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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Feb 12, 2024 9:30:37 GMT -8
I'm in the very early stages of working on a project with a Proto 2000 E-8.
I've been having problems getting pieces to stick together using Tamiya thin solvent glue as well as a couple varieties of ACC. Is there a paint or something that might be on the shell that resists sticking? Example. I glued the front pilot piece to the nose end of the shell using capillary action of the solvent. A few hours later, I picked it up to work on it and the while part just popped right off. This morning a door on the rear is giving me fits trying to get it to adhere. Anyone with knowledge is appreciated. Trying SO hard not to get finger prints all over hell...thanks.
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Post by Christian on Feb 12, 2024 9:46:40 GMT -8
The shell is probably ABS which the Tamiya cement doesn't like. I've had 50/50 with Tamiya and ABS. Tamiya makes an ABS cement called "Tamiya Cement For ABS." Catchy name, huh? The classic model cement for ABS is "Plastruct Plastic Weld Cement."
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Post by prr 4467 on Feb 12, 2024 10:10:16 GMT -8
There is something else you might possibly try for some of these tasks:
This is better for those gap filling, heavier glue weight solutions, but it can be used in tiny quantities as well. It is heavy enough for instance that when I break a loco body tab, I can glue the body to the deck piece and not have any visible glue on the outside at all if I'm careful.:
Bowser at the bottom of their homepage recommends or did recently recommend LazerBond to glue abs plastics, specifically handrails, and I can attest that it works on handrails and other items without any kind of pre-treatment, and once dry it can be sanded and painted. It is an acrylic resin, and NOT a ca-type glue. It dries clear and shiny. It cures in as little as 5 seconds as long as it is a fairly recent purchase, with the included small push-button uv/laser light. As it ages, the cure time may increase requiring longer exposure to the uv/laser light.
The light has to be able to "see" the glue, meaning I typically use it on the inside of body shells so that it doesn't show on the outside. I have successfully used it to glue Kadee boxcar doors shut when the doors were sticking out too far away from the body. As I said above, it does work to glue broken handrails and is very tough once you get it to cure. If you abuse the glue joint, you might have to re-do it--but that is also possible, and I have.
It is non-staining, and any excess can typically be cleaned up with a damp paper towel or cotton swab or maybe a little rubbing alcohol (BEFORE you cure it with the uv light). Once cured, you may need very fine grit sandpaper to remove any ooops...It is relatively easy to work with compared to the CA glues.
I also have used the Dr. Mike's type hybrid glues with good success.
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Feb 12, 2024 10:46:15 GMT -8
Thanks gents...
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Post by onequiknova on Feb 12, 2024 11:11:39 GMT -8
The old proto E8 shells are not ABS, and can be glued with regular solvent glues, the pilots and some of the other added on details however, were molded in Delrin. A real pain of a plastic to glue. I usually scuff up the Delrin with some 400 grit to give it some tooth for the ACC to grab onto. There may be better alternatives for gluing Delrin. Another problem with the old Proto's is the undecorated models were sprayed with gray primer, which will cause problems with solvent glues. Your best bet is to give the shell a bath in 91% Isopropyl alcohol to remove the primer.
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Post by prr 4467 on Feb 12, 2024 14:02:32 GMT -8
There were complaints a number of years ago regarding specifically the delrin handrails, but also the other delrin disadvanatages, as discussed above.
This is why Athearn switched to Celcon, and most others have switched to a very closely related form of ABS that just doesn't have the same trade name as Celcon.
The Delrin handrails tended to be too soft, too wavy, couldn't be painted well (required priming which made them appear too thick after multiple paint layers), and didn't stay in the holes on the locos as well. This is exactly why Bowser spent many thousands of dollars re-tooling older handrails, in some cases twice now, so that they look better and stay on the models better. The average person may not ever notice the differences, but there are differences from the older handrails. Clearly Athearn has retooled their handrails, also, and Atlas and idk which others. It seems that the newer ABS plastic parts are more stable with less of the waviness, etc.
The Celcon and ABS plastics retain some of the flexibility of the Delrin, while being better painted, sanded, glued, etc.
Besides tooling becoming worn out or just plain lost in China, I'm wondering to what extent the issues with the tooling of the older models (things like the handrails) are what is preventing some locos from being re-released, that one would think otherwise would sell (U33C and U36C for instance).
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Feb 12, 2024 15:51:43 GMT -8
"the pilots and some of the other added on details however, were molded in Delrin."
The pilot is one particular recalcitrant sparking my inquiry. The exit door surround at the rear another.
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Post by prr 4467 on Feb 12, 2024 17:47:45 GMT -8
I should have mentioned that I have glued footboard pilots (that didn't fit flush as well as I would have liked) onto Atlas C420 diesels with the Lazerbond, and they held.
