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Post by rapidotrains on Jun 14, 2014 19:03:50 GMT -8
Hi all, Here in Toronto we are wrapping up an international arts festival called Luminato. I had the privilege of being a part of it... or more specifically my model trains were! Both HO and 1:1. I've always been interested in the intersection of model trains and art, as I have an art background. So many layouts I have seen would be given pride of place at the National Gallery were they created by an established "fine" artist as opposed to a guy in his basement. And so many layout builders that I regard as artists never see themselves as such. I've often heard "well I'm not much of a landscape painter so ignore the badly-painted backdrop" as I'm looking at one of the most phenomenal photo-realistic paintings I've ever seen, blending seamlessly into the foreground scenery. So two aims of this post. First, I want to share with you the whole experience of merging art and trains in the Luminato Festival. I was part of an event called The Lost Train, in which we brought in "passengers" to the full-size train in my basement for a five-star meal by a famous chef (who loves trains) while a famous DJ (who also loves trains) was spinning train-themed discs. It's the last part of the latest Rapido News, which can be viewed here: www.rapidotrains.com/rapidonews57.html Secondly, I'd love to hear your experiences of model trains as art, or your experiences encountering model railroads that really should be considered art but the builder has no clue. Best regards, Jason In the photo below: Chef Fred Morin tells passengers about the thoughts behind the meal they've just eaten... in my basement!  |
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on Jun 14, 2014 21:14:14 GMT -8
What would make your passenger car experience much better I think you should just purchase 1 or two 60" LED TVs and attach them to the windows then after that (or before) you should go to a real passenger subway system & rail system and record quite a bit of time just pointing out of the windows. Then run a loop of the videos depending on what route or passenger system you want people to experience right on DVD and into the windows. Would be OFF THE HOOK.
P.S. some model railroading things are an art but buying model trains, throwing down some track, doing crappy scenery, crappy backdrop and running some engines does not constitute an art.
Then again I think that being good at sex is an art and I am a GREAT artist.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 14, 2014 21:14:29 GMT -8
Jason,
And what of the builders who do have a clue?
Ed
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Post by atsfan on Jun 15, 2014 5:56:50 GMT -8
I can see a layout and tell if it is art instantly.
Some layouts are good for operations.
Some are good for showing the latest Walther's building.
Some are art.
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Post by WP 257 on Jun 15, 2014 6:12:01 GMT -8
Howard Zane's layout is art--simply the best I've ever seen. I've been privileged to have visited it on multiple occasions, and he has also been most generous to those railroad hysterical societies (even for western roads he does not happen to model) who have contacted him about hosting an open house.
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Post by rapidotrains on Jun 15, 2014 6:14:40 GMT -8
Howard Zane's layout IS art--simply the best I've ever seen. I've been privileged to have visited it on multiple occasions, and he has also been most generous to those railroad hysterical societies (even for western roads he does not happen to model) who have contacted him about hosting an open house. Agreed about Howard's layout, though I've only seen it in books. I would say the same about Fred Lagno, certainly: The Magic of Fred Lagno-Jason |
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Post by WP 257 on Jun 15, 2014 6:20:50 GMT -8
Jason--
The meat reefer looks awesome.
One gap in the hobby is that nobody has ever done a correct Santa Fe 50' or 57' mechanical reefer. The Intermountain SP/UP reefer is a "stand-in" for ATSF Class RR-91, with incorrect truck spacing, etc.
However, nothing else ever done on the market is really even close to a Santa Fe mechanical reefer--and they had plenty of them that went everywhere--probably some even north of the border?
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Post by WP 257 on Jun 15, 2014 6:24:15 GMT -8
Dan Glasure believes that brass model trains themselves are an art, as expressed in his book.
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Post by atsfan on Jun 15, 2014 9:47:17 GMT -8
Howard Zane's layout is art--simply the best I've ever seen. I've been privileged to have visited it on multiple occasions, and he has also been most generous to those railroad hysterical societies (even for western roads he does not happen to model) who have contacted him about hosting an open house. I would agree. His is the 1 in 1000 that combine all the elements. |
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Post by Brakie on Jun 15, 2014 9:49:21 GMT -8
"If model railroading is a art then why isn't there any "starving modelers art sales".
