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Post by curtmc on Nov 26, 2013 19:45:30 GMT -8
James,
I agree. That is the problem I see with "exclusive" and "sole source" items like those. IMHO they use the "exclusive" or "sole source" basis for gouging their customers. With us taxpayers already subsidizing Amtrak so much with our tax dollars (whether we use the poor run and poor service operation or not) the cars should be about $20 each for the loyal Amtrak supporters.
But here's an idea... Perhaps Amtrak should do the special exclusive cars and present them to severely delayed customers... So the customer that shows up 12-36 hours late at their destination gets a model of the car they spent too much time in.
PS. James, Nice looking car that you modeled there...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2013 20:09:05 GMT -8
These cars are in stock and started shipping a few weeks ago as estimated. Anybody get one? I'd love to hear what you think about it. As a reminder, this is a very limited run and only available through Amtrak. They're a great gift idea for hard-to-buy-for Amtrak modelers. The prototype recently ran on the Adirondack and then Illinois Zephyr this fall. Thanks, AmtrakMatt of the Amtrak Exhibit Train Team At $101.27 shipped for one of those cars I think I'll pass. If there's ever a sale, let us know. I might buy one for a Youtube review. The price of the Amtrak car is $86.65 This price is higher than the Walthers Proto model of a Great Northern Great Dome lounge which has an MSRP of $79.98, which is basically the same model as the Amtrak car. The prototype Amtrak car is a former GN Great Dome lounge. The shipping of $15 to James(Jlwii2000) is more than what you'd expect to pay for a two pound package via USPS Priority Mail. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2013 20:17:43 GMT -8
James, I agree. That is the problem I see with "exclusive" and "sole source" items like those. IMHO they use the "exclusive" or "sole source" basis for gouging their customers. With us taxpayers already subsidizing Amtrak so much with our tax dollars (whether we use the poor run and poor service operation or not) the cars should be about $20 each for the loyal Amtrak supporters. But here's an idea... Perhaps Amtrak should do the special exclusive cars and present them to severely delayed customers... So the customer that shows up 12-36 hours late at their destination gets a model of the car they spent too much time in. PS. James, Nice looking car that you modeled there... Its only gouging if you are forced to pay their price. Seeing this is not food, gasoline, clothing or some other needed necessity then one doesn't have to have it. If you decide you MUST HAVE THIS toy train, then you shouldn't complain about the price. Now, I don't begrudge Amtrak for wanting to make a little coin on Amtrak foamers. I figure, its actual good business on Amtrak's part. They have created an exclusive product that they know their handful of faithful fans will be driven to buy, no matter what the price. If Amtrak is making nearly $40 over their cost for the models and people will still pay the high prices, Amtrak would be foolish not separate these people from their money. |
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Post by jlwii2000 on Nov 26, 2013 20:28:30 GMT -8
James, I agree. That is the problem I see with "exclusive" and "sole source" items like those. IMHO they use the "exclusive" or "sole source" basis for gouging their customers. With us taxpayers already subsidizing Amtrak so much with our tax dollars (whether we use the poor run and poor service operation or not) the cars should be about $20 each for the loyal Amtrak supporters. But here's an idea... Perhaps Amtrak should do the special exclusive cars and present them to severely delayed customers... So the customer that shows up 12-36 hours late at their destination gets a model of the car they spent too much time in. PS. James, Nice looking car that you modeled there... Its only gouging if you are forced to pay their price. Seeing this is not food, gasoline, clothing or some other needed necessity then one doesn't have to have it. If you decide you MUST HAVE THIS toy train, then you shouldn't complain about the price. Now, I don't begrudge Amtrak for wanting to make a little coin on Amtrak foamers. I figure, its actual good business on Amtrak's part. They have created an exclusive product that they know their handful of faithful fans will be driven to buy, no matter what the price. If Amtrak is making nearly $40 over their cost for the models and people will still pay the high prices, Amtrak would be foolish not separate these people from their money. Hey business is business, I'm not faulting Amtrak one bit for trying to make money and sell models partnered up with Walthers. I just said I'd personally pass at that price point. I could have probably kept that statement to myself and not shared it with the forum. As for my model, it was $30 shipped and basically the same as the current Amtrak offering minus tint, decals and installed grab irons. I spent about another $15-$20 to get it to look like it does. Now $50 for me to do it myself was more like it for me, which is why I did that. Here is the link to the Walthers dome car that I used for $30 www.modeltrainstuff.com/Walthers-HO-6526-Budd-Great-Dome-Amtrak-Phase-p/932-6526.htmI only added tinting and decals. That's it. Nothing against the Amtrak model, I just sprung for the do it yourself version for less than half the price and very little work. Oh well, wouldn't be the first time I've ticked off Amtrak (they tried to get me to take down my youtube review of the HO scale P42 heritage unit models) or Walthers. Curt, Thanks for the comments on my model. I am happy with the way it turned out. |
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Post by jlwii2000 on Nov 30, 2013 11:31:40 GMT -8
Cricket....cricket...I guess no one else has an opinion about this dome car? Has anyone bought one? I am showing the Amtrak store website has only sold one in the past 10 days. Are these models going to sell? They have 158 in stock, at this rate they'll take over 5 years to sell out.
