bcrn
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Post by bcrn on Jun 21, 2012 16:04:02 GMT -8
how often, if at all, do atlas and others ever decide to re-release some of their more popular models. walthers for example had some fairly popular kits ( with apologies to rtr ) it would be nice to have back.
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Post by rhpd42002 on Jun 21, 2012 16:38:56 GMT -8
I have no idea how often some things get re-released, but I would like to see the Walther's "Gold" Team Track Scene kit come back out. I had one ordered some years ago through my LHS, but by then it was already OOP.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2012 16:53:59 GMT -8
how often, if at all, do atlas and others ever decide to re-release some of their more popular models. walthers for example had some fairly popular kits ( with apologies to rtr ) it would be nice to have back. There is no real answer. It is a case by case decision by each manufacturer. Normally, the manufacturers have a flurry of releases when a model is first released. At that particular time it is new, fresh in people's minds and more importantly in demand. After that initial period, its anybody's guess. An example is the Athearn Genesis F-units, because of the sheer numbers of roads that owned the F's Athearn had plateful of roads to choose from each month, and you saw it in the numerous announcements over a period of years. Recently though, Athearn has slowed the F-unit parade to a more occasional announcement. Right now at Athearn the new GP7/9 is the "hot" model and new models are announced on a monthly basis. As far as kits go, they are dead and not coming back as long as the product continue to be produced overseas. My dealer and I have talked many many times about the kit issue. My dealer, myself and many others like kits, but when the dealer brings up the subject of: 1. Kits 2. Undecorated 3. Producing products in the U.S.A. The stock answer from ALL the manufacturers is those issues are not up for any form of discussion. |
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Post by curtmc on Jun 21, 2012 17:31:52 GMT -8
Walthers has been doing some limited re-releases of some of their Cornerstone building kits... Amtrak Station, Propane tanks, refinery, and a few other kits that were supposedly "retired" were done again in a limited rerun once backorders were sufficient...
But for the most part the above posting is dead on correct... The big manufacturers that have foreign subcontractors making their stuff have production minimums. To get enough reservations to meet those production minimums they have to cater to the largest remaining segment of the HO market... and these days that person doesn't built kits or paint/decal them. That is likely only done by about 5-10% of HO modelers now.
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jun 21, 2012 20:50:21 GMT -8
I agree that Jim is on target regarding that essentially it is a "case by case" or product by product decision from the individual manufacturers. Understandably, a principle factor of the decision to re-run a previously produced item is "potential sales". But as we've seen in our previous discussions on the old Atlas forum, sometimes we scratch our heads regarding the decisions made.
But I better understand now why, typically, we see F7s and coal hoppers run time and time again. Yet less common units that also sold out on the 1st run, might not be re-run again for some years or not at all. Seems that the manufacturer's line of thinking is that the "2nd time around" in a spotty economy is risky since there's a chance that it might not generate enough sales to recoup and profit from the investment.
I still continue to hope that Athearn will re-run the HO FRISCO SD45 with the L-shape windshield again. The 1st run quickly sold out some years back, but I'm assuming that Athearn's managers would wrestle with trying to forecast how well would the FRISCO unit sell again.
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Post by nw611 on Jun 22, 2012 1:17:57 GMT -8
Antonio, the first Genesis GP38-2s are due in late November. After the first batch (SP, Southern, Mopac and CN), Athearn will start announcing 3/4 new road names each month. I think you will see Frisco GP38-2s before a re-release of the RTR Frisco SD45s. Ciao.
Raffaele
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2012 4:00:46 GMT -8
Another factor in the how and why manufacturers do re-releases is freshness. New generally sells well, while you take big gambles on re-releases.
Just because, for example, the RTR as-built Southern Pacific SW1500's sell for premium prices on e-Bay doesn't mean a minimum production run of 1000 units or more is going to sell. In other words, just because maybe 100 people are looking for that model and are willing to pay top dollar, doesn't mean the other 900 units are going to sell, not necessarily quickly, but within six months of arrival.
