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Post by tony on Jul 17, 2023 7:04:18 GMT -8
10 years ago people were saying the offshoring of train manufacturing to China is needed because it's the only place you can get model trains made cheap. Then some doubled down, some people created their own factories - to reduce costs and improve quality. But now we have 300-500% increases in costs and quality is still hit and miss affair. Now the ChiComm's are warning foreigners that they are at risk of being abducted for political purposes if they don't fully surrender to their demands.
Explain to me again, why is China the only place? Can't be cost. Can't be quality.
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Post by gevohogger on Jul 17, 2023 7:10:43 GMT -8
Then some doubled down, some people created their own factories - to reduce costs and improve quality. Who, and where? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am out of the loop and don't remember those. |
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Post by Baikal on Jul 17, 2023 9:43:46 GMT -8
10 years ago people were saying the offshoring of train manufacturing to China is needed because it's the only place you can get model trains made cheap. Then some doubled down, some people created their own factories - to reduce costs and improve quality. But now we have 300-500% increases in costs and quality is still hit and miss affair. Now the ChiComm's are warning foreigners that they are at risk of being abducted for political purposes if they don't fully surrender to their demands. Explain to me again, why is China the only place? Can't be cost. Can't be quality.
"ChiComm's are warning foreigners that they are at risk of being abducted for political purposes if they don't fully surrender to their demands". "Abducted" being an inflamatory word for "arrested". I support that. If a foreigner doesn't obey the laws of the country they are visiting, they should expect a visit from the authorities. Kicked out, fine, arrest as appropriate. I wish the USA had policies that controlled our borders & eliminated crime from non-citizens. GTFO.
You'll get your neocon war against China war soon enough. It's being pushed hard. Most Americans will support it until the costs are too high ($ and bodies)- like all the other wars we've lost / are now losing. But war is the US's biggest export. Sec Treasury Yellen just said "Ukraine aid is the best boost for global economy" ...https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230716-yellen-says-ukraine-aid-is-the-best-boost-for-global-economy
vs. China High Speed Rail growth map compare 2008 - 2023 ...https://www.reddit.com/r/Sino/comments/dyq0u5/development_of_chinas_highspeed_railway_network/
Instead, Americans should direct their anger toward those Americans that, over the last 30 years enthusiastically off-shored US manufacturing and jobs to China, Mexico, etc. Corporate and Government. Now the US is a "service economy", and much of that is currently being automated or off-shored. China ships us finished goods and we ship them scrap metal and cardboard- because that's what we got. People need to stop blaming other nations for domestic problems- which is a bigger version of the old trueism "stop blaming others".
Maybe China still is the best place to make models for export. If not, move it elsewhere. I suppose we could move manufacturing back to the USA- if there was the will and the skill. If you don't like China, stop buying stuff that's made there like 90% of Walmart & Amazon goods. And models. |
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Post by soolinerr on Jul 17, 2023 13:14:00 GMT -8
Maybe time for Viet Nam to get into this market
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 17, 2023 14:21:26 GMT -8
Then some doubled down, some people created their own factories - to reduce costs and improve quality. Who, and where? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am out of the loop and don't remember those. Well, there's Rapido. [sarcasm possibility alert] And, as we've seen, costs are reduced and quality is improved. [/sarcasm possibility alert] Ed |
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Post by ambluco on Jul 17, 2023 14:35:55 GMT -8
Why does every thread on Rapido have to devolve into some Russian propaganda thread? It turns into not about modeling but about employees, advertising, factories, etc. Keep it in the crew lounge, where it can be ignored.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 17, 2023 17:14:24 GMT -8
Rapido was mentioned as it is the only company that comes to mind that created their own factories.
If you know others, I urge you to add them to the list.
I added the additional comment because it appears that tony's observation may not have worked out in the manner he thinks. If you think I am wrong, I hope you will correct me.
You are right that my comments are not about modeling. They are about a company that is involved in the field. They are NOT about specific employees. In this case, they are not about employees at all.
What do you mean using the phrase "...some Russian propaganda thread"? Are you suggesting I'm fabricating "facts"? Are you suggesting I am making up that Rapido has its own factory?
Ed
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Post by gevohogger on Jul 18, 2023 3:56:11 GMT -8
Rapido was mentioned as it is the only company that comes to mind that created their own factories. If you know others, I urge you to add them to the list. +2
We all know about Rapido.... But when Tony was complaining about "why does it always have to be in China", we were all kind of hoping he was going to tell us about all the awesome successful factories that have opened elsewhere.
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Post by talltim on Jul 18, 2023 7:10:33 GMT -8
It doesn't have to be China. But while the costs of producing stuff in China has gone up a lot they've gone up everywhere else too. And there is a critical mass in China of people with both the skills to design for manufacture and to put together model trains. These things can be learnt elsewhere, but it would take time (and therefore money) so the next place has to have significantly lower other costs to make the leap worthwhile.
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Post by Baikal on Jul 18, 2023 8:43:27 GMT -8
It doesn't have to be China. But while the costs of producing stuff in China has gone up a lot they've gone up everywhere else too. And there is a critical mass in China of people with both the skills to design for manufacture and to put together model trains. These things can be learnt elsewhere, but it would take time (and therefore money) so the next place has to have significantly lower other costs to make the leap worthwhile.
So we're looking for a culture / nation / people clever enough to build quality models to sell at reasonable prices, yet stupid enough to accept low wages.