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Post by riogrande on Nov 30, 2013 11:43:30 GMT -8
Chirp Chirp ...
It's a nice looking car. Is the black dome a modern version? I am more of an anachronistic person and don't buy modern stuff, but am stuck in the 70's and 80's. The only way I'd probably get one is if Athearn offers a Genesis SDP40F set and I have to model a San Francisco Zephyr which only detoured over the Rockies a few times, but I could be tempted under those circumstances to get a version used back in the 70's before the Superliner cars took over.
As for selling, if they don't sell, I imagine Amtrak will eventually have to put them "on sale" or "on offer" as my wife would say to move them out.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2013 12:23:42 GMT -8
Chirp Chirp ... It's a nice looking car. Is the black dome a modern version? I am more of an anachronistic person and don't buy modern stuff, but am stuck in the 70's and 80's. The only way I'd probably get one is if Athearn offers a Genesis SDP40F set and I have to model a San Francisco Zephyr which only detoured over the Rockies a few times, but I could be tempted under those circumstances to get a version used back in the 70's before the Superliner cars took over. As for selling, if they don't sell, I imagine Amtrak will eventually have to put them "on sale" or "on offer" as my wife would say to move them out. It is model of the car as it appears today. So yes, it is ultra modern. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2013 12:31:23 GMT -8
Cricket....cricket...I guess no one else has an opinion about this dome car? Has anyone else bought one? I am showing the Amtrak store website has only sold one in the past 10 days. Are these models going to sell? They have 158 in stock, at this rate they'll take over 5 years to sell out. At $100+ for one unlit passenger car, its a little steep. I'll hazard a guess that the reason the 40th anniversary P42's sold quickly was because they were special. I'll also bet you dollar that some or possibly many people are sitting on the P42's in hopes of cashing in big sometime in the future. There is absolutely NOTHING that special about this car, when compared to the anniversary locomotives. A foot note to this model is Walthers has been promoting this car HEAVILY on its site for a couple of months with links to Amtrak's store. If they have sold all of one in ten days even with the Walthers assistance, it may be a while for this to sell. |
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Post by riogrande on Nov 30, 2013 12:40:33 GMT -8
It is model of the car as it appears today. So yes, it is ultra modern. I have never seen a full dome with the dome section painted black so I assumed it was going for the modern crowd - which I am not. Buying trains to speculate is a dodgy and risky business at best. I remember people saying that about the Hallmark Star Trek ornaments - the 1991 Enterprise sold for $20 originally and there was indeed a period where you could sell them for $200 - not a bad mark up. Then the bubble burst and they were selling for near original price. Anyway, good luck to the speculators ... I won't be help you any. |
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Post by jlwii2000 on Nov 30, 2013 13:03:52 GMT -8
It is model of the car as it appears today. So yes, it is ultra modern. I have never seen a full dome with the dome section painted black so I assumed it was going for the modern crowd - which I am not. Buying trains to speculate is a dodgy and risky business at best. I remember people saying that about the Hallmark Star Trek ornaments - the 1991 Enterprise sold for $20 originally and there was indeed a period where you could sell them for $200 - not a bad mark up. Then the bubble burst and they were selling for near original price. Anyway, good luck to the speculators ... I won't be help you any. Well the bubble is about to burst on the Athearn Amtrak Anniversary P42's. Especially since Kato announced their run. Even though Kato has a list of shortcomings in their model they offer DCC and sound so it adds to the market availability. Personally, I don't think it was smart business for Amtrak to offer those full dome cars. I didn't think they would be hot sellers and the numbers are backing up my assumption. If they really wanted to sell some they might mess with the in stock number and bring it down to a low number like 10. I have seen modelers inclined to buy something because it's in low stock or selling out. Although that stock number move would be shady, it might be effective. |
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Post by bdhicks on Nov 30, 2013 13:11:02 GMT -8
Even beyond the price (which is probably somewhat constrained by what Walthers is charging to produce them), there's going to be significantly less demand for the dome car than the heritage P42s just because the P42s get cycled around and can show up on any diesel-pulled train, but the dome car can't just get swapped in on any train and has to be run special.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2013 13:15:19 GMT -8
