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Post by oldmuley on Jul 8, 2023 16:49:05 GMT -8
Over the past week, I've been having a bit of a discussion on Reddit (I know, I know) about what is and what is not a model train. Some people, actually a majority, felt that a model train is simply any train that isn't 1:1 scale. For example, one person asked if a ride-on Little Tykes train was a model. Another suggested that trains made out of Lego were model trains. I tried to make the point that the word "model" had specific meaning, suggesting a level of detail and fidelity. In my mind, there are toy trains, Lego trains, wooden trains, Brio trains, and these are all distinct from model trains.
Am I being pedantic, or what?
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johns
New Member
Posts: 33
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Post by johns on Jul 9, 2023 6:18:57 GMT -8
It sounds to me like you are inserting a silent "scale" in front of "model". Which is understandable.
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Post by gevohogger on Jul 10, 2023 5:26:23 GMT -8
They're still all toys.
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Post by Baikal on Jul 10, 2023 6:40:18 GMT -8
Some models are used in work situations.
So not all.
A model can also be a toy and v.v., the terms aren't exclusive.
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Post by Baikal on Jul 10, 2023 7:15:49 GMT -8
Over the past week, I've been having a bit of a discussion on Reddit (I know, I know) about what is and what is not a model train. Some people, actually a majority, felt that a model train is simply any train that isn't 1:1 scale. For example, one person asked if a ride-on Little Tykes train was a model. Another suggested that trains made out of Lego were model trains. I tried to make the point that the word "model" had specific meaning, suggesting a level of detail and fidelity. In my mind, there are toy trains, Lego trains, wooden trains, Brio trains, and these are all distinct from model trains. Am I being pedantic, or what?
All those are models. They aren't "detailerd" or very accurate, but if recognizable as "trains" that makes them models. There is no hard line where model stops and toy begins.
Also, simulators (TrainSim, professional train performance & engineering models) are models even though they aren't physical models.
The CAD drawings of locos & cars are models.
A "prototype" doesn't even have to exist- it can be conceptual and still be modeled.
"Model" and "map" are generally synonymous, with "model" usually meaning 3D, map 2D. But not always. For both, topology must be preserved en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topology You can have distorted models or maps, like those tourist / chamber of commerce maps of downtowns.
I did travel demand modeling, operations modeling, and performance modeling for light rail systems and commuter rail. All were models of trains even though they were mathmatic, electronic. Some, like the travel demand models, had output that was in the form of a 2D map as well. Performance models would print string charts, which are models of operations. Etc.
Some RRs use physical models as instructional aids (switching, safety, etc). Those aren't toys. A CTC board is a model of trains. A dispatcher's train sheet is a model. Numbered blocks on boards used to track locos or trains for ops or maintenance are models.
Physical and electronic models are used to visualize projects from parts to entire systems like yards or industrial areas... Used for sales, engineering, architecture, political, etc.
Model railroad "operations" is modeling in itself.
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Post by riogrande on Jul 10, 2023 7:36:47 GMT -8
The problem here is "what is or isn't a model train" can mean different things to different people and be all over the map. That's as far as I go with this discussion.
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Post by Baikal on Jul 10, 2023 7:48:42 GMT -8
The problem here is "what is or isn't a model train" can mean different things to different people and be all over the map. That's as far as I go with this discussion.
"All over the map" (which is a model), lol. But yes, true that.
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Post by cemr5396 on Jul 10, 2023 10:28:43 GMT -8
It sounds to me like you are inserting a silent "scale" in front of "model". Which is understandable. this is roughly where I stand on that. If it ain't to scale (or at least making an attempt to be) then it isn't a model. One could make a case that Hot Wheels cars are models. They are (nearly) all built to the same 'scale', whatever that happens to be, and are proportioned accordingly. Tonka trucks, on the other hand, aren't. One could also make the same argument about Genesis/Rivet Counter level HO (or N scale) vs. 3-rail Lionel, or LEGO trains, or wooden Thomas trains. I would tend to agree with that person, if they did make that argument. Maybe not eveyone else would. |
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Post by lars on Jul 10, 2023 13:58:21 GMT -8
It sounds to me like you are inserting a silent "scale" in front of "model". Which is understandable. this is roughly where I stand on that. If it ain't to scale (or at least making an attempt to be) then it isn't a model. One could make a case that Hot Wheels cars are models. They are (nearly) all built to the same 'scale', whatever that happens to be, and are proportioned accordingly. Tonka trucks, on the other hand, aren't. One could also make the same argument about Genesis/Rivet Counter level HO (or N scale) vs. 3-rail Lionel, or LEGO trains, or wooden Thomas trains. I would tend to agree with that person, if they did make that argument. Maybe not eveyone else would. Not to be the “actually” guy but…actually Hot Wheels have certain dimensions exaggerated to make them roll/run better and the ‘scale’ is based more on making them a similar size (all the same length) as opposed to adhering to a common scale. |
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Post by oldmuley on Jul 11, 2023 17:38:47 GMT -8
So basically anything that's not a 1:1 scale train is a model train?
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Post by Baikal on Jul 11, 2023 19:09:51 GMT -8
So basically anything that's not a 1:1 scale train is a model train?
1:1 can be a model too if it is modeled after a prototype. Locos & cars used in movies & ads for example. Scale doesn't enter into the definition of model. You can have a model that's larger than the prototype (e.g., the model of a tooth in the dentist office)
A model is a type of map, that is points from the prototype are mapped onto the model. Like I wrote before, as long as the topology between prototype and model is preserved, there's no hard line between "toy" & "model".
You can't consider "quality" as defining a model. Someone in 1852 carving a loco or car out of a block of pine was making a model. There are numerous bronze models of carts & wagons from 2500+ years ago.
When I was building architectural models during college we built several subdivision models at 1:800 or smaller that had a rail lines with loco & cars represented by small blocks of painted plastic. Same with cars, houses... all models sitting on one big model.
Probably should take "train" out of the discussion since it's irrelevant to the definition of "model", and "train" has a specific definition in railroading rules along the lines of "One or more engines coupled, with or without cars, displaying a marker, and authorized to operate on a main track". It would be great if modelers also used the same definition but I'm sure this thread title is refering to RR locos & cars, not necessarily just "train" as defined. A loco with cars in the yard or industrial area is not a train but certainly can be modeled.
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