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Post by ChessieFan1978 on Mar 3, 2014 17:45:58 GMT -8
I am thinking of getting into DCC and am wondering if the Digitraxx Super Empire Builder is all I need to get started? There's a set on sale on Ebay I am watching. Comes with DB150 command station, DT402 Super Digital Throttle, UP5 panel, and cables and user manual.
Thanks,
Matt
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Post by wendtsc on Mar 3, 2014 21:42:17 GMT -8
That would allow you to run trains. The only thing missing is a power supply and a good way to program your decoders.
From the DCCwiki FAQ page:
"The Digitrax DB150 cannot read back CVs, using any combination of hardware or software. The functionality is simply not built into the command station. Only the Chief and the Zephyr systems can read CVs."
You can still use it to program, you just won't be able to tell whether the decoder got all the new programming or not. This would make changing the speedtables to make differnet locomotives run at the same speed (speed matching) almost impossible. You also would not be able to read back a locomotive address or read back whether a decoder was set for long or short address. If you were ever unsure or you forgot what the address was, you would have to either do a factory reset and start over, or use a friend's program track.
This shortfall is why you often see these systems pop up on ebay. Most people who have a DB150 usually end up usig it as a booster only or for a reverse loop or something.
Scott
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Post by ChessieFan1978 on Mar 4, 2014 3:18:37 GMT -8
So the Super Chief would be better?
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Post by bnsf971 on Mar 4, 2014 4:01:49 GMT -8
The Chief is better, but I have used my Empire Builder for a couple of years now.
I have decoder pro loaded onto a laptop, and do my programming that way. The only extra expense was the interface for the computer, and even with that, the whole setup was much less than a Chief.
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Post by mlehman on Mar 4, 2014 4:51:31 GMT -8
So the Super Chief would be better? Actually, a NCE system would be "better."  All partisanship aside, Terry mentioned DecoderPro, which is a very useful application to have no matter your choice in DCC systems. It's part of the JMRI system of open-source tools for managing DCC, operations and other computer-assisted aspects of model railroading. Well worth looking into. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2014 7:18:11 GMT -8
When choosing a DCC system you need to consider, what you have now and what you want in the future. DCC can control more than just the locomotive. You can put no-load decoders in passenger cars, cabooses and turn lights on or off. For instance, you can have a two function decoder in a caboose and turn on the interior light and marker lights. Then you can turn off the interior lights and run it with the markers lit. When you park the caboose in the yard, you can turn off the markers. The system can also control your Tortoise switch machines, with the proper DCC hardware. If you have the money, go with the 8 amp Super Chief with Duplex radio starter set, it comes with a power supply. www.digitrax.com/products/starter-sets/scfxd8/One of the nice things about Digitrax is the Loco-net which allows you to tie Digitrax systems together as your layout grows. The Super Chief also features a separate programming output. |
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Post by railfan4life on Mar 4, 2014 7:31:27 GMT -8
I am thinking of getting into DCC and am wondering if the Digitraxx Super Empire Builder is all I need to get started? There's a set on sale on Ebay I am watching. Comes with DB150 command station, DT402 Super Digital Throttle, UP5 panel, and cables and user manual. Thanks, Matt It really depends in what you want out of the system. As long as it does what you want, then yes it is a fine system. I personally use a Super Chief radio system. I've also used a couple NCE systems and they are all fine, it mainly just personal preference of the form and function of the handheld and how a few functions, like consisting, work. Personally I like all of the radio/wireless systems/handhelds better than having to be tethered. I'll second the endorsement to DecoderPro as the ONLY way to program your decoders. I've got a PR3 hooked to my laptop and a section of flex as a programming track on my workbench. Far better than any of the DCC handhelds for programming. |
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Post by ChessieFan1978 on Mar 4, 2014 11:26:19 GMT -8
