs that I still consider my best sounding locomotives, far better than the Walthers Tsunami-equipped Santa Fe Warbonnets I got recently. Not only do the warbonnets sound like they are in a fish tank, but Soundtraxx needs to seriously reconsider their decision to use the E stop button for the shutdown sequence. Even MRC did a better job with that one. And they also need to do something about the notching. There is no excuse in this day and age for a sound decoder not have the option for the motor to be delayed until after the prime mover sound has either notched up or down without having to remember whether its F8 or F9 for up or down and then trying to decide how much throttle or brake is realistic before you have to remember again to adjust the manual notching. ESU and even our new Paragon2 decoders do that from the factory the same way a real locomotive loads up. So, to cap, while we would like to have QSI or ESU sound, if we have to we will default to the Tsunami. And finally, to wrap up a few of the stray questions I saw out there, we are still looking at moving forward with a "juice car" in the future just as soon as someone can come up with some accurate drawings and photos that we can work with... We still produce brass models on a regular basis, although not as many as our friends across the river at Ajin. Most of our brass models are now of Japanese and European prototypes and mostly steam. And for that last question about the whole MTH and Lionel debacle, lets just say my boss doesn't like to talk about it much as with all the lowdown and underhanded behavior by Mike and the denials on the part of Lionel, we were the ones who were left without a chair when the music stopped playing. Attachments:
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Post by edwardsutorik on Mar 4, 2013 9:49:40 GMT -8
Scott,
Thanks for responding.
I think the phase 3 version is an excellent choice. And I look forward to keeping my earlier AHM U boats. While buying a number of Korea Brass's new ones, of coarse!
As to lengths, from diagrams in Del Grosso's "Burlington Northern Railroad Locomotives 1970-1996", the face-to-face dimension for a U25C is 64'-6" (same as you noted), while the face-to-face for a U25B is 60'-2".
And, while we're at it:
67'-3": C30-7, U23C, U30C, U33C 60'-2": U28B, U30B 61'-2": B30-7
And the heights do seem to vary, but the C-boats are taller, generally than the B-boats by about 6".
And deck height for U25B's and U28B's is 5'-7 5/8", for U25C's--6'-4 1/4", for U33C's 6'-3". That's a pretty big difference. For those who think deck heights between units should match, beware!
Regarding the see-through screening (from the side): I'm just looking right now at an early P2K U28B. It's got really superb see-through screening. Looking through, I can just barely make out the top of the gearbox. So, at least for this particular drive design, there's no visual obstruction. Next, I'll turn to a fascinating overhead shot of the insides of a U25C found on page 207 of Schrenk and Frey's "Northern Pacific Railway Diesel Era 1945-1970". It shows, behind where the side intake screens would be, an assembly of "stuff" that looks to me to be visually larger than a likely gearbox housing on a model. On the model, I suppose one might place speakers right at this location. Or one could put them facing down in the fuel tank. Or one (as in me) could buy the non-sound version and hack out the speaker area for visual clearance. THAT will work for me. So, if you do a screen overlay with a view block on the inside, please try to make the view block easily removable.
Ed
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Post by edwardsutorik on Mar 4, 2013 13:41:04 GMT -8
And, speaking of screening, see-through, here's a nice roof shot showing the opening for the compressor ventilation and, in the distance, the radiator outlet screening: www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1914602You can see two air tanks through the forward opening. Ed
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Post by cwgreg on Mar 4, 2013 15:14:34 GMT -8
Wow! I can't believe all the interest and questions... The sound is something I spent most of my weekend mulling over. As we don't have a functioning prototype to record, not that it would sound right for most models after 40 years anyway, we are having to look at what sound files are already out there. The GE FDL 16 prime mover is readily available from several sources. Soundtraxx already has a file they claim is a U25C for their Tsunami decoder line. Personally however, I have owned sound decoders from Soundtraxx, QSI, ESU, and BLI Paragon and I would generally rate them closer to the bottom. Sorry, folks. There sound (to me) seems way to muddy. Its okay for a locomotive sitting someplace enclosed like Union Station, but it is completely incapable of reproducing the open and airy sounds of a locomotive passing through a river valley. While some may question the accuracy of some of their sound files, I think QSI has far and above some of the best sound. I have a pair of Walthers Proto2000 Great Northern Fs that I still consider my best sounding locomotives, far better than the Walthers Tsunami-equipped Santa Fe Warbonnets I got recently. Not only do the warbonnets sound like they are in a fish tank, but Soundtraxx needs to seriously reconsider their decision to use the E stop button for the shutdown sequence. Even MRC did a better job with that one. And they also need to do something about the notching. There is no excuse in this day and age for a sound decoder not have the option for the motor to be delayed until after the prime mover sound has either notched up or down without having to remember whether its F8 or F9 for up or down and then trying to decide how much throttle or brake is realistic before you have to remember again to adjust the manual notching. ESU and even our new Paragon2 decoders do that from the factory the same way a real locomotive loads up. So, to cap, while we would like to have QSI or ESU sound, if we have to we will default to the Tsunami. I have done sound decoder installs for a local hobby shop and have had to replace BLI and QSI sound decoders for customers with Tsunamis for a variety of reasons. I do hope that your non-sound U25C's can have sound added as an afterrmarket item. I personally prefer Soundtraxx because of its flexibilty in setup though I know some people have a problem dealing with its manual notching features. I do look forward to this model as I "need" NP and BN units to fill some voids in my rosters. BTW,how does a hobby shop become a KBM dealer? Greg
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Post by wendtsc on Mar 4, 2013 16:35:23 GMT -8
Greg,
Send me an email with your contact information to koreabrassltd@yahoo.com and I will add you to the list of interested dealers. We are still working out the details to our Dealer Program, but as soon as we start finalizing things like dealer and quantity pricing as well as consolidated shipping, we will start sending out the information. We will also send out any updates on production as we get them.
Scott Wendt Korea-Brass Co., Ltd.
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