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Post by el3637 on Jun 22, 2012 7:42:47 GMT -8
The stock answer from ALL the manufacturers is those issues are not up for any form of discussion. This, like all things, is subject to change. Andy |
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Post by mlehman on Jun 22, 2012 9:25:20 GMT -8
Another factor in the how and why manufacturers do re-releases is freshness. New generally sells well, while you take big gambles on re-releases. Just because, for example, the RTR as-built Southern Pacific SW1500's sell for premium prices on e-Bay doesn't mean a minimum production run of 1000 units or more is going to sell. In other words, just because maybe 100 people are looking for that model and are willing to pay top dollar, doesn't mean the other 900 units are going to sell, not necessarily quickly, but within six months of arrival. Exactly. If an item is widely used and likely to be in regular demand by modelers, you'll see it repeated. If not, well that one run was it, especially when it comes to a certain paint job. There might be a rerun, but it'll be decorated differently. Walthers has actually been pretty good at re-running things that are in common use. The stockyard and ice house kits are two examples where I had need of more and they were recently rerun (and I'm pretty sure there's been multiple re-runs since first release.) |
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Post by northern on Jun 22, 2012 17:21:17 GMT -8
Let us not forget HO vehicles. In particular Classic Metal Works.
It is now time to bring back some of there early 1950 cars back into production.
I am amazed at how high the early items go for on E-bay.
It is nice that they are bringing out new models such as the 1946-1948 Chevy trucks, the pickups are amazing in their detail. Not sure about the new plastic, do miss the opening hoods though.
Having said that , it is time to check e-bay to see what CMW autos are up for auction.
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Post by mlehman on Jun 22, 2012 20:07:53 GMT -8
I read somewhere that CMW licenses their runs either on a per unit or short-term basis. Once it's run, they'd have to put up the coin to re-license them. With the auto companies doing everything they can to make a buck these days, I'm sure that this adds to the threshold at which a project becomes financially viable.
Good for collectors, though. Can't have your cake and eat it too, so I've found that I need to act if I see something CMW is putting out that I want.
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Post by Judge Doom on Jun 22, 2012 22:06:04 GMT -8
What's amusing to me about reruns is when a manufacturer commissions a rerun of a model, but fudges some detail that was done correctly on the initial run (be it a paint scheme or detail variation, or just a mistake in the placement or printing of the lettering). Sometimes they let it through to hit the shelves (take-it-or-leave-it approach from the Chinese manufacturer maybe?) and that obvious error shines to all potential buyers, repelling them away from a purchase they wanted to make. Sigh  |
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Post by atsfan on Jun 23, 2012 6:10:12 GMT -8
There is absolutely a rule for when re runs are produced.
The length of time between runs is in direct proportion to how strongly you want them to do so.
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jun 24, 2012 13:50:08 GMT -8
Antonio, the first Genesis GP38-2s are due in late November. After the first batch (SP, Southern, Mopac and CN), Athearn will start announcing 3/4 new road names each month. I think you will see Frisco GP38-2s before a re-release of the RTR Frisco SD45s. Ciao. Raffaele Thanks. I'll continue to email Athearn from time to time. The GP38-2s are popular and will likely be good sellers. I'm hoping for the FRISCO SD45 as the prototypes regularly ran on SCL trains between the west and Florida. Plus I like their appearance with the L-windshields. If Athearn ever decides to rerun them, but the expectation is 2014 or later, I'll likely wind up buying an Athearn or P2K SD45 on ebay, give it the 91% alcohol paint strip bath, and refinish it into FRISCO. Last I checked, Cannon mades the EMD Spartan Cab with the L-windshield, which I can splice in. Although I understand the economic reasons, and appreciate the greater quality in drives and detailing of today's model railroad products....... I still find limited runs and sporadic reruns so frustrating . But all we can do is adapt and work with, or around it as best possible. |
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Post by upcsx on Jun 24, 2012 16:12:45 GMT -8
The Frisco units were run also between Hamlet and Bostic NC and ran on the Clinchfield too.
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jun 26, 2012 5:34:23 GMT -8
Thank you UPCSX,
Neat to know that FRISCO units roamed through several southeastern states, which for my layout would justify the regular presence of Frisco units in SCL territory.
