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Post by kangaroose on Mar 28, 2024 9:41:00 GMT -8
Thx, see my reply below. "This has been where Tangent, Rapido, and depending on the run, Exactrail/Arrowhead shined through much better." Did you mean Rapido? Or maybe Moloco, who, it appears, does trace all the lettering on a freight car? Yes, proof reading failed me it seems. Corrected. And yes, Moloco is certainly one of cream of the crop when it comes to recreating artwork instead of searching through serif/non-serif fonts on Adobe.
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Post by csxt8400 on Mar 28, 2024 9:44:26 GMT -8
Correct, we do NOT use ANY, not ONE font from commercial sources, they are all drawn from scratch following detailed crisp images only, right down to the 1" lettering. We have always done this. To me this attention to detail shows in our cars when you compare them to the prototype. Likewise on the CAD side for moloco, i do all the CAD work myself, no 3rd parties. I'm a professional industrial designer (since 1986) and toolmaker (since 1996) and a freight car nut, it's the only way to do all this correctly in my opinion. Nick nick molo, owner and founder Moloco "This has been where Tangent, Rapido, and depending on the run, Exactrail/Arrowhead shined through much better." Did you mean Rapido? Or maybe Moloco, who, it appears, does trace all the lettering on a freight car? Exactly right, Nick. It does show, and is very much appreciated. The car guys have a phrase "There's no replacement for displacement." If you draw the artwork correctly (as much as humanly possible given the circumstances) you will always out perform any off-the-shelf font.
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Post by Baikal on Mar 28, 2024 9:50:44 GMT -8
Correct, we do NOT use ANY, not ONE font from commercial sources, they are all drawn from scratch following detailed crisp images only, right down to the 1" lettering. We have always done this. To me this attention to detail shows in our cars when you compare them to the prototype. Likewise on the CAD side for moloco, i do all the CAD work myself, no 3rd parties. I'm a professional industrial designer (since 1986) and toolmaker (since 1996) and a freight car nut, it's the only way to do all this correctly in my opinion. Nick nick molo, owner and founder Moloco "This has been where Tangent, Rapido, and depending on the run, Exactrail/Arrowhead shined through much better." Did you mean Rapido? Or maybe Moloco, who, it appears, does trace all the lettering on a freight car?
The end result shows you care. People appriciate it. Thanks.
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Post by ambluco on Mar 29, 2024 16:20:33 GMT -8
The above quote is from Jason from another forum from 3/29.
It would seem it’s all possible before production. I realize a company doesn’t want to keep editing CAD drawings for 10 years before sending to production but I would think everything you can fix before ever tooling is way less expensive than after tooling.
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Post by cpr4200 on Mar 30, 2024 5:05:52 GMT -8
"Always try" is a little hedgy. Not the same as "always."
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Mar 31, 2024 6:13:37 GMT -8
The above quote is from Jason from another forum from 3/29. This isn't saying very much, sorry. Any company involved with manufacturing anything will want to improve their products before going into production.
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Tom
Full Member
Posts: 229
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Post by Tom on Apr 1, 2024 7:09:57 GMT -8
The above quote is from Jason from another forum from 3/29. It would seem it’s all possible before production. I realize a company doesn’t want to keep editing CAD drawings for 10 years before sending to production but I would think everything you can fix before ever tooling is way less expensive than after tooling.
Therein lies the issue. Pre-production samples can only be revised so much before new dies have to be cut. Revisions to small things will likely be done, but things that cost bigger money (new tools) or if a factory pushes back too hard..... well.
Again, this would likely be much better if production samples were done (or not as we'd get to see the same issues repeated) - this can verify many things from back and forth CAD files, conversations, paint matching, pad printing, etc.
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Post by cpr4200 on Apr 1, 2024 11:54:14 GMT -8
^^^ IIRC, Bowser has 3D prints done from their CAD before they cut tooling. Does anyone else?
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Post by cemr5396 on Apr 1, 2024 12:08:19 GMT -8
^^^ IIRC, Bowser has 3D prints done from their CAD before they cut tooling. Does anyone else? not that I've heard of, but I don't understand why. To me it seems like a genius way to catch your mistakes before it's too late.
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Post by jonklein611 on Apr 1, 2024 12:32:11 GMT -8
^^^ IIRC, Bowser has 3D prints done from their CAD before they cut tooling. Does anyone else? not that I've heard of, but I don't understand why. To me it seems like a genius way to catch your mistakes before it's too late. It's a great idea, however it will not catch any mistakes introduced in the tooling phase. There are features added in the tooling phase that could impact overall accuracy of the part (or the tooling engineer / company changes something to make their lives easier).
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Tom
Full Member
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Post by Tom on Apr 1, 2024 20:05:36 GMT -8
not that I've heard of, but I don't understand why. To me it seems like a genius way to catch your mistakes before it's too late. It's a great idea, however it will not catch any mistakes introduced in the tooling phase. There are features added in the tooling phase that could impact overall accuracy of the part (or the tooling engineer / company changes something to make their lives easier). There's a big key point. If the maker uses a different file for the cut or if they're sloppy, the 3D print will look different than the first shot. It also depends upon the skill of the printer operator....
Atlas did this for the Procor car and the Nippon-Sharyo gallery cars (possibly along with others). Bowser did this, thanks to 3D Central, initially for at least the RS-3 and Rapido did this on, at least, the GP40.
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Post by jonklein611 on Apr 2, 2024 5:54:38 GMT -8
It's a great idea, however it will not catch any mistakes introduced in the tooling phase. There are features added in the tooling phase that could impact overall accuracy of the part (or the tooling engineer / company changes something to make their lives easier). There's a big key point. If the maker uses a different file for the cut or if they're sloppy, the 3D print will look different than the first shot. It also depends upon the skill of the printer operator....