It is model of the car as it appears today. So yes, it is ultra modern. I have never seen a full dome with the dome section painted black so I assumed it was going for the modern crowd - which I am not. Amtrak has found the near black tint of the glass does a better job of keeping the dome from becoming an easy bake oven. Buying trains to speculate is a dodgy and risky business at best. I remember people saying that about the Hallmark Star Trek ornaments - the 1991 Enterprise sold for $20 originally and there was indeed a period where you could sell them for $200 - not a bad mark up. Then the bubble burst and they were selling for near original price. Anyway, good luck to the speculators ... I won't be help you any. You and both know that, but e-Bay, Lionel and other sources have people convinced that limited edition and old are "highly collectible". I love watching History Channel's "Pawn Stars" when someone walks in EXPECTING to "cash in"! Only to find their item is either worthless or far from the crazy price they THOUGHT it was worth. I'm pretty certain that there are some that are surely EXPECTING those anniversary P42's to be worth a King's ransom in the future. Other people may have bought just to collect the item and put it on a shelf. Then you have the actual Amtrak modeler that bought them and is using them. I remember when the anniversary P42's first started running and some custom painters cranked out a few using available decals, flipped them on e-Bay, and got over $300 for a stock Athearn P42 painted in the phase I anniversary scheme. Trust me, when I say that did not go unnoticed by people. |
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Post by snootnose406 on Nov 30, 2013 13:24:33 GMT -8
I would have rather seen a Pacific Parlour car myself, but I doubt those would be big sellers either  |
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Post by riogrande on Nov 30, 2013 13:35:01 GMT -8
Well the bubble is about to burst on the Athearn Amtrak Anniversary P42's. Especially since Kato announced their run. Even though Kato has a list of shortcomings in their model they offer DCC and sound so it adds to the market availability. Personally, I don't think it was smart business for Amtrak to offer those full dome cars. I didn't think they would be hot sellers and the numbers are backing up my assumption. If they really wanted to sell some they might mess with the in stock number and bring it down to a low number like 10. I have seen modelers inclined to buy something because it's in low stock or selling out. Although that stock number move would be shady, it might be effective. Since I can't afford everything and have to pace myself, sometimes I will buy things when stock is low and nearly out. Of course if these were to play with the numbers it would be fraud - not good. Anyway, I think Amtrak is targeting the general public rather than model railroaders like us, for the most part. People who ride the train and get a wild hair to buy the train they rode on. I was like that at one time in my 20's where I wanted to buy what I saw. Well, I'm still like that! I still want to buy what I saw, back in the 70's and 80's! =P Probably not. But it's all a gamble. When it comes to gambling I tend to run the other way. |
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Post by WP 257 on Nov 30, 2013 16:17:01 GMT -8
I didn't think they would be hot sellers and the numbers are backing up my assumption. If they really wanted to sell some they might mess with the in stock number and bring it down to a low number like 10. I have seen modelers inclined to buy something because it's in low stock or selling out. Although that stock number move would be shady, it might be effective. I know you post some comments just to be facetious, but I cannot believe you are seriously advocating the manufacturer should lie about the inventory quantity? That would be suicide. "Be sure your sins will find you out": Many years ago there was a train dealer whom Overland Models cut a deal with to blow out excess Overland Models inventory. This dealer was given a great deal on the brass models in question--well below what other dealers had purchased them for. The deal partly involved assurances that said brass dealer would not undercut the price point of all the other dealers who already had those items in inventory--for multiple reasons. Said brass dealer did what he wanted to do: He undercut everybody else's selling price, and destroyed the market value of the models (such that I doubt they've ever really recovered) all at the same time. Overland Models will not deal with him anymore, and I don't believe most of the other importers will either. His name is "Mudd" in the brass industry (as in Samuel Mudd, the doctor who aided John Wilkes Booth). He managed to survive for many years as a "junk" brass dealer ie you'd better look carefully at every previously-owned model he had, because he was often being dishonest in how he represented them (later more valuable version when they were not, etc). Hopefully Ebay has removed his ilk by now, as he was one of the guys who gave brass dealers a very bad name. I personally believe one of the things that attracts people to stores like M.B. Klein is their no-nonsense real-time honest inventory. No games, no bull, just good service... |