Well, I sent Athearn an email and received the response below. Likely the standard type of reply, but hopefully will be genuinely considered:
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Thank-you for your inquiry. Please note that we currently do not have any plans to make a new production run of the Frisco RTR SD45. We will forward your suggestion to make some new ones on to the Product Development Group.
Sincerely,
Athearn Trains
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Post by drolsen on Jun 26, 2012 8:35:38 GMT -8
Well, I sent Athearn an email and received the response below. Likely the standard type of reply, but hopefully will be genuinely considered: Athearn really does keep a tally of requests and uses them when considering re-running particular models. I've seen this happen in two cases of undecorated kits that "don't sell." The ACF 2970 covered hopper and the FMC 5347 box car undecorated kits both sold out years ago after the first run and would sometimes sell for high prices on eBay (if they ever showed up). After repeated email requests to Athearn, they re-ran the ACF 2970 a couple years ago, and then the FMC 5347 last year. The undecorated ACF 2970 kit doesn't appear to have sold out (despite me buying about a dozen!), but the FMC 5347 sold out in a month or two, as far as I could tell (they probably ran fewer FMC 5347s than ACF 2970s). But the point is that they listened to our requests and re-ran what many of us thought were discontinued models that were unlikely to see the light of day again. Dave |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2012 11:00:23 GMT -8
Athearn really does keep a tally of requests and uses them when considering re-running particular models. I've seen this happen in two cases of undecorated kits Dave 98% of the time requests for undecorated models fall on deaf ears at Athearn. The above example is the exception and not at all indicative of Athearn's stance on undecorated models. Athearn royally screwed up the initial undecorated runs of the SW1000 and SW1500. The shorted dealers screamed so loud and bloody that Athearn quickly added undecorated models to the next production run. Today you can expect to pay $125 - $150+ for the undecorated SP version SW1500. I'd love for Athearn to do another run but know deep down that it will never happen. Walthers is another that is joined the ranks of anti-undecorated. They cancelled both the undecorated SD9's from the run that just hit the shelves a few months ago and cancelled the sound version of the SD7 from the same run. There are still some us dinosaurs that like to customize our models and do the things that are not cut from the mass produced cookie cutter. But all I need to do is see the number of decal sets being dropped from the Microscale catalog, the death of Champ and even the dropping of paint colors from Scalecoat and Floquil to realize that maybe there truly is some evidence to Athearn's and Walthers' claim that undecorated doesn't sell.  |
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Post by el3637 on Jun 26, 2012 11:26:10 GMT -8
But all I need to do is see the number of decal sets being dropped from the Microscale catalog, the death of Champ and even the dropping of paint colors from Scalecoat and Floquil to realize that maybe there truly is some evidence to Athearn's and Walthers' claim that undecorated doesn't sell. It's not that they don't sell. It's that they don't sell a lot. In any given run of 6 roadnames, undec would probably sell fewer than even the worst selling of the RTR roadnames. It is a pain to do the undecs, to communicate all of this to China, often different packaging is required, etc. Ya know what, none of that is my problem. I didn't move production to China and give up all hands-on control of the manufacturing process. I still want undecorated, unbuilt versions of my models. If the answer is no, so be it, but I am not the cause of undecs being a pain. I am part of the demand for undecs, not part of the lack-of-demand for undecs. I am not part of the problem, but I am not the whole solution. I will never be able to single handedly pay for/justify a run of undecs. I remember contacting P&G when they discontinued the only "flavor" of Downy fabric softener I could ever stand. Their response was, that flavor was dropped because "you didn't buy enough". Excuse me? I bought all they had in every store, once I realized it was being discontinued, and I bought it regularly before that. I'm not part of that "you" that doesn't buy enough of the stuff I like. When a product I like is dropped, I am the last person to blame for it being discontinued. Unfortunately it keeps happening. Speaking of which, what is the status of Detail Associates? Are they producing any product at all? Many of their items are OOS at Walthers. I have a decent stash but I'm out of some items. I have my DA parts in a bin sorted by SKU, and the easiest way to find something is to go look it up on Walthers' web site to get the SKU, then I can easily find it in my bin. But I've been noticing most of the parts I've gone fishing for in my own bin are OOS at Walthers with no ETA. The Blomberg air lines - just wire, I can do my own but they are convenient. The M5 horns (all varieties OOS). I don't use near as many DA parts as I used to but there are still a few I rely on like the all-weather cab windows - theirs looks better than the others, and they're not delrin. Andy |
