Traction tires on steam locomotives

[locochris]

I'm curious what people think about traction tires on steam locomotives. Necessary or not? Has anyone been able to get Athearn to cough up a driver set without traction tires? I know BLI will, for a cost.

[prr 4467]

I have replaced the traction-tire-equipped driver on BLI steam locos.

Unless the loco has a heavy diecast boiler, it appears the traction tires are needed. Once the tires are removed, the engines have issues with slipping and are not able to pull as much as some people would want or expect.

The upside is that (once the crappy early Paragon 3 decoders and early Paragon 3 motors are completely replaced with the upgraded late Paragon 3 versions) a diecast BLI traction-tire-equipped UP 4-6-6-4 will easily pull 80 cars on relatively flat grades of 0.5% and less.

Even with traction tires on them, the BLI brass hybrid steam locomotives just do not pull as well as the much heavier diecast Y-6B and UP articulateds.  IF you run wet rail--ie maybe use electrically conductive lubricant to keep track clean--and/or even after commercially available track cleaning products are used--the brass hybrids may slip with what otherwise would be only moderate train lengths (15 freight cars).  Although the brass hybrid Texas & Pacific/Southern/Freedom Train 2-10-4 looks simply fantastic and runs very well indeed, they definitely need the traction tires.  

With dry rails, and track that was not recently cleaned, I have gotten up to 25 car trains on nearly level track with a BLI brass hybrid.  However, that is not as good as say a diecast Y-6B or the diecast Challenger, both of which can do much better than 25 cars.

[edwardsutorik]

At a very young age, I discovered traction tires to be sloppy and generate wobble on a locomotive. This biased me against them. They made the engine look cheap and stupid when it moved.

PERHAPS traction tire technology has since then advanced enough to actually have a constant diameter at all locations. Forever. Not just for the first six months. And that problem has been eliminated. Perhaps. If I have a traction tired engine, it's still in its box, undiscovered.

My first brass engine, a Tenshodo GN 4-8-4 could/can put 50 cars. Without traction tires. My Tenshodo GN 2-8-8-2 can do the same. Without traction tires. If you want to pull "long" trains, you need either traction tires or weight.

And. As I said, I got traumatized by traction tires in my youth. Or yute, depending.

I'll note that not too many HO diesels have traction tires anymore. My old Mantua "F9" did. Kinda weird that HO steam apparently has them, but HO diesels don't.


Ed

[crblue]

I love traction tires. It means my plucky 2-8-0 can outpull just about everything else I own, BLI steam excluded.

[edwardsutorik]

I then think the way to go is to have ALL traction tired drivers. Pickup is through the tender (which will still be equal to a diesel), and keep alive solves any potential poor pickup problem.


Ed

[Mr. Trainiac]

I see traction tires as equivalent to rubber band drives. Over time the rubber gets hard and brittle, then you need to get new traction tires. I'd rather not have disposable elements in my model. Who knows whether spares will be available in 30 years from now?

If diesels don't need traction tires, neither do steam locomotives. Manufacturers just need to get better and use more diecast or brass parts to add weight.

[crblue]

Sept 24, 2024 16:55:56 GMT -8 Mr. Trainiac said:

I see traction tires as equivalent to rubber band drives. Over time the rubber gets hard and brittle, then you need to get new traction tires. I'd rather not have disposable elements in my model. Who knows whether spares will be available in 30 years from now?

If diesels don't need traction tires, neither do steam locomotives. Manufacturers just need to get better and use more diecast or brass parts to add weight.

You can just buy after-market spares (just as you can buy new rubber bands).

lovetrainhobbies.com/HO-scale-traction-tires-locomotive-engine-replacements-steam-diesel-HO-scale-traction-tires-lovetrain-hobbies-mm-HO-MAIN.html

[prr 4467]

Ed and all--

I understand your concerns about the traction tires. BLI does include a new set of them with each engine and as long as sealed in the bag they do not dry rot (as some Paragon 2 loco tires I have seen on the locos do develop some cracks--but they still work well).

Also, you cannot put a tire on a driver that does NOT already have a slot for it. It will not last but will come off quickly.  I have tried it myself and cannot recommend doing it.

One other thing that can be done is to replace any failed tires with "Bullfrog Snot". I assume it's still available out there. I have tried it, and it definitely works (I used it on a Bachmann steamer that had a tire failure).  It is easily applied and can be cleaned up with water while wet.  If I can do it, anybody can.

Ed please take note--How do you know that the wobbling you see in some steam loco drive wheels is the fault of having a tire riding in a properly slotted wheel? Even MTH's final DM&IR Yellowstone 2-8-8-4's, which were not cheap and were supposedly an elite model, do have noticeably wobbly wheels. It is the way that the axles were assembled at the factory--most of the wheels are not square on the axle and it has nothing to do with the tires on those.  All the wheels wobble.

Another course of action would be to buy the replacement drivers from BLI and just keep them on hand for when a tire might fail. Their more recent tires appear to be of much better quality than some other guys.  Almost look to be a type of vinyl.

Regarding tire failures, I had a Mantua 0-6-0 and also a 4-4-0 that my dad built from kits when I was a kid. I ran those locos hard--brass was clearly showing on the drivers--BUT in over 35 years of life the tires never once failed. They may have had a few little cracks in them but not enough so as to go all the way through. The engines ran fine after 25 years of sitting in my parents' coal dust filled basement.

Do I wish the BLI Bull Moose 2-8-8-0 would come without traction tires? Of course, but that won't keep me from buying the locos. The Overland Models versions can have their own issues--serious and hard to pin down electrical shorts. Two BLI 2-8-8-0's will cost less at full retail (nobody pays that right?) than one of the Overland/Ajin locos cost back in the day. I'll take my chances with the BLI!