I read that comment several years back and often wonder about that question ever since then..I don't see model railroading as a art just because the idea was pushed in MR some years ago.
I do see model railroading as several craft type hobbies from wood working to diorama modeling.
I even see MR as a roll playing game(RPG) through operation.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2014 14:12:28 GMT -8
Howard Zane's layout IS art--simply the best I've ever seen. I've been privileged to have visited it on multiple occasions, and he has also been most generous to those railroad hysterical societies (even for western roads he does not happen to model) who have contacted him about hosting an open house. Agreed about Howard's layout, though I've only seen it in books. I would say the same about Fred Lagno, certainly: The Magic of Fred Lagno-Jason I've seen Fred Lagno's layout in magazines in the past and have not been particularly impressed. Fancy photography, but some of the modeling could be better. I KNOW I'm looking at model train with his work, because of something such as an over-sized a street lamp and the scenery is scraggly in places. In other words, its not 100% convincing. But this is what I see and your mileage may vary. Now to me, George Sellios "Franklin & South Manchester" and Tom Johnson's "Logansport and Indiana Northern" qualify as art. When you see photos of their layouts you are nearly convinced that they are photos of the prototype. That is what I consider to be art, when you can't tell if you are looking at a model or prototype photograph. Many people dismiss model trains as legitimate art, since they are realistically toys. Grown men, transforming into little boys and playing with their toys. Most if not all layouts are inaccessible to the general public. Nearly all layouts are housed in private homes basements, spare rooms and garages. Well known layouts like the one at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago are viewed more as an action exhibit than art. Go to a serious art gallery and set up a very well done layout get the trains running and people will call the models "cute", etc. Rembrandt is art, models are considered collectible toys. We take our hobby very seriously, but I feel the vast majority of the general public feel its just grown men playing with expensive toys. |
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Post by umtrrauthor on Jun 15, 2014 15:12:34 GMT -8
The late John Coots (of N Scale of Nevada, Scale Structures Limited and other ventures) frequently described model railroading as an art form. I can think of several layouts that fit that description for one reason or several.
Having been to several Railroad Prototype Modeler meets now, I would personally see how modeling rolling stock could be considered an art, though I'm not sure many RPMers would think of it that way.
What is nice about Model Railroading being an art form is that its interpretation is up to the modeler--- and thus, once again, we have "Rule #1."
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2014 15:49:15 GMT -8
Realistically what is worth more and considered by the vast majority to true art. A model railroad or rolling stock no matter how well done or painting by Salvador Dali?
I guess I can see where we create things from scratch, like a painter applying paint to a blank canvas. But, most items in even the best model layout or model is based on a manufactured product.
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Post by rapidotrains on Jun 15, 2014 15:55:04 GMT -8
Realistically what is worth more and considered by the vast majority to true art. A model railroad or rolling stock no matter how well done or painting by Salvador Dali? I guess I can see where we create things from scratch, like a painter applying paint to a blank canvas. But, most items in even the best model layout or model is based on a manufactured product. True, but it's what we do with the manufactured products that creates the art. Numerous "high art" installation pieces and sculptures involve manufactured items - it's what the artist does with them that makes them art. This isn't new. Check out Marcel Duchamp's works in the 1910s. There were some serious art people walking through my basement last week and because I defined the space as an "installation" they had no problem regarding it as art. Had I not had the ability to speak about the basement in art terms they probably would have seen it differently, maybe as an eccentric curiosity. My main argument is that the only reason great model railroads aren't regarded as art is because the modellers don't define them that way. -Jason |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2014 16:14:35 GMT -8
My main argument is that the only reason great model railroads aren't regarded as art is because the modellers don't define them that way. -Jason Dogs playing poker is art too!  The reason a model railroader may not consider what they are doing as art is that they are trying to copy a scene, etc. People just don't see it as being creative or thought provoking. Its not like a Picasso, where you have to ask yourself, what is the artist trying to convey. Even the most famous of layouts are inaccessible due to being in private homes. The general public can not see it and do not know most of the time it even exists. Only fellow model railroaders may know about the empire. Even though I think George Sellios layout is art, in the end it still can't be hung in Louvre. |
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Post by Brakie on Jun 15, 2014 16:50:38 GMT -8
I've seen two layouts over the years that resembled Picasso "finger" paintings-no rhyme or reason.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2014 19:52:03 GMT -8