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Post by drolsen on Jun 26, 2012 11:29:28 GMT -8
Athearn really does keep a tally of requests and uses them when considering re-running particular models. I've seen this happen in two cases of undecorated kits Dave 98% of the time requests for undecorated models fall on deaf ears at Athearn. The above example is the exception and not at all indicative of Athearn's stance on undecorated models. Athearn royally screwed up the initial undecorated runs of the SW1000 and SW1500. The shorted dealers screamed so loud and bloody that Athearn quickly added undecorated models to the next production run. Today you can expect to pay $125 - $150+ for the undecorated SP version SW1500. I'd love for Athearn to do another run but know deep down that it will never happen. OK, hang on, Jim. I cited two examples where they re-ran undecorated models based on customer requests, and I forgot to include the PS-2 3-bay covered hopper, which they re-released in the past year based on requests. You mentioned another undecorated model, the SW1500, that they re-ran (admittedly because they shorted the original run). So what are other 196 undecorated models that have been requested by dozens of modelers but not re-run despite the demand? The only ones I can think of that I know they've gotten a lot of requests for are the SD40-2s, and those seem to occasionally get re-run in small numbers, although not enough to meet all the demand yet. They've offered undecorated models in the initial releases of each of the Genesis F89F flat car releases, the Genesis 20K tank cars (3 different undec versions), all the SD70ACe versions, all the GP15-1 and GP15T versions, the SP cabooses, the 33K LPG tank cars, the Richmond tank cars, the shorty beer can tank cars, both versions of Landis door PCF RBLs, the GATC Airslides, etc. Many of these are still available. So how is this indicative of Athearn's stance on undecorated models? I'm not saying that some of their undecs haven't hard to get enough of in the past, but they seem to have found a much better balance in recent years. Dave |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2012 16:53:32 GMT -8
So how is this indicative of Athearn's stance on undecorated models? I'm not saying that some of their undecs haven't hard to get enough of in the past, but they seem to have found a much better balance in recent years. Dave I'm not talking about the initial runs. THE INITIAL RUN IS GENERALLY THE ONLY TIME ATHEARN RUNS UNDECORATED MODELS. I'm talking about all the subsequent runs that don't have undecorated models as part of the run. Heck, Athearn could at least OFFER the undecorated version and if reservations are not large enough then they can be cancelled and I think everyone would understand. Very very few models have EVER been offered twice in undecorated form. The SD40-2 was one of the models they've offered twice and now the 81" and 88" nose versions can bring small fortunes on e-Bay. Most undecorated Athearn models except for a few demand good money when you stumble upon one on e-Bay. So why can Atlas offer undecorated models with each production run? Surely Athearn can offer undecorated models just Atlas....right? Well at least you'd think they could.....It gets a little tiring to have to bare knuckle brawl on the internet for an undecorated model. |
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Post by drolsen on Jun 27, 2012 5:59:28 GMT -8
I'm not talking about the initial runs. THE INITIAL RUN IS GENERALLY THE ONLY TIME ATHEARN RUN UNDECORATED MODELS. I'm talking about all the subsequent runs that don't have undecorated models as part of the run. Heck, Athearn could at least OFFER the undecorated version and if reservations are not large enough then they can be cancelled and I think everyone would understand. Athearn isn't Atlas, and they obviously have different business practices. When I've talked with them, they have said that they have to be able to justify (if I recall correctly) a production run of a minimum of 50 models. It's pretty sad that they apparently can't even get that many orders sometimes. I can tell you exactly what would happen if they took orders for undecs with each production run: they wouldn't get enough orders (i.e. at least 50), and they would cancel the undecs almost every time, and people would be angry at them about undecs after each new run. I was involved in