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Post by lvrr325 on Sept 5, 2024 9:13:58 GMT -8
Got an email from Bachmann today announcing the "new" HO Dash 8-40CW. I know this is warmed over 30 year old tooling, because when they were the only game in town I bought one with the idea of changing the number to represent one I rode in Sayre, PA and had a picture published in Railpace.
Where it is I don't know, but in their ad they tout it having roadname specific cab configurations - high headlight, nose headlight, and Santa Fe "gull wing" cab. I don't recall if they had this back then. They also have added functional ditch lights. The rest of the detail I think they always had - separate grabs, brake hoses, MU cables, uncoupling levers, wipers, mirrors plus the stack and horn.
I am suspecting an entirely new drive as they also tout a detailed cab interior with crew figures, and "see through trucks with detailed sideframes and separately applied piping detail" - which could be new, or same old. IIRC some of them had a metal brake pipe added on top of the sideframe. I could be thinking of their SD45 though. After all this time the details run together in my brain. What I don't remember is them having the room for a cab interior.
All this can be yours for only $459.00 list. Which translates to maybe $280-$300 street. I think I'll wait for an Atlas one.
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Post by cpr4200 on Sept 5, 2024 12:17:15 GMT -8
Prices are just getting insane. Seems that Rapido's little beauties are cheaper than the "new" old-tooling Bachmann 44-tonners. Nice to see.
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Post by wagnersteve on Sept 5, 2024 12:38:40 GMT -8
9/5/24, starting 4:35 p.m., EDT
Last week I wrote up Bachmann's recent introduction of HO cars carrying spare wheelsets as part of my "Modeling Matters" submission for possible use in the October Bridge Line Historical Society Bulletin, giving the firm some credit for following the example of Tangent Scale Models' much more authentic and better detailed models of that kind. I'll probably submit something for our November issue citing this thread.
Remember, as a Bachmann employee on this forum has written, that Bachmann sets its list prices high, giving distributors and dealers enough of a discount so that they can charge less. I advise readers never to pay full list price for a Bachmann product if they can avoid doing so.
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Post by NS4122 on Sept 5, 2024 13:38:35 GMT -8
The original Bachmann 8-40CWs had 3 different cabs; high headlight, low headlight, and gullwing. If I recall correctly, they had crew figures plugged into the metal frame. I had a few of them and, with one exception, they all suffered seized motors
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Post by cpr4200 on Sept 5, 2024 14:02:06 GMT -8
Manufacturers sell to distributors at a discount and they sell to the retailers at a discount and they sell the models to the end users at less of a discount. Usually it's about 40% off to distributors and they'll sell to dealers at about 20% off retail. The dealer can decide to make all 20% on a sale or less if they choose. At least that's how it was when I was in the business in the 80's. Pretty much the same in all retail situations. Bigger discounts based on volume can apply to big distributors and dealers.
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Post by lvrr325 on Sept 5, 2024 17:02:45 GMT -8
Manufacturers sell to distributors at a discount and they sell to the retailers at a discount and they sell the models to the end users at less of a discount. Usually it's about 40% off to distributors and they'll sell to dealers at about 20% off retail. The dealer can decide to make all 20% on a sale or less if they choose. At least that's how it was when I was in the business in the 80's. Pretty much the same in all retail situations. Bigger discounts based on volume can apply to big distributors and dealers. Bachmann used to have a bigger discount but right now it's the same as Atlas and a number of other brands. Because of the big discount houses, the margin is more like 10%. So you can choose between the Bachmann at $459 which might street for $280-$300, or the upcoming Atlas which lists for $329 and will likely street for $225. Don't want sound, chop another $75 off. Not even an option at Bachmann. This is just about as heads up a comparison as there is - both are dated tooling (2003 for Atlas, 1996? for Bachmann) with recent updates and improvements, some road specific details, a fair level of standard details included, heck both even have a crappy plastic coupler. The only big difference is one has a TCS decoder and the other an ESU. I really don't understand why Bachmann thinks theirs is worth $130 more to start when it probably should be closer to $100 less. I think Bachmann as part of Kader owns their own factory and doesn't need to contract the production out so there's one less middleman in the works. But I could be wrong. About the only big difference is Atlas will be made to preorder and probably won't show up until 2026. Bachmann will probably be readily available for several months whenever they turn up. All I know is if I wanted one for me, I'd wait for the Atlas, I would tell a potential customer the same. I will occasionally stock a Bachmann if the closeout price is a smoking deal or it's one of their better pieces, but I find they are a tough sell because only people new to the hobby will consider them. Most experienced modelers see Bachmann as the same junk it historically was. And with the gears that split and other issues, a lot of it still is. The only Atlas engines I've ever seen with issues were some club engines that logged thousands of hours of run time and the motor brushes were worn out. It's almost like they've decided their primary competitor is Broadway Limited and not everyone else. |
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Post by cpr4200 on Sept 5, 2024 17:34:22 GMT -8
If Bachmann has cut out a middleman (contract factory) you'd think their costs would be somewhat less and they'd compete on price. I think the only Bachmann engine I have is a New Haven EF-4, and I have a couple of their nice NYC express reefers.