When choosing a DCC system you need to consider, what you have now and what you want in the future. DCC can control more than just the locomotive. You can put no-load decoders in passenger cars, cabooses and turn lights on or off. For instance, you can have a two function decoder in a caboose and turn on the interior light and marker lights. Then you can turn off the interior lights and run it with the markers lit. When you park the caboose in the yard, you can turn off the markers. The system can also control your Tortoise switch machines, with the proper DCC hardware. If you have the money, go with the 8 amp Super Chief with Duplex radio starter set, it comes with a power supply. www.digitrax.com/products/starter-sets/scfxd8/One of the nice things about Digitrax is the Loco-junet which allows you to tie Digitrax systems together as your layout grows. The Super Chief also features a separate programming output. Just to do check the above comes with power supply so all I need are decoders in my locomotive? matt |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2014 12:39:53 GMT -8
When choosing a DCC system you need to consider, what you have now and what you want in the future. DCC can control more than just the locomotive. You can put no-load decoders in passenger cars, cabooses and turn lights on or off. For instance, you can have a two function decoder in a caboose and turn on the interior light and marker lights. Then you can turn off the interior lights and run it with the markers lit. When you park the caboose in the yard, you can turn off the markers. The system can also control your Tortoise switch machines, with the proper DCC hardware. If you have the money, go with the 8 amp Super Chief with Duplex radio starter set, it comes with a power supply. www.digitrax.com/products/starter-sets/scfxd8/One of the nice things about Digitrax is the Loco-junet which allows you to tie Digitrax systems together as your layout grows. The Super Chief also features a separate programming output. Just to do check the above comes with power supply so all I need are decoders in my locomotive? matt Its a complete starter set, all you need is to install the decoders of your choice. |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Mar 4, 2014 17:31:15 GMT -8
Matt,
What is your layout situation? Do you need radio throttles? Are you running a lot of equipment? The reason I ask is that most layouts don't actually require a Chief or even an Empire Builder set. I run my 25' x 50' layout with a Zephyr II. Last week, I ran an 8-man operation session and had no problems related to the size of my command station. My layout has the DCS51 Zephyr II, a UR91 radio receiver, a bunch of UP-5's, and 3 or more DT400R or UT4R throttles.
Scott,
Not for nothing, but when I speed match locos, I do it on the mainline. I never read them.
Jim,
Not 100% correct. The power supply that comes with the set in the link is just for the radio receiver. The system itself still needs it's own power supply.
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Post by ChessieFan1978 on Mar 4, 2014 18:46:18 GMT -8
My layout is about 12x29 . I run about 10-15 locomotives at any given time. I currently use 3 MRC Control Master 20's to operate.
Matthew
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Post by wendtsc on Mar 5, 2014 1:45:32 GMT -8
Wow, I was waiting for the Digitrax vs NCE debate. I will have to say that this is the most civilized I have ever seen a thread about DCC system choices. One suggestion would be to do what I have seen a few clubs that use Digitrax have done. They use the Digitrax on the main layout, but then they buy a NCE PowerCab for their program track. The PowerCab is capable of programming any decoder on the market without needing any programming booster. ANother advantage to this is that if you want to use DecoderPro, the interface is real cheap. Also, because your programming would be separate from the loconet, you wouldn't run into a lot of the conflict problems. The program track can operate without any disruptions on the layout. One thing to consider with Digitrax that is often ovelooked is its limited stack. Because all consisting info and locomotives on the layout have to be plugged into a slot in the CS, if you forget to remove them when you take them off the layout, you can end up filling up all the slots. This happened almost every session at the club I belonged to. Someone then had to login and clear out all the slots. NCE avoids this whole problem by allowing consisting to be stored in the decoders. this also means you can program a consist of locomotives and then take them to an entireley different layout and they will still be consisted! Of course, right now I am banging my head over the fact that Digitrax has basically plug and play signal control and the NCE signal system well...  ANyway, of course its up to you. I understand Digitrax has excellent customer service and great replacement policies. I don't know about NCE's replacement policies, in 15 years, I have never had anything go wrong!  Scott |
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Post by bnsf971 on Mar 5, 2014 3:51:44 GMT -8
Scott, that does remind me of a limitation of the Empire Builder, the number of addresses available.