trying to drum up interest for both the ACF 2970 and FMC 5347 undec re-runs, and I encouraged people on several lists to contact Athearn about those models after Athearn told me they would consider re-running them if there was enough interest. I personally told Athearn I would order a dozen FMC 5347s if they re-ran them (which I did), and I know a number of other people sent them similar messages. The undecorated FMC 5347s sold out very quickly, but the ACF 2970s are still in stock at Horizon, so I doubt we'll see that model produced again very soon, because Athearn either overproduced them the second time, or some people that said they were interested didn't end up buying them. Athearn has had a lot of rough experiences with undecs in the past decade or so. They produced so many of the undecorated Genesis 60' box cars (back at a time when it seemed like people were still interested in painting their own) that they apparently had to give a bunch away in the end to clear out space in the warehouse. They went to the other extreme of underproducing undecs, and now, as I said, I think they've found a good balance. If you're interested in a particular model, get some people together and let Athearn know, and I bet they'll re-run it. I have no idea how Atlas does their undecorated production, but I bet they're losing money on them but just choose to continue supporting those of us who like undecs. I still see most of their undecorated models readily available from various sources except for some tank car versions, so I don't think they're selling out very fast. I know Intermountain has said that they lose money on keeping undecs available. Athearn apparently isn't as willing to lose money like other manufacturers, and I can't blame them for that. I'm just going to continue to lobby them for particular undecorated models (when the time comes) because I know from personal experience that it works. Dave |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2012 11:06:23 GMT -8
It seems really sad to me, that there are not enough people interested in undecorated models to meet a tiny number like 50. But I understand. I also can understand added cost.
It was explained to me that China doesn't like undecorated models because they have to count the parts out and bag them. It is supposed to be more labor and time intensive than sending a shell down the assembly line having the parts installed. I don't know if this is true or not, but I guess it could be.
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Post by drolsen on Jun 27, 2012 11:21:33 GMT -8
It was explained to me that China doesn't like undecorated models because they have to count the parts out and bag them. It is supposed to be more labor and time intensive than sending a shell down the assembly line having the parts installed. I don't know if this is true or not, but I guess it could be. Jim - I've heard it explained that it's simply the fact that it's a different process from the RTR models. All the RTR stuff is manufactured, assembled, painted, and packaged in the same process, but undecorated kits diverge from that process and create a separate packaging process that basically requires a different assembly line (or a separate production "batch" to account for the different sequence of packaging). So, yes, from everything I've heard, it's basically an additional challenge (and expense) to produce undecorated kits alongside the RTR models. I could be wrong, but I think Intermountain may get around this by packaging their undecorated kits in their own factory in Colorado instead of having the factory that does the assembly of RTR models do it. I'm not sure if they still do, but I believe Intermountain used to produce their parts in house and then send them to China for assembly, which is what ExactRail apparently does too. Dave |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2012 11:50:20 GMT -8
I am glad that they did the undec MoPac GP15's when the did...I feel that we won't see any more undec GP15's...so I am glad that I have an allotment of them. Especially since they came with road-specific details!!
The recently-announced Genesis GP38-2 is another subject about undecorated units. Athearn is going to offer these at a later date undec...but will apparently be a "generic version" model...without any road-specific detailing...which is fine by me, BTW.
I do have a few undec cars left...but have been really focusing my energy on GP15's...cabooses...and completing the Sergent coupler switch over for my fleet the past two years.
I have a few units left to build...but with the exceptional paint jobs on Tangent, ExactRail, Atlas Master, and Athearn Genesis stuff coming out...there is little need for me to custom paint my car fleets anymore...with the lone exception being the aforementioned cabooses. I have a couple of OMI EV cars (yes, undec) on reserve...and a few Railyard MP cabeese here as well to detail and paint.