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Post by hudsonyard on Sept 5, 2024 18:55:10 GMT -8
I had one of those dash-8s from the original run as a kid, one of those in conrail with a dummy BB dash-9 trailing, looked enough like the river line in newburgh, NY near my aunts house to nine year old me.
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Post by cemr5396 on Sept 6, 2024 6:53:03 GMT -8
They are going to have to adapt or be left behind. That's the direction the hobby is going now.
There is a young kid at my model RR club, he started off with older Kato and Walthers Mainline locos and cheap, old freight cars, but quickly moved on to higher end stuff like WalthersProto and Genesis.
I am still pretty much 100% sure the Atlas Dash 8 will remain the much nicer model. I've seen Bachmann Dash 8s in person before and whatever level of detail aside, something about them just looked very off to me. If they haven't done any major retooling all of these 'upgrades' are basically just polishing a turd.
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Post by tony on Sept 6, 2024 16:25:42 GMT -8
When I shop, it's online. Online I always filter out Bachmann. Never been disappointed with my purchases.
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Post by tony on Sept 6, 2024 16:39:05 GMT -8
Prices are just getting insane. Seems that Rapido's little beauties are cheaper than the "new" old-tooling Bachmann 44-tonners. Nice to see. Just remember what the "experts" and "masters" have said for 10 years - you cannot get it made cheaper than in China CCP. Well, what about a USA super factory that puts the "newcomers" to work - because as my local Dem rep said, you can workers as young as 9 and train them to do whatever you need. |
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Post by Baikal on Sept 7, 2024 7:24:17 GMT -8
Prices are just getting insane. Seems that Rapido's little beauties are cheaper than the "new" old-tooling Bachmann 44-tonners. Nice to see. Just remember what the "experts" and "masters" have said for 10 years - you cannot get it made cheaper than in China CCP. Well, what about a USA super factory that puts the "newcomers" to work - because as my local Dem rep said, you can workers as young as 9 and train them to do whatever you need.
LOL good luck with that. American kids have xbox and lots of gibs & drugs. Work is for suckers. US industrial base and workers was sold out by big corporation/managerial class, it's never coming back. Plus average US IQ is now down to about 96 compaerd to China's 106.
The name of the country is People's Republic of China, no need for CCP(sic). CCP is fake American propaganda. USofA has to change the name of everything as to "own" it. It's known everwhere else by the real name, Chinese Communist Party, CPC.
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Post by prr 4467 on Sept 7, 2024 9:23:28 GMT -8
I cannot speak firsthand of China's salary statistics for factory workers.
However, in India, an India-educated (ie not in the US) "engineer" using that term VERY loosely as I've personally had to train them here, which was a total monumental disaster as their best and brightest engineers are below our entry-level drafters right out of some 2 year or less cadd school, makes about $3 per hour. A project manager may, if he or she is a "good" one, make $4 an hour.
The best and brightest Indian "engineers", the top 4% or so, are sent over here to the US for training. Here they were billed out to PennDOT at $25/hour as engineering technicians (basically traditional drafters). (Company must bill PennDOT the exact hourly wage rate by law on the invoice). They go home after 1 year here and are able to buy a new house with the money they make here.
American companies are EAGER to hire these Indian workers because they can pay them a lot less than Americans. They go back to India and make the same $4 US per hour, there. BUT the big American companies see this as an opportunity to make a cash killing by diverting American engineering work over there to India.
They are not subject to the same educational standards as here, at least definitely NOT in civil engineering. I can't speak for the other engineering disciplines.
The challenge is that to complete an American civil engineering project, for a public client, a US licensed professional engineer must sign and seal the plans and be legally responsible for those plans. I do not know one single PE who will sign off on work done half a world away, that is not under their "direct" supervision (state law and also accepted ethics of the profession), but that day IS coming depending upon how liberally one chooses to interpret "direct" supervision (via Teams, or some other platform).
It's not happening very much in civil engineering, but IS happening in other branches of engineering--our jobs leaving for India and China and elsewhere. The company I used to work for when training these foreign engineers, has now TWICE been either convicted or pled guilty to international fraud for bribing Indian officials. The first fine was in the 10's of millions of dollars; not sure what the most recent penalty is going to be. Not a good look for the ethics of the Engineering profession. (Sadly a $30 million dollar fine is chump change to a big American 5000+ worker engineering firm).
How does all of this relate to model trains you might ask???