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Post by jlwii2000 on Nov 30, 2013 19:02:30 GMT -8
I didn't think they would be hot sellers and the numbers are backing up my assumption. If they really wanted to sell some they might mess with the in stock number and bring it down to a low number like 10. I have seen modelers inclined to buy something because it's in low stock or selling out. Although that stock number move would be shady, it might be effective. I know you post some comments just to be facetious, but I cannot believe you are seriously advocating the manufacturer should lie about the inventory quantity? That would be suicide. "Be sure your sins will find you out": Many years ago there was a train dealer whom Overland Models cut a deal with to blow out excess Overland Models inventory. This dealer was given a great deal on the brass models in question--well below what other dealers had purchased them for. The deal partly involved assurances that said brass dealer would not undercut the price point of all the other dealers who already had those items in inventory--for multiple reasons. Said brass dealer did what he wanted to do: He undercut everybody else's selling price, and destroyed the market value of the models (such that I doubt they've ever really recovered) all at the same time. Overland Models will not deal with him anymore, and I don't believe most of the other importers will either. His name is "Mudd" in the brass industry (as in Samuel Mudd, the doctor who aided John Wilkes Booth). He managed to survive for many years as a "junk" brass dealer ie you'd better look carefully at every previously-owned model he had, because he was often being dishonest in how he represented them (later more valuable version when they were not, etc). Hopefully Ebay has removed his ilk by now, as he was one of the guys who gave brass dealers a very bad name. I personally believe one of the things that attracts people to stores like M.B. Klein is their no-nonsense real-time honest inventory. No games, no bull, just good service... I was mostly kidding with the stock point. I would be interested in knowing who the junk brass dealer is. There are a few dealers I have bought brass from that I had to return because they lied or misled. I wouldn't be surprised if I had ran across him before. On a side note, with so many heritage P42s that will be floating around in the future I doubt they will ever be extremely collectible or have a high price. I look at the NS heritage units the same way. |
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Post by WP 257 on Nov 30, 2013 23:03:11 GMT -8
Oh--I'm not disputing the lack of collectability at all. You are most likely absolutely right. The Lionel pink girl's train is valuable because at the time nobody wanted it, so nobody bought them and the unsold units were destroyed (if I've heard correctly). If you've ever seen it, it has to be one of the ugliest toy trains you'll ever feast your eyes upon--lol.
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Post by NS4122 on Dec 1, 2013 6:42:04 GMT -8
Dude, Get off your soapbox and get over it. Amtrak commissioning a special run of something is no different than a hobby shop or historical society doing it. As far as gouging goes, you dudes also have to realize that Staples isn't running the Amtrak store for free... James, I agree. That is the problem I see with "exclusive" and "sole source" items like those. IMHO they use the "exclusive" or "sole source" basis for gouging their customers. With us taxpayers already subsidizing Amtrak so much with our tax dollars (whether we use the poor run and poor service operation or not) the cars should be about $20 each for the loyal Amtrak supporters. But here's an idea... Perhaps Amtrak should do the special exclusive cars and present them to severely delayed customers... So the customer that shows up 12-36 hours late at their destination gets a model of the car they spent too much time in. PS. James, Nice looking car that you modeled there... |
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Post by jlwii2000 on Dec 1, 2013 16:04:59 GMT -8
Well I'm sure staples charges a good amount. I personally have never questioned why the price is so high, I just merely stated for that price I won't buy it. I'm sure with all the overhead between Walthers, Amtrak and Staples the price can't be much cheaper. As an idea guy at Amtrak or Walthers I would have seen that price point and said there is no way modelers will buy this for the price. In comparison for $101.27 shipped you can get the next release of an AC4400 from Athearn from a few dealers. That's a Ready to Roll DCC quick plug equipped locomotive for the same price! Oh well, everyone makes mistakes. Maybe it won't even be a mistake, maybe sales will pick up.
