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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Nov 23, 2023 9:17:13 GMT -8
I recently acquired a NOS Proto 2K E8/9 Undecorated in box. Plan is to build one of the Green NYC units.
Before I undertake the project, I will go over the mechanism and install a Loksound decoder, Keep Alive and speakers.
Does anyone have any experience with or knowledge of Proto Crack(ed) Gear issues with the E8/9? I have a supply of A-line gears on hand and will install new gears if there is that history.
Thanks in advance for any information.
Happy Thanksgiving to all here on the ARF!
Thanks for all the information shared here as well as the spirited discourse of ideas we enjoy!
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sdevo
New Member
Posts: 22
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Post by sdevo on Nov 23, 2023 14:17:15 GMT -8
Swapping Gears in a Proto is super simple, having a jig to press the wheel into the gear helps. DO NOT sand or file the inner diameter of the gear, it is press fit. Make sure you use a Standards gauge for the correct distance between wheel axles. Cleaning out and adding new lube to the gear box is highly recommended. The A-line gears will work.
I have done dozens of these gear changes, a Proto without broken gears is more surprising than one with.
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Post by lvrr325 on Nov 23, 2023 15:44:54 GMT -8
The E8 is one of the few Proto 6-axle locomotives that uses the same axle gear and is subject to the crack issue.
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Nov 23, 2023 20:54:00 GMT -8
Swapping Gears in a Proto is super simple, having a jig to press the wheel into the gear helps. DO NOT sand or file the inner diameter of the gear, it is press fit. Make sure you use a Standards gauge for the correct distance between wheel axles. Cleaning out and adding new lube to the gear box is highly recommended. The A-line gears will work. I have done dozens of these gear changes, a Proto without broken gears is more surprising than one with. Agreed, did a fleet of 7 Alco FA/B units and 27 of 28 gears were split. #28 was changed as well…  Thanks for the information sdevo and lvrr325…confirming my expectations on the future project. |
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ictom
Full Member
Posts: 106
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Post by ictom on Nov 24, 2023 4:38:53 GMT -8
Just a warning if you might decide to try the Walthers complete axle-gear replacements: they aren't the same length as the original proto units. I found you had to bend in the metal side frames slightly to keep them from falling out.
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Post by Judge Doom on Nov 27, 2023 19:52:09 GMT -8
The Proto E-units didn't tend to have cracked gear syndrome like all the 4-axle Athearn "clone-drive" units did (the GP7/9/18/20/30 etc, BL2, and FA & FB 1/2 were very problematic models for this). Nor did the Proto SW's, GP38-2's or SD7/9 types suffer from it. The gear and gearbox designs on those were slightly different.
The problem is so old that some replacement gears I got over 10+ years ago from Walthers (when they were giving out full warranty replacement wheelsets for free) have actually cracked themselves now! The Athearn axle gears (part 60024) I've used on some as replacements seem to be holding up well for the most part (one or two have developed minor cracks around the tube ends, but not through the gear part). All the latest Athearn 60024 replacement gears I've purchased have eliminated the notch on one end, and have a much much MUCH harder time using as they are a tighter press-fit than past 60024 sets with the notch.
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Post by lvrr325 on Nov 28, 2023 10:10:26 GMT -8
The Proto six axle as used under E's uses the same axle gear design. It might even be cloned from Athearn SD40-2 trucks. And all of those gears crack, either because of the plastic they used or maybe something didn't get translated exactly from English to metric. I have an early run E8 sitting about five feet away that needs gears.
Interestingly my dad asked me about an Athearn F7 he had that was making the clunk clunk clunk sound, so I checked and all of it's gears have cracked. It's much less common, but this is about the third one I've seen. Putting them through rapid temperature changes, like if you left it in the car in the winter and brought it right inside your warm house, might exacerbate the problem.
The last few times I did 60024 swaps I took a sharp X-acto type blade and opened the ends just a bit. That made them easier to get started. I didn't even notice the notch being absent. Makes me wonder if they're actually the Proto gear, since Athearn got access to that tooling with the MDC RS3s.