There are only 20-22, depending on which model. The Chief has a couple hundred.
Digitrax isn't clear how tonremove them.
Using the DT402 or equivalent, remove an engine by pushing engine, the engine number, engine (or enter), then push engine, then exit.
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Mar 5, 2014 8:16:44 GMT -8
Matt, So you're running 3 trains at the same time, but with 10 to 15 engines so that each train has 3 to 5 engines each? If you're going to keep them together, then you can do "basic" consisting which is merely programming them all to the same number and changing CV29 to make them run in the same direction no matter which way they are pointing. The only reason I bring this up is because the Z is significantly cheaper than the SEB or the SC. Of course, if all your engines have sound, then you're going to have to skip the Z as it just doesn't have enough power for that many sound engines. Scott, It's pretty calm because most of us know each other's systems and the arguments are mostly settled between NCE and Digitrax. NCE users have historically been a tad snarky in their online behavior (see Mike's "Actually, a NCE system would be "better." "), and for whatever reason they've backed off as of late. This keeps return fire to a minimum. Overall it's a much calmer debate than the old days when every Digtrax thread would get an NCE user's negative commentary, sort of like Apple Mac users were/are to Windows users. At my club, and at every club I've been to that uses Digitrax, they don't use NCE for programming. It would mean learning an entire second DCC system. What we use and what I've seen at other Digitrax clubs is a totally isolated programming area off the layout. At my club it's a wheeled cart that has it's own Chief, PR-3, QSI Programmer, LokSound programmer and a PC running JMRI and RR&Co. The Chief on the cart also acts as a spare "brain" for the layout, for if it dies during a show it's a quick swap. The "stack" or memory of the Chief system is 120 addresses, but from the factory the stack defaults to just 22 (the same as the SEB). You have to program the OPSW (option switch) inside the Chief's programming to 120 addresses. And if someone resets the Chief to default settings for whatever reason, it must be changed back. This has bitten us more than once, but it's a quick fix with the free LocoNet Monitor software. As for the slots filling up, you must train your members to un-MU properly. Since we remind people often, it's not been much of a problem. Also, we wipe the slots clean before every major session (shows, open houses, ops) so it's not a big deal for us. Personally, I don't find Advanced Consisting (the NCE and Lenz way) that big of an advantage over Universal Consisting (the Digitrax way). There are all kinds of things you have to program to get certain engines in the Advanced Consist to run with the lights on or off, or not blow the whistle or ring the bell when the lead unit does, etc. With Universal Consisting, that's never an issue. The controlling address for the MU is the lead loco. The trailing units move along with their lead loco, but only with motor speed and direction. So when you blow the horn of the consist, only the lead loco blows it's horn (none of the others do). If you want to have the 2nd or 3rd unit to have their lights on or off, you just select them with the left knob of a DT-type Digitrax throttle and turn them on or off and they stay that way. it's pretty simple. Terry, Just to be clear, the Chief has up to 120 slots available, but must be programmed by OPSW from 22 to 120 when new out of the box. Digitrax is clear on how to dump the memory in the slots: change OPSW36 to "c". To do so, move the right-most toggle on the brain to "OP" mode and unplug the LocoNet wires from it. Plug in a DT-series throttle into the brain and hit the "SWCH" button on the throttle. Punch in "36" and hit the "CLOC/c" button (the same one used to clear mainline switches), then move the right most toggle down to "SLEEP" mode, then up to "RUN" mode. Unplug the throttle and plug in the LocoNet and that's it. Or, if one has an attached PC running LocoNet Monitor software, just open the Command Station window. Click on "Clear the slot memory" check box then "Write Modified" and it's done. It's a lot easier with the PC. And FWIW, the correct method of releasing an address with a DT400-type throttle is to hit "LOCO", then hit "DISP". Other methods will work (like "EXIT" or "FUNC"), but only "DISP" will completely release the memory slot. |
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Post by ChessieFan1978 on Mar 5, 2014 11:47:15 GMT -8
Yes your correct Paul, I would only be running that many at any given time. I only have 3 sound equipped locomotives (sound is annoying after awhile and not worth the extra $$$ to me)
Matt
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Post by bnsf971 on Mar 5, 2014 12:36:52 GMT -8
Paul, I'll check again when I get home, but I remember "dispatch" only releasing the address from the throttle, and selecting the address and hitting "exit" purges the address from the system. For right now in this instance it won't matter, but eventually it might. I used to get "slot=max" messages when I simply dispatched addresses. Now that I select "exit" instead, I haven't had that happen.
