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Post by jbilbrey on Jun 13, 2024 16:58:00 GMT -8
Is that a fixable condition, or is it fatal? Like you said, sad that it's something that in theory they should have learned to get right decades earlier.
The only Proto steamers I've seen in person were gorgeous, but I don't think I've seen any in use.
The problem probably is there's no replacement gears, unless somebody like a NWSL was to make one. NWSL is supposed to have a replacement gear, but the one that I got didn't fit. So unless there are different drives, that route is a no-go. A deceased friend suggest that I get some glue that dries when exposed to UV light and see if that holds. Until I try that, I am stuck with a very nice looking dummy 2-8-4.
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Post by jbilbrey on Jun 13, 2024 18:07:48 GMT -8
Well said, yeah I'm one of those who missed the post apparently. Can I ask though why some of your friends don't see the logic in their release? I mean there has never been a good S-2 model made outside of maybe Division Point or Precision Scale brass and 765/759 are pretty famous US locos. Not to mention they now will have the tooling to work on the other Van Sweringen 2-8-4s such as 1225, which has never had an accurate representation either. Then we have the C&O K-4 which is a whole other ordeal etc. I see it as logical cause it kinda secures their footing with a model that should be successful, after this one they can bring new prototypes to the market that some would say are rather risky investments, like the NC&STL J3 576, not to mention some of the western steam I so want... "Different stokes for different folks." That is the short answer. The long answer is a bit more complex. My friends, and to a lesser extent myself, are trying to focus on smaller, depression-era model railroading. We all have very little space for a home layout. So, a Van Sweringen would dwarf just about anything on their layouts.
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Post by prr 4467 on Jun 14, 2024 7:22:36 GMT -8
Interesting.
My minimum mainline curve radius is 26", though there are some 32" radius curves, and my mainline is about 80' in length, all single track, very simple track plan so that I can railfan my own trains...
I love big steam, and that's what we run. Some 4-8-4's don't like my curves or rather the superelevation transitions into/out of them, but I am interested in mostly 2-10-4's or articulateds, so the NKP Berkshire is a little on the small side for my personal tastes.
If as nice as the artwork shows...may consider one. It's not that I don't like them; it's that my budget after 2-10-4's is very limited.
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Post by talltim on Jun 14, 2024 7:44:02 GMT -8
US RTR steam models seems still to be in the 'famous trains' stage, with very few of the workhorses and small locos available even in brass.
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Post by Baikal on Jun 14, 2024 8:18:06 GMT -8
US RTR steam models seems still to be in the 'famous trains' stage, with very few of the workhorses and small locos available even in brass.
Some HO Bachmann stuff like 4-4-0s & 2-6-0s are out there, but there's many more to be done. Small SP & UP...
Check out the Sesquehana & New York article in the May RMC. The small Bachmann (and brass) locos look nice in part because ethey are on a really good-looking layout.
Some older small brass can be had cheap but the modeler is usually going to have to but some work into them to make them run well.
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Post by wagnersteve on Jun 14, 2024 10:12:49 GMT -8
6/14/24, about 2 p.m.
Mant good posts on this thread better than mine, but I'll add another.
I agree with Baikal's most recent one. I do have one or two inexpensive ready-to-run 2-6-0s. But I regret never having been able to get a sheet brass kit, offered years ago by a man named Mellor, I think, for a cab for a Mogul with a single window on each of its sides that has a shallow arch at the top, matching many Boston & Maine locos built by Alco or one of its predecessors.
I hope once I finally get my layout in a small room here at home running I will be able to make it look good.
My approach to selecting locos is more sentimental than systematic. D&H and B&M are my two favorite roads, but I like the possibility of running locos from some other favorite lines, mostly in New England and the Northeastern US, quite broadly defined to include the Nickel Plate Road, plus Canada, plus a very few others. That's even more true for freight cars. My roster is big enough that I could put cars of locos from any of several "eras" on my layout at one time.
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Post by grahamline on Jun 14, 2024 11:29:35 GMT -8
I could see Moloco but nobody pre-orders from Tangent. If you have a trusted dealer who orders from Tangent and doesn't require any money up front, you have a better chance of getting a place in line. Walks like a pre-order, quacks like a pre-order. Not an SP modeler myself, so I defer to people with the expertise. I find Cortopassi's videos not comprehensive, but his general assessments aren't over-indulgent like some of the boosters out there. Just basics. And no suspicious promotion of the same stuff from the same people all the time.