I've seen two layouts over the years that resembled Picasso "finger" paintings-no rhyme or reason. I'd hazard a guess that 99% or better model railroads are "designed"(for some that is in question) to highlight the rolling stock. The layout serves as a backdrop for trains. After all you don't build a layout and then add some trains. Generally some of the rolling stock comes first and then the layout. If you love the Seaboard Coast Line for instance your layout is likely not going to be set in the Mojave desert! Likewise 'gators sunning themselves in a bayou is not a correct setting for 1960's Canadian Pacific trains. Like art, everybody's taste in a layout can and will vary. Nobody really likes every layout they see or read about in the magazines, etc.. Likewise nobody ever dislikes every featured layout. In the end any layout should feature the trains flowing through it. When the trains don't operate properly, that will distract from even the best scenery, buildings and details. |
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Post by mlehman on Jun 15, 2014 20:24:54 GMT -8
My main argument is that the only reason great model railroads aren't regarded as art is because the modellers don't define them that way. -Jason Dogs playing poker is art too! The reason a model railroader may not consider what they are doing as art is that they are trying to copy a scene, etc. People just don't see it as being creative or thought provoking.SNIP The discussion is going in an interesting direction, which is exactly where I wanted to make a point or two about the differences between a craft, which is the hegemonic normative standard in our hobby at the moment, and art. Talking like an artist there, but I think Jason's point is a very valid one. Are we artists or craftspeople? Or, for some of us, both? Jim's answer sums up nicely how many people practice the hobby now as prototype modeling. Find something real and recreate it. It is a craft that involves the application of duplicative, re-creative, and typical techniques, themes, conceptual formation and terminology. Innovations may occur, but these usually don't result in something entirely new and original in its expression. Oftentimes, there is a narrow range of themes, along with special emphasis on the railroad itself as it is the overall subject matter. It's inside the box thinking at it's finest, when it works. An art, on the other hand, tends to emphasize creativity and innovation. There may be methods, themes, and customs that are conserved in new work, but are just as likely to be overthrown, sometimes both occur at the same time. True, one can focus on duplication in miniature and never have to think about how something is interpreted for those who view it, i.e. any of that art stuff. How closely the model resembles the prototype is almost the sole criteria for assessing the "value" of the work. By value, I don't necessary mean financial value, rather artistic, social or even historical value as is often the case with railroads. I don't mean to exclude those who think of these things in terms of art or to discourage them from saying so. On the other hand, even the way a kit is assembled, let alone things like paint, lettering and weathering, can greatly change how a model is perceived, what message is being crafted by the artist. That starts edging into an art in some ways, even if people often don't think of it this way with individual models. And thus we get back to how model railroading can be an art. The ultimate expression of the art of model railroading is the layout or module. This is where all the pieces crafted with an eye on authenticity come together to be arranged by what can only be called an artistic process. The models may be exacting, exquisite copies of the prototype - or they may simply be representative. What matters is their assemblage into a whole that is greater than the sum of their parts. They have to be to be convincing, because even the greatest, best financed layouts simple don't have the space to do this by simply copying as closely as possible the original. This selective compression is one of the more familiar forms of artistic skills we apply to model railroading It is true that you can take a number of good models, plop them down, and call it good. It may even do a fairly good job of representing the totality of the prototype being depicted. But without some artistic skills, a scene, layout or module is difficult to pull off convincingly even with good models. |
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Post by wp8thsub on Jun 15, 2014 21:56:59 GMT -8
I like to engage in modeling as artistic expression, as my interest in prototype railroading is largely aesthetic. If the hobby didn't involve some kind of artistry for me my participation would likely be very different. Sure, I enjoy building models, but using them as part of a composition is where the fun comes in.  I devote a lot of the layout to scenes designed to evoke a sense of place. Foreground and background scenery are designed in one process so they work together. Paint colors are adjusted based on available 3-D scenery materials.  Other 3-D elements figure in, too. Here, the tree behind the structures was strategically located to absorb the shadow from the elevator. Other trees do the same for other parts of the industry.  Turnouts for industry spurs here were intended from the start to allow for this grade crossing and road scene. Colors and viewing angles of foreground and backdrop structures were developed together so they could exist harmoniously. The whole road was painted at once, 3-D and 2-D. Whether any of this qualifies as "art" to anyone beyond me isn't important. Having a creative outlet that allows me to combine some artistic expression with trains is what keeps me going between operating sessions. |
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Post by Brakie on Jun 16, 2014 2:18:11 GMT -8
In the end any layout should feature the trains flowing through it. When the trains don't operate properly, that will distract from even the best scenery, buildings and details.