David St. Hubbins:
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Post by crblue on Jul 18, 2023 10:12:59 GMT -8
10 years ago, my house was worth 1/3 less than it is today.
Prices have gone up worldwide, not just China. Just because the price increases in China are more than you'd like, doesn't mean that the same math still doesn't apply in America too. Producing trains in America would also be more expensive. AFAIK, the only two companies that have factories in America are Micro Trains and Kadee. And even then, they're not exclusively made in america, nor have they been able to sustain prices since 2013.
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Post by tony on Jul 18, 2023 10:53:18 GMT -8
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Post by riogrande on Jul 18, 2023 11:11:20 GMT -8
One thing about China, they have instituted a security policy which essentially means they could detain foreigners on business at will. That link confirms what I've been reading: arbitrary enforcement of local laws.
That policy will have a chilling effect on foreign investment I would think. I often wonder how much longer we will be getting our toys manufactured there. Certainly if/when China invades Taiwan, as they seem bent on doing, that would probably bring a whole raft of sanctions down, like what happened to Russia. Seems doubtful we would be getting trains from there after that.
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Post by locochris on Jul 18, 2023 12:48:07 GMT -8
How does Kadee get away with selling their cars for close to what their competitors sell them for?
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Post by alexandrianick on Jul 18, 2023 15:16:49 GMT -8
How does Kadee get away with selling their cars for close to what their competitors sell them for? Kadee is running a business model that no one else really does. They don't really roll out new models. There's no R&D expenditure when you're just rolling out PS-1 boxcars indefinitely. Their rolling stock is a side project to their core business anyhow. |
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Post by Baikal on Jul 18, 2023 15:28:52 GMT -8
How does Kadee get away with selling their cars for close to what their competitors sell them for?
Probably due to sunk costs. They were making stuff in the USA long ago, they kept it here (yay Kadee) while other companies saw greener pa$tures in far-away places. So Kadee's skills, equipment, maybe even structures and land were already amortized. |
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johns
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Post by johns on Jul 19, 2023 1:50:56 GMT -8
How does Kadee get away with selling their cars for close to what their competitors sell them for?
Probably due to sunk costs. They were making stuff in the USA long ago, they kept it here (yay Kadee) while other companies saw greener pa$tures in far-away places. So Kadee's skills, equipment, maybe even structures and land were already amortized. I always wondered why Kadee does not run multiple reporting mark numbers. I often see cars I would like two or three of. Seems like they are missing an opportunity. |
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Post by bnsf971 on Jul 19, 2023 3:22:16 GMT -8
Probably due to sunk costs. They were making stuff in the USA long ago, they kept it here (yay Kadee) while other companies saw greener pa$tures in far-away places. So Kadee's skills, equipment, maybe even structures and land were already amortized. I always wondered why Kadee does not run multiple reporting mark numbers. I often see cars I would like two or three of. Seems like they are missing an opportunity. Way back when, I asked one of the Edwards brothers about how they determined pricing of their cars. Among other things, they figured cost for printing at .25 per pass per print.This was when they had just started printing data on the ends, so if they wanted to change a road number, it would add $1 to the price of the car. At a time when a car was $12, adding a dollar to the price was significant. Now, with many cars exceeding $50, and more than a few exceeding $100, adding a dollar doesn't sound so bad, but I'm sure their costs have also risen, so the cost of extra passes have likely gone up, as well. If the cost of extra passes have risen like the cost of everything else, it would probably cost at least a dollar per pass, now. $4 per car "does" sound like a lot, just for an extra road number. |
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johns
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Post by johns on Jul 19, 2023 8:44:24 GMT -8
I always wondered why Kadee does not run multiple reporting mark numbers. I often see cars I would like two or three of. Seems like they are missing an opportunity. Way back when, I asked one of the Edwards brothers about how they determined pricing of their cars. Among other things, they figured cost for printing at .25 per pass per print.This was when they had just started printing data on the ends, so if they wanted to change a road number, it would add $1 to the price of the car. At a time when a car was $12, adding a dollar to the price was significant. Now, with many cars exceeding $50, and more than a few exceeding $100, adding a dollar doesn't sound so bad, but I'm sure their costs have also risen, so the cost of extra passes have likely gone up, as well. If the cost of extra passes have risen like the cost of everything else, it would probably cost at least a dollar per pass, now. $4 per car "does" sound like a lot, just for an extra road number. So I guess you got the word from the horses mouth. Does seem a hight price for printing all of one number, changing the pads, printing a run of another number, etc. But I don't have any experience here. Thanks for the answer though. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 19, 2023 11:26:40 GMT -8
I always wondered why Kadee does not run multiple reporting mark numbers. I often see cars I would like two or three of. Seems like they are missing an opportunity. They have: 1. They did three numbers for a Monon 40' box: CIL 726, 843, 741--part numbers 4012, 4013, 4014. That ain't the only time. 2. They've also done repeats of the same scheme, but spread out. 3. They have done multiple extra numbers for RHS's. I got three each of two RF&P scheme/cars. And that's besides the one they sold to the public. Ed |
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Post by canrailfan on Jul 19, 2023 20:33:04 GMT -8
The model train factories in China might like us to think they are the only ones who can produce good model trains. They're not. I found a video about Roco that's very interesting. The factory is located in Slovakia. The video shows a lot of automation and modern production processes. RocoAll the skills are there, maybe that's where U.S.-based model train companies should be looking for new production. |
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