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Post by hudsonyard on Jun 14, 2024 13:29:12 GMT -8
US RTR steam models seems still to be in the 'famous trains' stage, with very few of the workhorses and small locos available even in brass.
Some HO Bachmann stuff like 4-4-0s & 2-6-0s are out there, but there's many more to be done. Small SP & UP...
Check out the Sesquehana & New York article in the May RMC. The small Bachmann (and brass) locos look nice in part because ethey are on a really good-looking layout.
Some older small brass can be had cheap but the modeler is usually going to have to but some work into them to make them run well.
that SQ&NY layout looks like a ton of fun, i wanna operate there. his traffic in relation to the prototype looks extremely well thought out.
It may be a PRR specific loco but the BLI H-10 2-8-0s once you remove the BLI electronics are some of the nicest small steam i've come across, pulls a ton too. Captures the brutish nature of one of them quite well.
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Post by prr 4467 on Jun 14, 2024 18:04:04 GMT -8
I could see Moloco but nobody pre-orders from Tangent. If you have a trusted dealer who orders from Tangent and doesn't require any money up front, you have a better chance of getting a place in line. Walks like a pre-order, quacks like a pre-order. Not an SP modeler myself, so I defer to people with the expertise. I find Cortopassi's videos not comprehensive, but his general assessments aren't over-indulgent like some of the boosters out there. Just basics. And no suspicious promotion of the same stuff from the same people all the time. Explain this to me? Since WHEN did Tangent do any pre-orders? It is their publicly stated policy that at the moment something is announced it is physically available at their warehouse to purchase. So there are no special favors, but there have been times a product sold out quickly. I'm not a dealer, but I've gotten every single freight car I ever wanted to have from Tangent, just some maybe in smaller quantities than I was hoping for at the time, because they sold out quickly, but I still got some.
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Post by jbilbrey on Jun 14, 2024 18:46:22 GMT -8
US RTR steam models seems still to be in the 'famous trains' stage, with very few of the workhorses and small locos available even in brass. With a few notable exceptions, what you said pretty much describes the current US Steam Locomotive market. A few years ago, some tried to lobby a manufacturer to release a HO model of the N&W 4-8-0 and were told, "Nope, we're not interested." Older brass can be an attractive alternative IF you can find a model of a locomotive that you are interested in. And, there are some steals out there if you are patient enough.
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Post by mvlandsw on Jun 14, 2024 19:27:14 GMT -8
The problem that I had with Proto Berkshires was not gear cracking. The non geared axles are insulated, held in gage, and in quarter by being forced into a plastic tube. These tubes are what cracked, allowing the wheels to go out of gage and quarter. I repaired them by reaming the tube for a slip fit and epoxying the axles in place.
Mark Vinski
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Post by sd80mac on Jun 15, 2024 11:03:47 GMT -8
The problem that I had with Proto Berkshires was not gear cracking. The non geared axles are insulated, held in gage, and in quarter by being forced into a plastic tube. These tubes are what cracked, allowing the wheels to go out of gage and quarter. I repaired them by reaming the tube for a slip fit and epoxying the axles in place. Mark Vinski This is good to know. I have 4 P2K Berks, and none have failed me yet, but I suppose its just a matter of time.
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Post by prr 4467 on Jun 15, 2024 13:37:10 GMT -8
Maybe some just don't care because it's not "their" railroad, but BLI just took pre-orders (the pre-order period is closed now) for PRR B-6 0-6-0 switchers--AND they included unlettered versions.
I discussed the whole "small steam" issue with the moderator of one of the brass model groups over on Facebook a couple years ago, who also is close to the owner of Boo Rim, the largest remaining builder of brass models over in Korea, and he shared some illuminating facts with me. Whether you are building a small HO switcher in brass, or a big 2-8-2, many of the costs are the same. For the brand-new brass models coming out, as well as ones done in recent years, the little switchers cost almost as much as a larger loco to make. This is because of all the labor operations and the relative numbers of parts that get made for either loco.
There are a bunch of recent Southern Pacific steam switchers that have been made over the last 20 years. They had some complex paint schemes with blue or green boilers, black details, silver running board edges, red cab roofs, etc. Their street prices have climbed from nearly $1300 per loco to over $2000 per loco--for an 0-6-0 switcher.
Additionally, the moderator shared with me that the minimum build quantity in brass for any loco is 100 regardless of what the loco might be.
One of the issues is finding 100 different buyers for some brass locos. This by itself limits what can be made and sold for a profit.