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Post by Judge Doom on Jun 27, 2012 15:16:55 GMT -8
Is nobody a fan of buying decorated units and stripping them? Given the escalating prices, I find buying the less popular roads and stripping them is 1) easier, since one doesn't have to wait for an undec to hit the market, and 2) saves some money as you can typically pick the cheapest one off e-Bay or your LHS used shelf (no bidding wars for undecs).
The last 5 locomotives I've painted up started life as decorated units before they got a bath in 99% rubbing alcohol...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2012 15:25:36 GMT -8
Is nobody a fan of buying decorated units and stripping them? It depends on the model. Decorated Athearn locomotives have so much glue holding all the parts on, that you end destroying things before you can even think about stripping the paint. Again, Athearn with their prototype specific detailing means you'll be plugging holes in the body until the next century. If you can even get the parts off the body without doing a lot of damage. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2012 16:29:16 GMT -8
Is nobody a fan of buying decorated units and stripping them? It depends on the model. Decorated Athearn locomotives have so much glue holding all the parts on, that you end destroying things before you can even think about stripping the paint. Again, Athearn with their prototype specific detailing means you'll be plugging holes in the body until the next century. If you can even get the parts off the body without doing a lot of damage. I agree. I did order two extra MP GP38-2's (painted) but already have two cabs and interiors here on hand...I intend to paint one in Yellow/Gray...MP 2104...and the other in Blue with the buzzsaw...I will buy a couple of undecorated units for ex-Rock Island units if/when they come out. I will have to be very careful when stripping these...more than likely I will remove the fans...and the cabs in one piece...if possible...trying to keep the handrails from breaking as well...but I could always install brass stanchions...or order new handrails from Athearn...but, see...it's cheaper to wait on the undecorated units... |
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jun 27, 2012 20:27:16 GMT -8
Regarding undecorated units.
One of my questions was possibly answered. Thank you for your input Drolsen.
I had been wondering why in the world some of Walthers undecorated passenger cars and locomotives cost just as much as their fully painted counterparts! I had assumed that by leaving off the paint that there was a significant cost savings. If I'm not mistaken, that's how it was when models were manufactured in the USA; especially at the Walthers plant up until the early 90s. I still have a video showing Walthers employees actually manufacturing kits and rolling stock circa-1990. I'm sure none of those hardworking employees knew that at that time, the sun was starting to set on their jobs, sad to say.
But from what has been stated, the product process is what's affected when undecs are ordered, which unfortunately adds to the cost of production.
A bit frustrating for me as I'd like to buy more undecorated corrugated Budd and Pullman Standard streamlined cars so that I may Alclad-metalize (plate them) to my preferred appearance. I'd also enjoy obtaining some of those nice looking Walthers Milwaukee or UP E-units undecorated as the body details would be very easy to modify for ACL and SCL appearances. I dislike buying a beautiful factory painted model and having to strip it down. Seems like options become more limited for those of us wanting undecs.
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Post by drolsen on Jun 27, 2012 23:37:21 GMT -8
It depends on the model. Decorated Athearn locomotives have so much glue holding all the parts on, that you end destroying things before you can even think about stripping the paint. Again, Athearn with their prototype specific detailing means you'll be plugging holes in the body until the next century. If you can even get the parts off the body without doing a lot of damage. I agree - I've had widely varying experiences with stripping different models. I used to strip Walthers freight cars all the time - their paint seemed to just fall off in 91% alcohol, and their models were sturdy enough that you could scrub any leftover paint off the details. I always wanted to strip them and replace the heavy molded grab irons and other details with wire parts. Models these days are much more fragile. I stripped two Athearn FMC 5327 box cars a couple years ago, and the paint turned thick and sticky around the details on the ends of the car. In the process of trying to get the last of it off with a soft tooth brush, I broke several of the rungs on the fine plastic ladders. Since replacement parts are sometimes hard to come by from Athearn, I much prefer to start with undecorated kits. ExactRail models are also very hard to strip. One guy reported that all he could really get off was the lettering, so he just painted over the body color, which was fortunately roughly the same blue as the prototype he was modeling. I'm glad that ExactRail offers undecorated kits for that reason, but that particular one (the Evans 5277 box car with the full side sills) isn't available in undec form yet. Dave |
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