The door surround--as long as you can get the uv light to the inside edge of the glue joint to set the lazerbond...perhaps. (inside assumes you are trying to hide any glue mark)
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Feb 12, 2024 20:34:58 GMT -8
Correct assumption. Going to be out of circulation for a few days. I’ll look for some of that Lazerbond. I had some several years ago, sort of underwhelmed with it.
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Post by Judge Doom on Feb 13, 2024 7:02:33 GMT -8
I've had troubles in the past using the Tamiya cement to glue parts to some old Atlas shells, in my experience Testors cement seems to work better for those cases.
Hitting the area with some light sanding with 800-1000 grit sandpaper might also help adhesion.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 13, 2024 7:51:56 GMT -8
I had a problem with a bottle of MEK--it went "bad". By that, I mean that it stopped making a bond between styrene pieces. Used to work, then didn't.
I found out that MEK is hygroscopic, meaning that it will pull water out of the air. After a while, there's enough water to screw up the solvent effect.
Other chemicals are also hygroscopic (alcohol being one).
I wonder if other solvent-type chemicals might also be hygroscopic, and lose their ability to bond some plastics.
Ed
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Feb 13, 2024 9:42:34 GMT -8
Very possible, Ed, but the Tamiya stuff has been 100% positive results with a couple styrene projects I’ve also been working on the other side of the room while glue/paint is drying. Sanding or scraping are in the “toolkit” as well, Judge D.  All the input is greatly appreciated Trying to avoid the forceful application of frustrating parts against the wall….hard to do when they’re stuck to your fingers than where they belong….  . Having eye surgery tomorrow so I should probably just put everything aside and chill until I can see again…instead of rushing  |
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Post by prr 4467 on Feb 13, 2024 16:00:02 GMT -8
Best wishes for a great result of the surgery, and on this project.
I know we live in an imperfect world. Sometimes I'm surprised at how well the different products might work for a given task, and sometimes I am just underwhelmed. Let us know how you make out with this.
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Feb 19, 2024 20:55:48 GMT -8
U30C, Thank you...surgery went well, healing is a pain but coming along drop by drop for another 3 1/2 weeks. The white cane has been delayed. As for the E8, I took a look at some UV activated 'glue' and ordered some...https://www.amazon.com/EDSRDXS-Bonding-Welding-Quick-Drying-Waterproof/dp/B0BQBQD4XB/ref=rvi_d_sccl_3/135-1541004-7579421?pd_rd_w=ou5WC&content-id=amzn1.sym.f5690a4d-f2bb-45d9-9d1b-736fee412437&pf_rd_p=f5690a4d-f2bb-45d9-9d1b-736fee412437&pf_rd_r=23T7WKTYH785Z0J1NQKT&pd_rd_wg=Qb8w9&pd_rd_r=23557992-e6ae-4477-aa67-3f1e07b11dd5&pd_rd_i=B0BQBQD4XB&psc=1 "EDSRDXS UV Bonding & Welding Glue Kit UV Super Bonding Glue with 3W UV Light Quick-Drying & Waterproof Liquid Plastic Welding Kit for Plastic, Glass, Metal 0.35oz (10ml) " It proved to provide the solution to the "chin" piece refusing to stay stuck to the front of the E8 quite well. It also has helped me with the rooftop fans that also seemed to be made of that "polyunstickium" that the pilot piece was. Thank you all for assisting me.  |
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Feb 20, 2024 1:30:20 GMT -8
U30C, Thank you...surgery went well, healing is a pain but coming along drop by drop for another 3 1/2 weeks. The white cane has been delayed. As for the E8, I took a look at some UV activated 'glue' and ordered some...https://www.amazon.com/EDSRDXS-Bonding-Welding-Quick-Drying-Waterproof/dp/B0BQBQD4XB/ref=rvi_d_sccl_3/135-1541004-7579421?pd_rd_w=ou5WC&content-id=amzn1.sym.f5690a4d-f2bb-45d9-9d1b-736fee412437&pf_rd_p=f5690a4d-f2bb-45d9-9d1b-736fee412437&pf_rd_r=23T7WKTYH785Z0J1NQKT&pd_rd_wg=Qb8w9&pd_rd_r=23557992-e6ae-4477-aa67-3f1e07b11dd5&pd_rd_i=B0BQBQD4XB&psc=1 "EDSRDXS UV Bonding & Welding Glue Kit UV Super Bonding Glue with 3W UV Light Quick-Drying & Waterproof Liquid Plastic Welding Kit for Plastic, Glass, Metal 0.35oz (10ml) " It proved to provide the solution to the "chin" piece refusing to stay stuck to the front of the E8 quite well. It also has helped me with the rooftop fans that also seemed to be made of that "polyunstickium" that the pilot piece was. Thank you all for assisting me. Going off on a tangent here, Amazon URLs can be edited before sharing: remove everything after the identifier that follows the "dp", in this case the URL can be shortened to: www.amazon.com/EDSRDXS-Bonding-Welding-Quick-Drying-Waterproof/dp/B0BQBQD4XBEven the text that's after the host name can be removed -- it's used purely to make the URLs somewhat readable, so the shortest complete URL is: www.amazon.com/dp/B0BQBQD4XB |
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Post by prr 4467 on Feb 20, 2024 10:45:25 GMT -8
Karl--
I'm very glad you seem to be feeling better, and I'm also glad that you found a product that worked for at least the two tasks.