BLI has done very well with choosing prototypes to be modeled as brass hybrids that can literally sell thousands of models. By this fall when the next run of PRR Q-2's arrives, it appears they will have imported more than 5000 PRR Q-2's over 4 or 5 separate production runs. Those are actually very good sales numbers.
How many small steam locos could realistically generate those kinds of sales numbers? BLI has already produced both correct PRR 2-8-0's as well as many roadnames of a generic 2-8-0, and more than one production run. They have clearly sold very well. For any small locomotive, a company like BLI would have to be able to sell thousands of them for a diecast model to be worthwhile to make.
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Post by talltim on Jun 17, 2024 2:03:06 GMT -8
US RTR steam models seems still to be in the 'famous trains' stage, with very few of the workhorses and small locos available even in brass.
Some HO Bachmann stuff like 4-4-0s & 2-6-0s are out there, but there's many more to be done. Small SP & UP...
Check out the Sesquehana & New York article in the May RMC. The small Bachmann (and brass) locos look nice in part because ethey are on a really good-looking layout.
Some older small brass can be had cheap but the modeler is usually going to have to but some work into them to make them run well.
Most of the smaller locos are pretty generic, as you say by calling them 4-4-0 and 2-6-0 rather than specific RR's loco class. They can often be customised to suit, but they are rarely sold as an accurate model for any one specific road. The manufacturers have proved that you don't need to sell multi thousands of a particular loco to make a profit, but just not in the US. There are many examples of smaller, older and rarer models of locos produced for the UK market and in the UK they are often competing with existing kits, which pretty much don't exist in the US
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pjm20
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Post by pjm20 on Jun 17, 2024 3:33:01 GMT -8
The Bachmann modern 4-4-0 and low drivered 4-6-0 are Ma & Pa prototypes, and the 2-6-0 is a CGW prototype. All of these have been found in the MR Encyclopedia of Steam. The Russian Decapod and the IC 2-8-0 the famous Spectrum 2-8-0 of past is based on is in their too amongst their other offerings of notable locomotives like the K4 and the Hudson. I'd say if Bachmann makes another steam locomotive it will be probably found in this reference book. The only "anamoly" is the high drivered 4-6-0, but that's just the Ma & Pa 4-6-0 with 63" drivers instead of 52".
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Post by prr 4467 on Jun 17, 2024 21:19:11 GMT -8
I researched the Bachmann 2-8-0 years ago, and actually it is not based on an IC prototype, but instead on a GM&O prototype, at least according to what I was able to find at that time. Close to IC maybe, but closer to GM&O. However, I don't have that MR book.
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Post by wagnersteve on Jun 18, 2024 4:05:07 GMT -8
June 18, 2024 starting at 7:49 a.m., EDT
The two volumes of Kalmbach's Locomotive Cyclopedia, one on steam locos, the other on diesels, were very well done. I used to be able to borrow the one on steamers from the public library in the town next to mine, but, like many fine books, it has been "de-accessioned". Both public and university libraries have limited space and tend to get rid of hard-copy books that don't circulate much. That's one reason that I borrow as many books as I do from my local library, using Inter Library Loan when necessary, partly to increase their circulation figures. The consolidation of the Newton, Mass., public library into one central building a few years back meant the loss of numerous books of great interest to railfans and modelers. That's one reason why I go to book sales at various libraries.
Not all published scale drawings, even in commercial model railroad publications, are reliable.
Delaware & Hudson Steam Locomotives 1828-1953, by Christopher A. Shepherd, Dingman Ferry, PA: Garbely Publishing Company, 2024, is excellent. So is Minuteman Steam: Boston & Maine Steam Locomotives 1911-1958, by Harry A. Frye, Littleton, MA; Boston & Maine Railroad Historical Society, 1982, both hardbound and softbound. There are similar books for many larger railroads.
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Post by prr 4467 on Jun 18, 2024 8:59:56 GMT -8
Absolutely true.
Not to pick on any particular magazines like specifically Mainline Modeler, but some of the drawings published years ago are suitable as a general outline and might be helpful to someone scratch building a model, who wanted to be "close enough" but they are by no means "correct" 100% accurate drawings.
There seem to be a lot of books that once upon a time were readily available both at train shows and at the libraries that just now are gone from general circulation.