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Post by bnsf971 on Mar 5, 2014 16:35:33 GMT -8
Okay, I read my manual, and confirmed it with Digitrax's website. Pushing "disp" only releases the address to the system so another throttle can use it without stealing it. It remains in the system until removed, either by auto-purging after a time of non-use (signified by 3 beeps of the DB150) or choosing the address and pushing "exit".
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Post by railfan4life on Mar 5, 2014 17:08:36 GMT -8
Yes your correct Paul, I would only be running that many at any given time. I only have 3 sound equipped locomotives (sound is annoying after awhile and not worth the extra $$$ to me) Matt Matt, if that's all you're running, then even an Empire Builder might be more than you'd need. If you like the NCE handheld, then the NCE PowerCab might be your best option. The entire DCC system is in the handheld and it comes with a power supply. If you want a more stationary system then the Digitrax Zepher would be a good option too and also comes with a power supply. Also, if you have any engines without decoders, the Digitrax systems can run those engines using decoder address 00. The NCE systems don't have the capability to run non decoder equipped engines. However, having a non decoder equipped engine on a DCC layout increases the risk of burning out the engine's motor, so its not something you'd want to do a lot anyway. |
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Post by ChessieFan1978 on Mar 5, 2014 18:21:53 GMT -8
Thanks guys!
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Mar 5, 2014 18:33:12 GMT -8
Terry, From www.digitrax.com/static/apps/products/starter-sets/scfx/documents/SuperChiefXtra_1.pdfPage 62, Quote: 11.4 Releasing An Address From A ThrottleWhen you are finished running a locomotive address, release if from your throttle so that it is available for other throttles to select and run. Simplex Radio and Infrared Throttles must be plugged in to LocoNet to release an addresses from your throttle. You can disable this safety feature by setting your DT402’s Options to allow tetherless release (See Section 15.0 for instructions). Duplex Radio throttles can release addresses without plugging in. 1. Use the throttle to make the locomotive’s speed zero (this step is optional but strongly recommended as the loco will continue to move if speed is not reduced to zero). 2. While the loco’s address and speed information is displayed, press the LOCO key to go into Lo select mode. This will release the address from your throttle immediately. 3. The address will begin to blink in the display. Press the DISP key to dispatch the address on the throttle and the locomotive will be released to the system and marked as a dispatched address. The display on your DT402 will show SEL for the throttle. See Dispatching below. 4. If you press the LOCO key again, the throttle will begin flashing the address you just released. You can re-select that address by pressing the LOCO key or you can use the throttle knobs or key pad to browse to a new address and select it instead. End Quote Also, in my own experience, I watched a PC set up with LocoNet Checker (not LocoNet Monitor...my bad) at my club, and it was running the Slot Monitor program. This shows real-time what's going on in all the slots. When you select and run an engine and blow the horn, it all shows up in Slot Monitor. We tried various things to release an address, including using "FUNC", "EXIT" and "DISP". Only "DISP" caused the system to treat the slot as "Idle" whereas the other methods made the slot go to "Common". With "Common", the slot is still being refreshed by the command station and cannot be replaced with a different address (therefore still taking up a slot). With "Idle", it's not being refreshed and can be replaced with a different address in the slot. |
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Post by railfan4life on Mar 5, 2014 21:24:49 GMT -8