-----------------------------------
Agreed..I remember well seeing a layout that was a 1960 era master piece but,the trains would not stay coupled,derailed and operated poorly.
I heard so much about that layout I could hardly wait to see it during the local NMRA layout tour.At 16 years old I was highly disappointed by its operation even though it was a great looking layout.
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Post by mlehman on Jun 16, 2014 5:40:58 GMT -8
Really excellent examples of how you think about what you're doing as art, Rob.  Larry, Your example shows how the art of model railroading usually requires a convincing display of craft skills. You could be a great artist, but unless you have some basic craft skills hanging from your tool belt, the results will be mediocre. Obviously, a carefully-edited presentation on a layout can focus on aspects that work in isolation well enough, while disguising the overall failure of the project to have the air of authenticity that great art taps into and makes accessible to the viewer. |
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Post by Brakie on Jun 16, 2014 6:50:47 GMT -8
Mike,For me a painted backdrop regardless how well its done lacks realism so,it more of a landscape painting then sitting the background scene.
Now a photo background does a much better job in convincing the viewer the background does indeed go to the horizon and beyond a great example and case study would be Tom Johnson's "Logansport and Indiana Northern" layout.
I would never call his layout "art" by any means,shape or form..I will call it what truly is..
A master piece built by a master modeler.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2014 6:52:58 GMT -8
On a whole model railroads don't make people pause and think. Scenery is blended with back drops. Rolling stock is weathered. Rolling stock and track is true to prototype. To which I say, yeah so.... Standard non earth shattering stuff. Did it take effort and talent? Yes, but no matter how well any of the above was done, it is just too perfect.
In other words 99.99% of the model railroads portray the world as one big happy place......to which we all know it is NOT!
I saw a military diorama of a World War II German railway with armed German solders and the eagle with the swastika on the side of the locomotive cab. It was not an SS train taking the Jews to the ovens, which would be too much for viewers. This was a German regular army or Wehrmacht supply train so it was at least a little benign. The modeling was outstanding, but I couldn't help but feel my eyes were drawn to the swastika and how uneasy it made me feel.
I would like to challenge or see a modeler who's prototype is based in the southern and southeast United States during the either the 40's, 50's or 60's, model Jim Crow. Have a station with TWO entrances and signs that say "White" and "Colored". Have the white passengers separated from black. Put the little HO scale black passengers in the back of the bus. Businesses with "White Only" on their windows.
Touchy subject? You bet!!!!! But boy would that make the viewer not only highly uncomfortable, but should also provoke thoughtfulness as to where we have evolved as a society and where we still need to go. What about being published in Model Railroader or RMC? Not on your life!
Model southern California or Los Angeles in the mid-1960's. Riots in the streets with the little HO people and burned out buildings. Nope I don't think this is making the cover of Model Railroader or RMC, let alone grace any part of the magazine.
Model the less desirable side of a modern city? Gang graffiti on the buildings? Drug dealing? Shootings? Some little HO person lying in a pool of blood? Beat downs? Cops frisking gang bangers? Stripped and abandoned cars....okay that is possibility. But everything else is taboo and this layout surely isn't making any magazine or layout tour! Its too real and too scary.