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Post by WP 257 on Dec 1, 2013 16:35:40 GMT -8
Just because it's a special run doesn't mean Walthers is going to sell the cars to Amtrak at some incredible price point.
We live in an era of $60 autoracks now, with other cars fast approaching that price point.
If you look at the offerings of Yesteryear Models and other similar limited run organizations...well, $86 for a dome car with lights, tinted windows, etc. is actually reasonable, but that's merely my opinion...
I just ordered 4 Rapido Budd coaches at a $100 MSRP/each price point (my actual price will be less).
I think it's unfair or unreasonable to criticize Amtrak here based upon price. It looks like a nice product and I'd buy it if I were in that era. They have every bit as much right to be the sole source as any of the historical societies do with the Kadee boxcars they sell (at full MSRP).
I'm very sure that there are modelers out there who will buy the dome car.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2013 16:50:52 GMT -8
Just because it's a special run doesn't mean Walthers is going to sell the cars to Amtrak at some incredible price point. We live in an era of $60 autoracks now, with other cars fast approaching that price point. If you look at the offerings of Yesteryear Models and other similar limited run organizations...well, $86 for a dome car with lights, tinted windows, etc. is actually reasonable, but that's merely my opinion... I just ordered 4 Rapido Budd coaches at a $100 MSRP/each price point (my actual price will be less). I think it's unfair or unreasonable to criticize Amtrak here based upon price. It looks like a nice product and I'd buy it if I were in that era. They have every bit as much right to be the sole source as any of the historical societies do with the Kadee boxcars they sell (at full MSRP). I'm very sure that there are modelers out there who will buy the dome car. The Amtrak dome is not lighted. |
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Post by WP 257 on Dec 1, 2013 23:33:33 GMT -8
Oops, sorry for the mistake. Thank you for the correction!
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Post by jlwii2000 on Dec 2, 2013 6:40:35 GMT -8
Just because it's a special run doesn't mean Walthers is going to sell the cars to Amtrak at some incredible price point. We live in an era of $60 autoracks now, with other cars fast approaching that price point. If you look at the offerings of Yesteryear Models and other similar limited run organizations...well, $86 for a dome car with lights, tinted windows, etc. is actually reasonable, but that's merely my opinion... I just ordered 4 Rapido Budd coaches at a $100 MSRP/each price point (my actual price will be less). I think it's unfair or unreasonable to criticize Amtrak here based upon price. It looks like a nice product and I'd buy it if I were in that era. They have every bit as much right to be the sole source as any of the historical societies do with the Kadee boxcars they sell (at full MSRP). I'm very sure that there are modelers out there who will buy the dome car. I get what you're saying but I wouldn't compare Rapidos cars to this Amtrak car. As mentioned the Rapido car is lit but it's also extremely detailed inside and out with features such as etched glass on the interior and painted chairs, detailed armrests, etc. |
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Post by Gary P on Dec 2, 2013 7:20:43 GMT -8
Oh--I'm not disputing the lack of collectability at all. You are most likely absolutely right. The Lionel pink girl's train is valuable because at the time nobody wanted it, so nobody bought them and the unsold units were destroyed (if I've heard correctly). If you've ever seen it, it has to be one of the ugliest toy trains you'll ever feast your eyes upon--lol. The story I heard about the pink girl's train was similar, but just a little different. I heard that they did not sell well, and many of the remaining pieces of loco inventory were painted over into the conventional color black. I guess that could be considered 'destroyed'.... I did not hear what happened to the freight cars, if they were repainted or not...  |
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Post by WP 257 on Dec 2, 2013 8:06:15 GMT -8
Ok, fine, there's other Walthers passenger cars coming (10-5 sleepers due 12/28/13) that have an $80 MSRP price point (without lights) that are not dome cars. The expansive curved windows, of whatever material Walthers is using, and slightly more detailed interior of the dome car to me justify a slightly higher price for a dome car.
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Post by pilpro on Dec 2, 2013 9:22:08 GMT -8
I will be picking one up when they put them on sale (the heritage P42s went down to $75 before they sold out). Plus you can get an additional 10% off if you are an Amtrak Guest Rewards member. With both discounts I bet it'll be in the $60 range sometime next year. Not too bad.