Atlas did this for the Procor car and the Nippon-Sharyo gallery cars (possibly along with others). Bowser did this, thanks to 3D Central, initially for at least the RS-3 and Rapido did this on, at least, the GP40.
It is required to be a different file for cutting the mold. Features need to be added for the sprues, partitioning for multipiece slides, ejector pin locations, and a whole slew of other items (draft angle requirements, modular inserts, etc.).
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Post by cnwfan on Apr 2, 2024 7:42:20 GMT -8
There's a big key point. If the maker uses a different file for the cut or if they're sloppy, the 3D print will look different than the first shot. It also depends upon the skill of the printer operator....
Atlas did this for the Procor car and the Nippon-Sharyo gallery cars (possibly along with others). Bowser did this, thanks to 3D Central, initially for at least the RS-3 and Rapido did this on, at least, the GP40.
It is required to be a different file for cutting the mold. Features need to be added for the sprues, partitioning for multipiece slides, ejector pin locations, and a whole slew of other items (draft angle requirements, modular inserts, etc.). Making my living as a manufacturing engineer I've both designed and purchased tooling for various products. The tooling features should not impact the overall dimensional accuracy of the part. The tooling needs to ensure that the product is dimensionally accurate per the design requirements. I'd like to have easy tooling all the time too, but sometimes it's just not possible and still meet the dimensional and tolerance requirements. Where I see the issue is that perhaps the tooling suppler isn't held to account to provide tooling that meets all the product requirements.
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Post by jonklein611 on Apr 2, 2024 8:11:38 GMT -8
It is required to be a different file for cutting the mold. Features need to be added for the sprues, partitioning for multipiece slides, ejector pin locations, and a whole slew of other items (draft angle requirements, modular inserts, etc.). Making my living as a manufacturing engineer I've both designed and purchased tooling for various products. The tooling features should not impact the overall dimensional accuracy of the part. The tooling needs to ensure that the product is dimensionally accurate per the design requirements. I'd like to have easy tooling all the time too, but sometimes it's just not possible and still meet the dimensional and tolerance requirements. Where I see the issue is that perhaps the tooling suppler isn't held to account to provide tooling that meets all the product requirements. All true. I was just bringing up the point that tooling is another change point that can cause issues / headaches in the production cycle. The concept of 3D print the file, check it over, push to tooling and assume it'll all be correct is a fools errand. Especially when the toolmaker is halfway around the world and might change things to make their lives easier (this burned Rapido on the E8s). Samples from the rough stage tooling (prior to rivets / fine details being cut) should catch most issues. Fixing said issues also becomes a challenge depending on what changes are required and who gets to eat the cost of the change and the associated delay in the project.
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Post by cnwfan on Apr 2, 2024 10:22:24 GMT -8
Making my living as a manufacturing engineer I've both designed and purchased tooling for various products. The tooling features should not impact the overall dimensional accuracy of the part. The tooling needs to ensure that the product is dimensionally accurate per the design requirements. I'd like to have easy tooling all the time too, but sometimes it's just not possible and still meet the dimensional and tolerance requirements. Where I see the issue is that perhaps the tooling suppler isn't held to account to provide tooling that meets all the product requirements. All true. I was just bringing up the point that tooling is another change point that can cause issues / headaches in the production cycle. The concept of 3D print the file, check it over, push to tooling and assume it'll all be correct is a fools errand. Especially when the toolmaker is halfway around the world and might change things to make their lives easier (this burned Rapido on the E8s). Samples from the rough stage tooling (prior to rivets / fine details being cut) should catch most issues. Fixing said issues also becomes a challenge depending on what changes are required and who gets to eat the cost of the change and the associated delay in the project. It sounds like the process is out of control if tooling suppliers can make unauthorized changes that are then accepted as being OK.
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Post by voyager989 on Apr 2, 2024 10:33:08 GMT -8
All true. I was just bringing up the point that tooling is another change point that can cause issues / headaches in the production cycle. The concept of 3D print the file, check it over, push to tooling and assume it'll all be correct is a fools errand. Especially when the toolmaker is halfway around the world and might change things to make their lives easier (this burned Rapido on the E8s). Samples from the rough stage tooling (prior to rivets / fine details being cut) should catch most issues. Fixing said issues also becomes a challenge depending on what changes are required and who gets to eat the cost of the change and the associated delay in the project. It sounds like the process is out of control if tooling suppliers can make unauthorized changes that are then accepted as being OK. Unauthorized changes by a supplier are always a risk with outsourcing, but there's almost no way a model train manufacturer could afford to completely in-house it. Some (iirc Bowser does, Hornby used to keep all their tooling in-house between runs before they purged their warehouse) keep tighter control of their tooling.
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Post by cpr4200 on Apr 2, 2024 12:57:16 GMT -8
^^^ Bowser "used to be Hornby"? What?
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Post by ssw on Apr 3, 2024 8:05:44 GMT -8
^^^ Bowser "used to be Hornby"? What? I think there's some missed punctuation there - Hornby used to shoot their own models, but have outsourced everything and closed their tooling warehouse.
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Post by voyager989 on Apr 3, 2024 12:23:08 GMT -8
^^^ Bowser "used to be Hornby"? What? I think there's some missed punctuation there - Hornby used to shoot their own models, but have outsourced everything and closed their tooling warehouse. This. Hornby used to keep their tooling in the UK, the new owners were unpleasantly surprised to find how much had been junked or sold when they planned to refurbish it and re-run a lot of their older stock.
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