On layouts, how many little HO scale military personnel coming home from battle are missing arms or legs or confined to a wheelchair? Let's stay away from that visual!
Nope, our little HO scale world is perfect. There is never a bad day, never any racism, sexism, discrimination, violent crime, loss of life or other horrible occurrences. Nope even our traffic accidents are sterile, some crumpled fenders and a couple of HO scale people maybe having an argument. An HO scale person dead with their head through the windshield and blood dripping all around ain't making the cut....sorry a bad pun.
Our art is sterile, it provokes no uncomfortableness in the viewer, it provokes no deep thought, it provokes no raw emotion. We could do a lot more to accurately model the real world but 99.9999% won't touch it with a ten foot pole.
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Post by riogrande on Jun 16, 2014 7:25:06 GMT -8
I don't think it's a bad thing that 99.9999% won't touch the real world with a ten foot poll. Here is why:
I would argue that our little model railroad worlds are "sterile art" on purpose because we love trains and want to do something fun and relaxing in their spare time. For some some, maybe many, the hobby functions as an escape from the real world of stress and woe. So why would we want to portray a "real" world to such an extent as include the things which we wish to forget, at least for a time when we "playing" with trains.
I think it is a good thing to think of model trains as art, and it certainly can be and is in many cases. Bringing vagaries of the world as part of art and trying to push people out of their comfort is not very constructive for most of us.
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Post by Brakie on Jun 16, 2014 7:54:50 GMT -8
Jim,Food for thought.
We would not be having this discussion today if MR didn't try to push the idea model railroading is a art back in the early 90s..Some bought into the idea while many did not.
A good example would be that guest editorial that asks "What to do when the painting is finished?".
The author suggested tearing out the layout and starting a new "painting".
That doesn't sound like art to me..
How many artist tears up their painting that took a period of time to paint? I can't even see Bob Ross tearing up his paintings after each episode of "Joys of painting".
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Post by riogrande on Jun 16, 2014 8:47:33 GMT -8
I suppose that notion of tearing out the layout comes from that old and oft worn out mantra, "model railroad is never finished", and the idea that if you have something which is more or less "finished", then you rip it out and re-build because that's what a model railroader is supposed to do - so it is often suggested.
But to be fair, the tearing down process is often necessary because the hobby often uses up a lot more space than flat wall art such as paintings. If one moves or needs to re-use a space and can't afford to save and store his past art, the process by necessity often involves the destruction and loss of that art.
There isn't any thing wrong with viewing model railroading as art - naturally it includes art because part of the hobby is expressing ones interpretation of trains or that aspect of "real life" and expressing it in model form. Of course some have a great deal more talent than others - and that can be seen in the products of many in the hobby. But if the sole purpose was to make art, many of us would consider ourselves a failure - I include myself - because I don't and may never had the kind of talent that many do have. But I can still enjoy the hobby and grow in it in the ways that I am able.
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Post by wp8thsub on Jun 16, 2014 9:14:27 GMT -8
I think it is a good thing to think of model trains as art, and it certainly can be and is in many cases. Bringing vagaries of the world as part of art and trying to push people out of their comfort is not very constructive for most of us. Most of my enjoyment of art is based on how well it's executed - how much technical skill is involved. I don't always care for "art" to consciously push some kind of message, or evaluation of the human existence, at least not in most cases; that kind of thing frequently comes across as pretentious and heavy handed. If the artist depicts a stark reality, and lets me decide what to think of it, I usually have no problem with that, again provided it's been done well. I prefer my non-fiction writing like that too, just give me the facts, maybe some well-reasoned opinion, and lay off the pretense. I recently finished an autobiographical account from a Vietnam combat veteran who recounted his experiences quite well. Unfortunately, he and his editors kept allowing the narration to head off on political rants where he was clearly out of his depth and which were written in unpersuasive fashion. Trying too hard doesn't necessarily get your audience to understand anything new about the subject matter, often it merely makes it obvious you've exceeded your limitations. If we wish to push the same kind of creative envelope with our models, we should be mindful that in so doing we could likewise end up making ourselves look foolish. I've seen a few attempts at this and they usually fall flat. |