The older I get I feel badly when/if I recommend something that doesn't work out, so I'm really glad to hear that it worked.
The diaphragm on the back could be a little bit more challenging issue, but at least you have options to try.
My local dealer says the Tamiya lightweight acc glue can be a good solution, but I wasn't able to find that one at Timonium. I did end up buying a similar acc glue that dries clear, without the white stains, and says you can just touch it to the joint and capillary action will do the rest...but I don't know how well it will adhere for a diaphragm which might actually get bumped, etc.
Best wishes for an excellent recovery so you can finish more of your projects.
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Post by rockfan on Feb 20, 2024 10:51:40 GMT -8
I remember you could get testors glue almost anywhere. Had to order it from Amazon.
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Post by dtinut on Feb 20, 2024 13:22:16 GMT -8
Is this an undec model? Proto models had a habit of painting undecs in a undercoat grey paint.
You maybe want to scrap the area to remove any paint before glueing...
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Feb 21, 2024 6:15:52 GMT -8
Is this an undec model? Proto models had a habit of painting undecs in a undercoat grey paint. You maybe want to scrap the area to remove any paint before glueing... Yes. Yes this was painted, I stripped it with 91% alcohol and scrubbed off the grey paint. It just washed off, didn't flake off like some Proto painted models. Even with it off, neither ACC nor Tamiya Thin Cement would hold. I picked up a couple epoxy products but tried the UV material first and it worked well. Everything I've worked on has been "difficult" this winter. Part of the joys of model railroading.  U30C, thanks for the kind words. You and everyone have been helpful, more than you know. Eyes are improving, "just" 2 more weeks of drops and then new glasses before "the new normal" arrives, hopefully.  I have managed to put off the white cane...  |
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Post by cpr4200 on Mar 2, 2024 10:28:12 GMT -8
Tamiya makes an ABS cement called "Tamiya Cement For ABS." "Cement for ABS" doesn't show up on the Tamiya USA website, but it appears to be available on ebay from suppliers in Asia and Europe. Plastruct Plastic Weld appears to be readily available in the US. |
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Post by cpr4200 on Mar 3, 2024 9:05:51 GMT -8
I'm working on a shortened Intermountain Procor pressure unloading hopper. Styrene doesn't seem to adhere well to the body, which is a gray plastic, when using Testors liquid cement. Is the body ABS? ~ Walt
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Post by prr 4467 on Mar 3, 2024 16:24:52 GMT -8
U30C, thanks for the kind words. You and everyone have been helpful, more than you know. Eyes are improving, "just" 2 more weeks of drops and then new glasses before "the new normal" arrives, hopefully. I have managed to put off the white cane... Wilmer Eye Institute at Johns Hopkins is the best place for glaucoma treatment in the world, and my dad had a case that rapidly worsened at age 84. Dr (Quigley) there had originated some of the specialized surgeries (and founded that center) and was able to help my father when local doctors in PA could not/would not. Unfortunately, my stubborn father did not listen to the doctor's explicit directions of "no gardening" for 10 weeks and hit his head on a tree branch thus necessitating further surgery. In the meantime, he ended up going effectively blind. Had my father listened and completely followed Dr. Quigley's instructions, he would have retained at least some of his eyesight for the duration of his life, as opposed to only being able to see what color shirt I was wearing. I only mention this, off topic, so that it may help anyone else out there who is having vision issues. As the chauffer I was there and saw the test results myself; had my father listened 100% and given his one eye time to heal, he would have retained plenty of vision with just some peripheral loss. Johns Hopkins is an amazing place; they treat every patient as an individual who still matters to society. Kentuckysouthernrwy--Glad you have put off the white cane. Hope you never need it after all. I would rather go deaf (as a musician) than not be able to enjoy this hobby. |
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I have managed to put off the white cane... 