There have been several questions regarding lightweight passenger cars lately on these forums, and there were excellent books on the subject covering the various railroads' passenger cars (Pullman Standard Passenger Car Reference series?) but I haven't seen one of them in a long time. I once did own the one that covered Rio Grande lightweights but failed to keep it.
I guess I thought they'd "always" be around, or I simply thought that accurate passenger cars were way beyond my budget such that I didn't pursue them further. Even 30 years ago at $200 and up per car, it was difficult to find all the Rio Grande lightweights let alone to afford them.
Regarding NKP Berkshires, I've read many of the books, but the books tend to be a history of what happened with the rising maintenance costs of steam power, and I do not recall ever seeing "accurate" complete drawings of S-2 class versus S-3 class Berkshires to know what the differences were, but my now deceased friends said the PFM Model was merely a composite and not correct for any one class or locomotive at any date in time.
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Post by bmoore765 on Jun 19, 2024 7:24:06 GMT -8
I hope this model comes to fruition, but the goals seem rather lofty. CAD drawings are great but translating all those details to tooling and a smooth running, reliable mechanism is a big leap. I've spent some time on the NKP 765 crew and this locomotive is near and dear to my heart. I have several HO examples from Rivarossi, Proto2000, Bachmann and MTH and every one is a shelf queen. They either run poorly or the details just aren't there. As other's have alluded to, I'm not sure there has ever actually been an S-2 produced outside of brass. Most are a conglomeration of S-1, S-2 and S-3 resulting in a generic Van Sweringen 2-8-4. I'm not getting too excited until I see pics and videos of a running prototype model, but I will be following this closely.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 19, 2024 8:34:58 GMT -8
My lone example of an NKP Berkshire is also a shelf queen, and not too well detailed: ![](https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.d91e498a1a4e5def19fad4c499055a2e?rik=zVS69TZi67nnOg&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.oldmodelkits.com%2fjpegs%2fh%2fHobbyline+KL-3-295+Berkshire.JPG&ehk=BUxscyS8SOtTWLQB7%2bdYQ4HzKCMJwmBogCzT0cvPcdo%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0) $1.98 when I bought it. Goes for a bit higher these days on Ebay. Ed
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Jun 20, 2024 0:16:56 GMT -8
My lone example of an NKP Berkshire is also a shelf queen, and not too well detailed: $1.98 when I bought it. Goes for a bit higher these days on Ebay. Ed Image wasn't showing up for me. Try this link instead: ![https://www.oldmodelkits.com/jpegs/h/Hobbyline%20KL-3-295%20Berkshire.JPG](https://www.oldmodelkits.com/jpegs/h/Hobbyline%20KL-3-295%20Berkshire.JPG)
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Post by es80ac on Jul 6, 2024 17:23:03 GMT -8
Disappointing to see the new company also use a traction tire on the Berkshire. One of the thing that annoys me the most is the traction tires in the steam engines and the manufacturers do not even include a replacement metal wheel。
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 6, 2024 17:27:46 GMT -8
Disappointing to see the new company also use a traction tire on the Berkshire. One of the thing that annoys me the most is the traction tires in the steam engines and the manufacturers do not even include a replacement metal wheel。 Some do. Those are the ones that I consider buying. No extra drive = no sale. Ed
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Post by prr 4467 on Jul 6, 2024 18:57:10 GMT -8
BLI included the extra driver in the box with new locos for a number of years.
One can also contact them and get the same extra plain-metal-tired driver even now. It may cost $10 or so, but it isn't much. I have purchased and installed the replacement axle myself. Not always my favorite task because one doesn't want to lose axle bearing springs, so it is advisable to lift the drive axle out very carefully (on those locos that have the springs).
Also, having removed the traction-tire-equipped drive axle and then having operated the locos, some steam engines just do not pull so well without the traction tire.
Modelers today want all the electronic features and sound in their locos. The simple fact is that those electronics take space away that was formerly used for additional weight in past years. Sometimes it is not possible to have both without some creative ingenuity.
John
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Post by bmoore765 on Jul 19, 2024 5:30:17 GMT -8
I agree that a replacement non-traction tire driver set should be included in the box. If nothing else, that's so when I'm long gone and my grandkids want to run my old trains (wishful thinking) the engine won't be deemed junk just because of a couple rubber bands that disintegrated over time.
Now having said that, I don't immediately rule out traction tires anymore. I remember the days of an obvious wobble, black residue left on the rails, and failure in short order especially when exposed to any oil. Today's traction tires we are seeing on quality steam don't exhibit those characteristics and perform extremely well.
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