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Post by mlehman on Jun 16, 2014 10:44:20 GMT -8
SNIP There isn't any thing wrong with viewing model railroading as art - naturally it includes art because part of the hobby is expressing ones interpretation of trains or that aspect of "real life" and expressing it in model form. Of course some have a great deal more talent than others - and that can be seen in the products of many in the hobby. But if the sole purpose was to make art, many of us would consider ourselves a failure - I include myself - because I don't and may never had the kind of talent that many do have. But I can still enjoy the hobby and grow in it in the ways that I am able. Jim, I'm definitely not insisting anyone call themselves an artist if that's not a label they are comfortable with. I think there's a lot to be said for the hobby even if the whole idea of art was excised. We'd be left with the craftsmanship aspect and that has it's own rewards and as I tried to emphasize, just as vital as the art aspect if doing art is important to you. Good art doesn't happen unless one's technical execution is at least adequate. SNIP Nope, our little HO scale world is perfect. There is never a bad day, never any racism, sexism, discrimination, violent crime, loss of life or other horrible occurrences. Nope even our traffic accidents are sterile, some crumpled fenders and a couple of HO scale people maybe having an argument. An HO scale person dead with their head through the windshield and blood dripping all around ain't making the cut....sorry a bad pun. Our art is sterile, it provokes no uncomfortableness in the viewer, it provokes no deep thought, it provokes no raw emotion. We could do a lot more to accurately model the real world but 99.9999% won't touch it with a ten foot pole. Jim, Well, depends. I certainly have seen modeling that provokes. And as a experienced political provacateur myself, I certainly have my share of interesting commentary on the layout in various ways we probably don't want to get into here. But like Jim (just above), I certainly don't consider extensive political commentary an essential part of art, either. It's not essential to the craft. And you're right in that most people depict a rather perfect world...until you get to narrowgauge country, where we seem to have more than our fair allotment of decrepitness  So while all you speak of could be part of someone's art as expressed through model railroading, it's absence tells me nothing about whether or not it's art. In fact, I think Rob sums it up well. Most of my enjoyment of art is based on how well it's executed - how much technical skill is involved. I don't always care for "art" to consciously push some kind of message, or evaluation of the human existence, at least not in most cases; that kind of thing frequently comes across as pretentious and heavy handed. If the artist depicts a stark reality, and lets me decide what to think of it, I usually have no problem with that, again provided it's been done well. SNIP Art has to do with technical execution, as Rob notes, but also things like composition, choice of materials, perspective, curation of the elements of the "piece" (which could be a scene on a layout, a module, a structure, a loco, etc). Everyone in the hobby makes choices about those eventually. Some put more thought into the process than others. Even that doesn't have to be consciously thought of as art. Art is what you call it. If you insist what you're doing isn't art, that's cool, but others have the opportunity nonetheless to decide if it's art or not. Frankly, if someone says it's art and that wasn't even your intent, take it as a compliment and move on, because I'm pretty sure that's what it's intended as, if said honestly |
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Post by riogrande on Jun 16, 2014 12:13:27 GMT -8
Now to me, George Sellios "Franklin & South Manchester" and Tom Johnson's "Logansport and Indiana Northern" qualify as art. When you see photos of their layouts you are nearly convinced that they are photos of the prototype. That is what I consider to be art, when you can't tell if you are looking at a model or prototype photograph. To me, those layouts don't look like the prototype at all. They look like a fantasy version of the prototype. Disney-esque squared. I agree with you totally. It just goes to show you about the eye of the beholder. Some "art" is more fantasy oriented, some more imitating real places and scenes. While I can appreciate that much talent and skill went into G Sellios, M Furlow and Allen's layouts, et. al., I nearly always prefer scenes and back drops which are the latter, who I would include folks like Rob Spangler, Rand Hood... |
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Post by wp8thsub on Jun 16, 2014 13:35:28 GMT -8
Where did you get the ability to do such work? Well... by painting backdrops. I do enough of it to figure out how to more or less get the effects I need. |
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So while all you speak of could be part of someone's art as expressed through model railroading, it's absence tells me nothing about whether or not it's art. In fact, I think Rob sums it up well.