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mdq
Full Member
Posts: 131
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Post by mdq on Nov 30, 2023 9:11:19 GMT -8
I read somewhere (can't find it now) that the green box vs the grey box (for the loco) don't have broken axles as the problem was fix back then. I am not sure which one (grey vs green or the other way around), it was posted on a forum from someone that seem to know a lot about Proto locomotives. If I find the link I'll post it here.
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Dec 1, 2023 12:48:16 GMT -8
Mine is in a light blue box  |
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Post by Judge Doom on Dec 1, 2023 13:50:56 GMT -8
I read somewhere (can't find it now) that the green box vs the grey box (for the loco) don't have broken axles as the problem was fix back then. I am not sure which one (grey vs green or the other way around), it was posted on a forum from someone that seem to know a lot about Proto locomotives. If I find the link I'll post it here. Models in the large 2-window blue box (or brown for very early releases) were earlier and more prone to gear cracking. By later runs in the 1-window grey box, different or a better gear design may have been used. But they still may possibly crack over time… |
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Post by lvrr325 on Dec 1, 2023 14:02:31 GMT -8
Yes, I have several grey box which all seem to be fine as of last check.
I got lucky in fact, I found the two LV Tuscan GP18s for $40 each and both with d--n good weathering, they match pictures pretty close.
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Post by scl1234 on Dec 3, 2023 12:03:21 GMT -8
For the few "loose" 60024'S I come across, Barge Cement/Canopy Glue* gets added, the wheelset gauged then set aside to dry for 12 hrs. They go in the next day. Never had a problem with any wheelset "fixed" this way coming loose.
*Evergreen brand
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Post by Judge Doom on Dec 5, 2023 10:02:27 GMT -8
For the few "loose" 60024'S I come across, Barge Cement/Canopy Glue* gets added, the wheelset gauged then set aside to dry for 12 hrs. They go in the next day. Never had a problem with any wheelset "fixed" this way coming loose. *Evergreen brand There's two kinds of cracks with those gears: hairline cracks along the side tubes that are generally okay to leave or add glue to fix a loose wheel (I've seen this on some older Atlas models too, and fixed it as such), and then there's cracks that go into or all the way through the gear section in the middle. When the gear splits like that it expands ever so slightly and causes the teeth not to mesh properly, thus the classic "thumping" or clicking noise when the model is run. By that point it can't really be fixed short of gear replacement. Depending on how bad it is, one or both wheels might be loose, or not. In other news, I just checked my newer LL GP9 in the single pane "grey box" (purchased NIB, barely run), and one of its four gears has indeed split through, and another is developing a hairline crack in the middle. So the later "grey box" clone drive units aren't immune to Cracked Gear Syndrome. The other two gears look fine, for now. |
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Dec 5, 2023 14:50:08 GMT -8
For the few "loose" 60024'S I come across, Barge Cement/Canopy Glue* gets added, the wheelset gauged then set aside to dry for 12 hrs. They go in the next day. Never had a problem with any wheelset "fixed" this way coming loose. *Evergreen brand There's two kinds of cracks with those gears: hairline cracks along the side tubes that are generally okay to leave or add glue to fix a loose wheel (I've seen this on some older Atlas models too, and fixed it as such), and then there's cracks that go into or all the way through the gear section in the middle. When the gear splits like that it expands ever so slightly and causes the teeth not to mesh properly, thus the classic "thumping" or clicking noise when the model is run. By that point it can't really be fixed short of gear replacement. Depending on how bad it is, one or both wheels might be loose, or not. In other news, I just checked my newer LL GP9 in the single pane "grey box" (purchased NIB, barely run), and one of its four gears has indeed split through, and another is developing a hairline crack in the middle. So the later "grey box" clone drive units aren't immune to Cracked Gear Syndrome. The other two gears look fine, for now. If you were in deep enough to determine that, why not proactively replace gears instead of hoping, for now. |
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Post by Judge Doom on Dec 6, 2023 0:00:13 GMT -8
If you were in deep enough to determine that, why not proactively replace gears instead of hoping, for now. Because my regular local supplier is out of them at the moment, and the unit is earmarked for a future strip and repaint project. |
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bboc
New Member
Posts: 29
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Post by bboc on Dec 24, 2023 20:35:23 GMT -8
How can I acquire or make a jig for putting the gears on. I have a very tough time with my fingers trying to do it.
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