Terry, From www.digitrax.com/static/apps/products/starter-sets/scfx/documents/SuperChiefXtra_1.pdfPage 62, Quote: 11.4 Releasing An Address From A ThrottleWhen you are finished running a locomotive address, release if from your throttle so that it is available for other throttles to select and run. Simplex Radio and Infrared Throttles must be plugged in to LocoNet to release an addresses from your throttle. You can disable this safety feature by setting your DT402’s Options to allow tetherless release (See Section 15.0 for instructions). Duplex Radio throttles can release addresses without plugging in. 1. Use the throttle to make the locomotive’s speed zero (this step is optional but strongly recommended as the loco will continue to move if speed is not reduced to zero). 2. While the loco’s address and speed information is displayed, press the LOCO key to go into Lo select mode. This will release the address from your throttle immediately. 3. The address will begin to blink in the display. Press the DISP key to dispatch the address on the throttle and the locomotive will be released to the system and marked as a dispatched address. The display on your DT402 will show SEL for the throttle. See Dispatching below. 4. If you press the LOCO key again, the throttle will begin flashing the address you just released. You can re-select that address by pressing the LOCO key or you can use the throttle knobs or key pad to browse to a new address and select it instead. End Quote Also, in my own experience, I watched a PC set up with LocoNet Checker (not LocoNet Monitor...my bad) at my club, and it was running the Slot Monitor program. This shows real-time what's going on in all the slots. When you select and run an engine and blow the horn, it all shows up in Slot Monitor. We tried various things to release an address, including using "FUNC", "EXIT" and "DISP". Only "DISP" caused the system to treat the slot as "Idle" whereas the other methods made the slot go to "Common". With "Common", the slot is still being refreshed by the command station and cannot be replaced with a different address (therefore still taking up a slot). With "Idle", it's not being refreshed and can be replaced with a different address in the slot. Paul, Terry, Before switching to a different locomotive or consist, I dispatch my locos using the process Paul lists above. Since I started doing so, I've never had the "SLOT=MAX" error. I can't say using "exit" doesn't work as I don't use that process. But using "DISP" certainly does work. |
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Post by wendtsc on Mar 6, 2014 22:23:25 GMT -8
So as someone who only learned enough about Digitrax to run trains at the club, I guess I am wondering the reasoning behind using the whole SLOT set up to begin with. Maybe someone here could help since I know as primarily an NCE user, I would be banished for being a troll if I asked on the Digitrax Yahoo Group.  At first glance it seems to just be the result of Digitrax design philosophy of a more centralized control, but is there a more practical reason anyone knows of? Does this provide a particular advantage, is it a way to help control the amount of polling data required on the loconet? From my basic understanding of the way Loconet works, correct me if I am wrong, the command station polls every address listed in the stack with priority given to those addresses where more command packets are being sent. So, a switcher in a yard will be polled more often than a locomotive on the mainline or sitting in staging. However, all of the addresses do have to get occasional instructions (for safety's sake if nothing else) to be sure that locomotives are still doing what they are suppose to be doing. Or, is this a design feature that is left over from the old days when the capabilities of decoders to remember things like "Did I still have lights on and was I moving right before that last layout shutdown?" was nonexistent? In the old days of dumb decoders, having a lot of this information stored in the CS would have been very useful and having a stack of slots would obviously ahve been the best way to manage it and also solve the polling issue as well. Just curious because if there are certain reasons, then in future recommendations I could say, "Yeah, there is this difference that I thought was a limitation, but it allows this which could be a big advantage..."  |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Mar 7, 2014 9:36:07 GMT -8
wendtsc, Well, what do you think would be the reaction if a Digitrax user went on the NCE Yahoo Group and wondered about the reasoning behind using their master-slave network?  I predict it wouldn't end well... The funny part of your post to me is your characterization of the Digitrax design philosophy as more "centralized control". The Digitrax LocoNet is a peer-to-peer network (like LAN), while NCE, Lenz, MRC, et al., are all master-slave systems (polled bus). The Digitrax design philosophy is the exact opposite of centralized control. For example, when my club bought it's Chief system in 1999, there was no radio throttles, no functions above F8, etc. But when the radio throttles became available, and when the DT400's with F9 to F12 became available, all we did was plug them into our existing Digitrax LocoNet and they worked fine. They were true plug-n-play because the LocoNet is decentralized with each device being "smart". The new devices were smart enough to work on the existing network. NCE, OTOH, had to release update after update to allow for new products when they came online, otherwise they wouldn't work. Their centralized polled-bus network relies on a "smart" brain asking "dumb" components what they are doing. The LocoNet doesn't work the way that's implied in your post (to my knowledge). It's an event-driven network. There's no polling (that's NCE). For example, say a throttle issues a move command. That move command goes from the throttle to the brain via the LocoNet. The brain then converts the LocoNet message into the NMRA DCC wave packet, which is then transmitted to the track power bus which conducts it to the locomotive. The loco receives all NMRA DCC wave packets, but only listens to the ones that are addressed to it. When it gets one, it performs the command and keeps doing it until it receives another command. An engine will theoretically run forever this way, which is why there's the purge command when an engine has not been sent a new throttle command after so many seconds (300 sec., etc.). As for advantages, it's a lot easier to use. As I said before, Universal consisting is set up to run from the lead loco. So when you're controlling the consist and you blow the horn, only the lead loco blows it's horn. None of the others do. But with Advanced consisting, you have to program each individual loco in the consist to blow or not blow it's horn when the F2 button is hit. And not just horns, but also bells, headlights, strobes, and more. With Digitrax, the "active throttle" is the only one that blows the horn or rings the bell, etc. With Digitrax, I can grab any number of sound engines, MU them together, and run them with just the lead loco blowing the horn in only the time it takes to MU the locos. Can NCE do that? |
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Post by bnsf971 on Mar 7, 2014 17:57:44 GMT -8
Paul, since the OP has gotten the info he needed, I don't think we need to go any further in this thread. Maybe we can start another one and continue, relating experiences with this and why my DB150 works 100% opposite of how it is supposed to work in the instructions you have. Maybe (?) some kind of firmware difference. I know if I select "disp" on my throttle, the address stays in the system.
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Post by railfan4life on Mar 8, 2014 15:07:50 GMT -8
So as someone who only learned enough about Digitrax to run trains at the club, I guess I am wondering the reasoning behind using the whole SLOT set up to begin with. Maybe someone here could help since I know as primarily an NCE user, I would be banished for being a troll if I asked on the Digitrax Yahoo Group. At first glance it seems to just be the result of Digitrax design philosophy of a more centralized control, but is there a more practical reason anyone knows of? Does this provide a particular advantage, is it a way to help control the amount of polling data required on the loconet? From my basic understanding of the way Loconet works, correct me if I am wrong, the command station polls every address listed in the stack with priority given to those addresses where more command packets are being sent. So, a switcher in a yard will be polled more often than a locomotive on the mainline or sitting in staging. However, all of the addresses do have to get occasional instructions (for safety's sake if nothing else) to be sure that locomotives are still doing what they are suppose to be doing. Or, is this a design feature that is left over from the old days when the capabilities of decoders to remember things like "Did I still have lights on and was I moving right before that last layout shutdown?" was nonexistent? In the old days of dumb decoders, having a lot of this information stored in the CS would have been very useful and having a stack of slots would obviously ahve been the best way to manage it and also solve the polling issue as well. Just curious because if there are certain reasons, then in future recommendations I could say, "Yeah, there is this difference that I thought was a limitation, but it allows this which could be a big advantage..." I do not know of any advantage to the SLOT set up. It just one of those "that's the way it is" things to me. I would prefer that the system handled the slots automatically so that an operator didn't have to dispatch locomotives just to keep the slots from filling up. Once I got used to dispatching the engines all the time it wasn't a big deal. But I don't see any advantage having the slots fill up. |
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I predict it wouldn't end well...