IF an engineering graduate project manager is only worth $4 per hour overseas, what do you think they pay those average factory workers who assemble model trains?
In the US, I've said it before and I'll say it again (and Lee English of Bowser is basically in agreement with me on this) that the kind of employee who is capable of doing a good job on model assembly to the quality most of us expect nowaday (there can be easily 500 parts in a Bowser diesel) is also easily capable of getting a job in the oil and gas industry for the same or even better money than what Lee could offer. IF Bowser were to make their locos here in the US, the MSRP would not be the $300+ something that it currently is, it would be over $1000, very easily. The $1000 is now a few years out of date.
We are probably talking in the neighborhood of 20 hours of time to cast, drill, otherwise make and assemble the average HO diesel, PLUS all the marketing costs on top of that, plus overhead and profit at however many supply chain steps there are.
There is practically speaking NO WAY that HO plastic diesel assembly is coming back to the US. Not gonna happen, and definitely not with $15/hour minimum wages in some areas. Even if you could pay that, the environmental laws in the US make it difficult to manufacture these little toys here. When it WAS done here by Bowser and others, there were environmental hoops and extra costs involved in the process that make the cost of manufacturing here, when your competition is NOT, prohibitive.
John
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Post by cera2254 on Sept 7, 2024 9:33:51 GMT -8
Just remember what the "experts" and "masters" have said for 10 years - you cannot get it made cheaper than in China CCP. Well, what about a USA super factory that puts the "newcomers" to work - because as my local Dem rep said, you can workers as young as 9 and train them to do whatever you need.
LOL good luck with that. American kids have xbox and lots of gibs & drugs. Work is for suckers. US industrial base and workers was sold out by big corporation/managerial class, it's never coming back. Plus average US IQ is now down to about 96 compaerd to China's 106.
The name of the country is People's Republic of China, no need for CCP(sic). CCP is fake American propaganda. USofA has to change the name of everything as to "own" it. It's known everwhere else by the real name, Chinese Communist Party, CPC.
? So Chinese communist party is propaganda but Chinese communist party is the real name? The real name is the Communist Party of China. I guess I don’t see how a name with basically the same words that means the same thing is “American propaganda” but okay. |
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Post by Baikal on Sept 7, 2024 10:04:43 GMT -8
LOL good luck with that. American kids have xbox and lots of gibs & drugs. Work is for suckers. US industrial base and workers was sold out by big corporation/managerial class, it's never coming back. Plus average US IQ is now down to about 96 compaerd to China's 106.
The name of the country is People's Republic of China, no need for CCP(sic). CCP is fake American propaganda. USofA has to change the name of everything as to "own" it. It's known everwhere else by the real name, Chinese Communist Party, CPC.
? So Chinese communist party is propaganda but Chinese communist party is the real name? The real name is the Communist Party of China. I guess I don’t see how a name with basically the same words that means the same thing is “American propaganda” but okay.
You must be ok with "Line Coast Seaboard" or "Northern Burlington" then.
It's not Chinese propaganda because it's the real name of a real thing. Names mean things.
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Post by Baikal on Sept 7, 2024 10:19:50 GMT -8
I cannot speak firsthand of China's salary statistics for factory workers. However, in India, an India-educated (ie not in the US) "engineer" using that term VERY loosely as I've personally had to train them here, which was a total monumental disaster as their best and brightest engineers are below our entry-level drafters right out of some 2 year or less cadd school, makes about $3 per hour. A project manager may, if he or she is a "good" one, make $4 an hour. The best and brightest Indian "engineers", the top 4% or so, are sent over here to the US for training. Here they were billed out to PennDOT at $25/hour as engineering technicians (basically traditional drafters). (Company must bill PennDOT the exact hourly wage rate by law on the invoice). They go home after 1 year here and are able to buy a new house with the money they make here. American companies are EAGER to hire these Indian workers because they can pay them a lot less than Americans. They go back to India and make the same $4 US per hour, there. BUT the big American companies see this as an opportunity to make a cash killing by diverting American engineering work over there to India. They are not subject to the same educational standards as here, at least definitely NOT in civil engineering. I can't speak for the other engineering disciplines. The challenge is that to complete an American civil engineering project, for a public client, a US licensed professional engineer must sign and seal the plans and be legally responsible for those plans. I do not know one single PE who will sign off on work done half a world away, that is not under their "direct" supervision (state law and also accepted ethics of the profession), but that day IS coming depending upon how liberally one chooses to interpret "direct" supervision (via Teams, or some other platform). John
Same with the medical field. Everything is for sale to the lowest bidder. Borders are meaningless to some, short-term profits and keeping wages down mean everything. The goal seems to be to make most people mere consumers of junk GMO foods and 24/7 crap media.