As always, your mileage may vary.  My comments are basically "this is what I have seen happen".  I do not expect you all to think or do the same as me.

[es80ac]

Traction tires simply sucks in my view. One attraction of the locomotives, especially steam is seeing the drivers sometimes slip. The fact that BLI do not include non-traction tired wheels in their products and you have pay extra to buy them (sometimes not even available) completely turned me off to their offerings.

[prr 4467]

Sept 26, 2024 9:37:39 GMT -8 es80ac said:

Traction tires simply sucks in my view. One attraction of the locomotives, especially steam is seeing the drivers sometimes slip. The fact that BLI do not include non-traction tired wheels in their products and you have pay extra to buy them (sometimes not even available) completely turned me off to their offerings.

So...IF you want a steam loco, what loco made by whom do you actually buy?

AND

Btw, if you really don't like traction tires it IS possible to just remove them and run the loco without them.  I have done that too, or rather simply not replaced a traction tire (that was in large scale where the forces on the loco drivetrain are much much greater than in HO and it's easier to have a mishap that chews up a tire since we used real limestone ballast outside).  Running a loco without traction tires will result in some wear over time to the slot that would normally hold a tire, but the loco will in fact run just fine. 

If I understand correctly, you are going to not buy a loco over a $10 plain driver set that generally IS obtainable (from BLI)?

Regarding wheel slip, BLI actually builds the occasional wheel slip into the sound files on the most recent locos.   They will randomly have a non-synchronized chuff but won't do the spinning that some real locos did.  BLI's instructions say the random offbeat chuff is prototypically correct as locos commonly would slip for just a split second.

If you want drivers to actually slip, did you buy the W&R/Samhongsa delayed motion articulated gearbox sets (for about $80/set when they were available) and install them in your articulated steamers?

I actually sent a question to BLI about this today, but they already are stating the new 2-8-8-0 will have traction tires.  I indicated there are people on these forums having serious concerns about them.  We'll see what they say.

John

[locochris]

I contacted Athearn to get a set of drivers without traction tires for the UP FEF3 and was told they don't offer them anymore.

[bmoore765]

I think a lot of us were turned off by the old traction tires used 20+ years ago. They would wear out, cause noticeable wobbling, would start disintegrating with oil contact, etc. The tires used today are vastly improved and I've grown to like them. Having said that, I do feel like a non-traction tire driver set should always be included. The tires are a wear item and at some point in the future will fail. Who knows how hard it will be to find replacements at that point. I like the insurance of knowing that a simple wheel swap will keep the engine running albeit with less pulling power.

[es80ac]

I bought from BLI, Athearn, Bachmann and MTH. Despite what everyone hates about MTH, they do include replacement drivers and you have a choice. BLI decided to shove traction tires down everyone’s throats and not include one. i need to go to the trouble of call them and pay additional for a spare driver and that may not even be available after I already spent 500 on one of their products? Traction tires carries dirt and grime’s everywhere and yes they do wear out. I don’t want a $500 crippled engine in a few years.

I raised the issue to BLI a while ago, I guess they could care less. Anyways I have chosen to redirect majority of purchasing dollars elsewhere because of this

Sept 26, 2024 13:52:24 GMT -8 prr 4467 said:

Sept 26, 2024 9:37:39 GMT -8 es80ac said:

Traction tires simply sucks in my view. One attraction of the locomotives, especially steam is seeing the drivers sometimes slip. The fact that BLI do not include non-traction tired wheels in their products and you have pay extra to buy them (sometimes not even available) completely turned me off to their offerings.

So...IF you want a steam loco, what loco made by whom do you actually buy?

AND

Btw, if you really don't like traction tires it IS possible to just remove them and run the loco without them.  I have done that too, or rather simply not replaced a traction tire (that was in large scale where the forces on the loco drivetrain are much much greater than in HO and it's easier to have a mishap that chews up a tire since we used real limestone ballast outside).  Running a loco without traction tires will result in some wear over time to the slot that would normally hold a tire, but the loco will in fact run just fine. 

If I understand correctly, you are going to not buy a loco over a $10 plain driver set that generally IS obtainable (from BLI)?

Regarding wheel slip, BLI actually builds the occasional wheel slip into the sound files on the most recent locos.   They will randomly have a non-synchronized chuff but won't do the spinning that some real locos did.  BLI's instructions say the random offbeat chuff is prototypically correct as locos commonly would slip for just a split second.

If you want drivers to actually slip, did you buy the W&R/Samhongsa delayed motion articulated gearbox sets (for about $80/set when they were available) and install them in your articulated steamers?

I actually sent a question to BLI about this today, but they already are stating the new 2-8-8-0 will have traction tires.  I indicated there are people on these forums having serious concerns about them.  We'll see what they say.

John

[selector]

I have yet to experience a traction tire failure across my locomotives that have them, all from BLI and one from Rivarossi (the 2006 LokSound-equipped new release H-8 Allegheny at the time, the first time they offered DCC/sound) Some have discernible cracks, but none has let go. I put hefty loads behind the 'big steam' locomotives, too.

I fully understand the feelings the old-timers in the hobby have about traction tires. They probably caused as much grief as they were intended to forestall. Nobody likes putting fairly new locomotives, always the most expensive things, and the most desired, on the RIP track. All I can say is that, in my 19 year experience in the hobby, and admittedly modest by comparison, the traction tires have stood up, and they have helped me to enjoy more realistic consists.

BTW, in case it might be something of interest to any steam fans out there, my two biggest pullers, by quite a margin, are two BLI engines, neither of which has a traction tire: the vaunted (original PCM version) Y6-b Mallet and, believe it-or-not, the original Paragon QSI T1 Duplex. Comparing it only to passenger steamers, that thing's a beast!