Paul Z.
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Post by curtmc on Dec 2, 2013 11:02:44 GMT -8
It amazes me how some want to justify an IMHO outrageous price for a HO passenger car based on other future outrageous prices, limited availability, or a special production run... Lets get real... Walthers domed Superliner cars used to be about $20 and I've seen many for $10.
I guess the old adage ("a fool and his money are soon parted") rings even truer in today's HO trains... Anybody who would pay such a price for any mass produced plastic HO item only needs to look in the mirror to see the reason prices are escalating so rapidly. The manufacturers see a few willing to pay such prices and suddenly believe everybody should.
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Post by mlehman on Dec 2, 2013 12:33:13 GMT -8
Not my cup o' tea, so I'll likely never buy one... There are many "bottom lines" in this hobby. Price is just one of them. If it was the only one or even the most important one, we'd still be in the BB era. Any old junk would be OK so long as the price was as close to $1.99 that Unlce Irv's descendants could make it. From the looks of the market, both vendors and consumers have moved in the other direction. Since we just had the discussion in another thread that most of the costs that go into a model are unavoidable and mostly beyond the control of the vendor if they want to deliver a competitive product to the market ( atlasrescueforum.proboards.com/thread/1890/atlas-lv-offering-lazy?page=1), there seems little point in discussing where in an "outrageous price" that's a few dollar more than what we're used to seeing could be cut. If the inventory is in 160 range right now, Amtrak may never have had more than 15 cases of these specially produced cars made. If you want one, buy it, but I think it will have little to no effect on the cost of merchandise. But some myths die hard.  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2013 13:01:59 GMT -8
I guess the old adage ("a fool and his money are soon parted") rings even truer in today's HO trains... Anybody who would pay such a price for any mass produced plastic HO item only needs to look in the mirror to see the reason prices are escalating so rapidly. The manufacturers see a few willing to pay such prices and suddenly believe everybody should. Curt has a point. There have been countless threads on this forum and the old Atlas forum about escalating price. Yet, a manufacturer rolls out some never done before model and people are flapping their fingers on this forum and the old Atlas forum on the case loads they are going to buy. So what happened with the price. If its something we don't want its "too modern for me", "not my line", "too old for me" and "whatever. If its something we might be marginally interested in, then price seems to figure strongly in the decision. If its something we JUST HAVE TO HAVE because "my road had 150 of these", "its my era", "it interchanged with my road", "I've wanted this model since I was born", whatever. Then price seems to be no factor! There is no way in heck that price is ever going to do a major retreat "it is what it is" and no way no how is everyone going to stop spending money on toy trains. There will always be the latest and the greatest hitting the market and there will still be people lined up around the corner to buy said toy.....even if the price seems out of line to some. Maybe if plastic passenger cars hit the $150+ per car mark discounted and locomotives without sound hit $250 discounted and sound nears $400+ discounted, you may see people bailing in big numbers. But nobody even the manufacturers know what the "too much" price is going to be in the future. |
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Post by jlwii2000 on Dec 2, 2013 15:05:21 GMT -8
Good points made by many. I look at model railroading and the spending of money within the hobby as something decent to do with my money. I have friends that golf, they have no retained value from golfing. I have friends that go out and drink and travel places to drink, again no value retained in that at all. Then I have friends who go hunting, not much value retained but some good deer meat is worth something. I have people I knew from school caught up in drugs, definitely no value there. Then you have this hobby, where if you keep your original box and paperwork and it's not a tyco engine you can retain about 60-80% of your value. Sometimes you luck out and make more than you paid. So I enjoy tossing money into it sometimes without going overboard. My only point with this Amtrak car was that three things killed it for me: 1. Price 2. The ability to easily model it with a $30 car 3. The dome is not tinted jet black which makes it not look so great in my opinion. I wasn't trying to force my opinions on anyone else, I'm sure other people are loving this car. But it's not for me. I may have stirred the crap pot a little by fostering conversation about it, but I honestly like hearing others opinions and you guys have quite an array. I like hearing from you guys because it helps me to think of things from different perspectives and consider changing my stance on certain things. I try to put myself in other people's shoes with other people's wallets so to speak.
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