First it was blue-collar jobs that got outsourced. Now were in the middle of losing white-collar (like engineering) jobs. Next up is management (just starting to go) then executive-level then government itself will be off-shored.
I'd love to see manufacturing come back to the US, including model trains. But it won't happen without major changes.
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Post by cera2254 on Sept 7, 2024 11:29:57 GMT -8
Again, how is that American propaganda though? That’s just a different description and to anyone it means the same thing, unlike the examples you gave. Saying CCP isn’t a name, it’s an abbreviation for the description, which is the communist party in china. Another example might be: the railroad that owned the racetrack vs saying the BN, one is a name and one is a description. I’m still not sure how any of this is propaganda though, as if describing them as the CCP is glorifying America and downplaying China in someway, again I don’t think the statement makes any sense and is just hyperbole.
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Post by snootie3257 on Sept 7, 2024 11:47:13 GMT -8
Take this argument somewhere else girls.
Steve
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Post by alexandrianick on Sept 7, 2024 11:51:34 GMT -8
I have exactly one person ignored across the dozens of message boards and forums I participate in. Yes, that's relevant to the thread.
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Post by sd80mac on Sept 9, 2024 6:15:26 GMT -8
On the subject of the Bachmann C40-8Ws, they have always reminded me of the old fat body Athearn blue boxes. The nose is too short in height and too long in length, and the front windows are too tall. Looks like it was carved out of a bar of soap by a guy who saw a C40-8W once or twice 10 years ago. They are crude but they were the only game in town for widenose Dash 8s for quite a while until Atlas finally released theirs.
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Post by lvrr325 on Sept 9, 2024 8:09:06 GMT -8
This thread derailed like someone tried to run a Big Boy up an interurban branch line.
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Post by Funnelfan on Sept 14, 2024 9:20:53 GMT -8
Is Bachmann trying to price themselves out of the market? I just purchased a brand new Atlas C40-8 DC-Sound Ready for $134. And that is a superior model to the Bachmann's older tooling.
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Post by cera2254 on Sept 14, 2024 13:39:53 GMT -8
Just for comparisons sake, the newest Atlas release retails for $329.95. A $500 MSRP to allow them to wholesale is a silly notion.
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Post by bnsf971 on Sept 14, 2024 14:55:58 GMT -8
The original Bachmann 8-40CWs had 3 different cabs; high headlight, low headlight, and gullwing. If I recall correctly, they had crew figures plugged into the metal frame. I had a few of them and, with one exception, they all suffered seized motors And the one that didn't have a seized motor had cracked gears? |
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Post by NS4122 on Sept 14, 2024 15:08:43 GMT -8
It was fine the last time I ran it almost 20 years ago The original Bachmann 8-40CWs had 3 different cabs; high headlight, low headlight, and gullwing. If I recall correctly, they had crew figures plugged into the metal frame. I had a few of them and, with one exception, they all suffered seized motors And the one that didn't have a seized motor had cracked gears? |
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Post by lvrr325 on Sept 14, 2024 19:53:55 GMT -8
Of course after I posted this, they post new roadnames on their GP38-2. Including Conrail OLS 7889. Which was a GP38.
But Athearn did that too - in the blue box era, I think an SE set. Some guys don't care.
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Post by rockfan on Sept 14, 2024 20:11:13 GMT -8
Bachmann making anything that doesn't belong under the Christmas tree and will fall apart in five years?
Gotta see it to believe it.
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Post by Mr. Trainiac on Sept 14, 2024 20:35:57 GMT -8
Bachmann making anything that doesn't belong under the Christmas tree and will fall apart in five years? Gotta see it to believe it. Their Siemens Charger is a top-teir model. A lot of their steam locomotives are pretty competitive too. Even if some of the Spectrum models are starting to show their age, there are some great models in that line. Bachmann does unusual models well, but I think they are lacking when it comes to basic diesels and freight cars. The Dash 8 tooling is from the 90's, and most of their EMD models look very plain and simple. I don't think it's a lack of talent though. Models like the HHP-8 and the Charger show they can make exciting and detailed products if they try. I think it's just because they want to serve the beginner and budget market with most of their products. Why compete with Genesis and Scaletrains when you can put your effort toward other products like the Acela or On30 models? |
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Post by jonklein611 on Sept 16, 2024 5:13:58 GMT -8
Bachmann making anything that doesn't belong under the Christmas tree and will fall apart in five years? Gotta see it to believe it. Their modern passenger stuff is really well done (ACS, Venture, Schnabel, UltraDomes, etc). |
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Post by sd80mac on Sept 16, 2024 10:33:53 GMT -8
Bachmann making anything that doesn't belong under the Christmas tree and will fall apart in five years? Gotta see it to believe it. Believe it. Their Siemens Charger is damn near the nicest plastic HO diesel ever produced. |
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