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Post by el3637 on Jun 28, 2012 13:01:21 GMT -8
Is nobody a fan of buying decorated units and stripping them? Doing something because I have to doesn't necessarily make me a "fan" of doing it. One of the nice things about an undecorated kit is you get to choose what parts to apply vs. which ones to substitute a possibly superior third party part for, maybe without glue boogers and crooked application. Stripping an RTR model is somewhat tedious and is prone to damage especially on a mixed media model, and you still end up with a mostly assembled model that has to be at least partially disassembled if you don't want the details exactly as they are. It's really something I'd prefer to avoid. If it's the only way to get there, I'll do it but I will always seek, and advocate the true undec kit first. Andy |
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Post by el3637 on Jun 28, 2012 13:09:55 GMT -8
The recently-announced Genesis GP38-2 is another subject about undecorated units. Athearn is going to offer these at a later date undec...but will apparently be a "generic version" model...without any road-specific detailing...which is fine by me, BTW. And they supposedly will have the parts available to build any version from your undec - at additional cost of course. I had this discussion with Mike Hopkin. They feel that offering an "all in" undec would be too costly, and one caveat being that an all-in undec of the first run would still be missing some of the future variations yet to be done. In terms of hassle/cost, I hope that it doesn't become prohibitive for them to stock the parts. The GP38-2 is kind of a trial balloon for me, because the reality is I will be buying mostly RTR versions. The N&W did not own any GP38-2s until they acquired the IT's small fleet, which is after my modeling era. My GP38-2s will all be B-fleet locos. Penn Central, Southern, etc. I've actually preordered all four Southern units from the first run, a MoPac, and an SP. Although more variations are planned, the first four roadnames showcase the versatility of the tooling, with multiple cabs, noses, walkways, fuel tanks and long hoods all represented. I think the model is a slam dunk, and I wouldn't be saying that if I hadn't held it in my hand. The day it rolls out, it will be the best factory model yet of any Southern Ry. diesel - and that's up against some fairly stiff competition from the P2K GP30. The GP30 is nice, but is missing a few Southern specifics. The GP38-2 ain't gonna have that problem from what I've seen. Athearn themselves have done a respectable job with the SD45 and SD40-2 in Southern, within the limitations of the old tooling used. The GP38-2 kinda blows that all out of the water. Andy |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2012 14:00:42 GMT -8
The recently-announced Genesis GP38-2 is another subject about undecorated units. Athearn is going to offer these at a later date undec...but will apparently be a "generic version" model...without any road-specific detailing...which is fine by me, BTW. And they supposedly will have the parts available to build any version from your undec - at additional cost of course. I had this discussion with Mike Hopkin. They feel that offering an "all in" undec would be too costly, and one caveat being that an all-in undec of the first run would still be missing some of the future variations yet to be done. In terms of hassle/cost, I hope that it doesn't become prohibitive for them to stock the parts. The GP38-2 is kind of a trial balloon for me, because the reality is I will be buying mostly RTR versions. The N&W did not own any GP38-2s until they acquired the IT's small fleet, which is after my modeling era. My GP38-2s will all be B-fleet locos. Penn Central, Southern, etc. I've actually preordered all four Southern units from the first run, a MoPac, and an SP. Although more variations are planned, the first four roadnames showcase the versatility of the tooling, with multiple cabs, noses, walkways, fuel tanks and long hoods all represented. I think the model is a slam dunk, and I wouldn't be saying that if I hadn't held it in my hand. The day it rolls out, it will be the best factory model yet of any Southern Ry. diesel - and that's up against some fairly stiff competition from the P2K GP30. The GP30 is nice, but is missing a few Southern specifics. The GP38-2 ain't gonna have that problem from what I've seen. Athearn themselves have done a respectable job with the SD45 and SD40-2 in Southern, within the limitations of the old tooling used. The GP38-2 kinda blows that all out of the water. Andy I am most glad to hear that, Andy...How did the paint jobs look overall? I am for the "all-in" undecorated units...but understand where Athearn is coming from...based on what versions are out when it's offered. I think this series will be the end-all-be-all series for the Dash two series...My original thinking was to get two extra units...and now I am thinking about waiting to see what else is coming. My hope is the undecs come sooner than later, however...Maybe in the next run. |
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jun 29, 2012 6:30:44 GMT -8
Just sharing thoughts.........please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
I wonder now if there would be at least 50 modelers that would be willing to purchase an Athearn RTR FRISCO SD45. I've read of modelers still interested in this unit just because of the "L-windshield", even if they're not modeling the Frisco. Of course, there are the modelers who model the Frisco and the guys like me that model the railroads that Frisco units often roamed around on.
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On the Walthers side regarding Undec E-units....
If Walthers doesn't plan to run any E7s and E8s in SAL, ACL, SCL, or Southern, I know a number of southeastern modelers that would be willing to buy undecorated HO E-units if made available. There is still strong interest in passenger trains such as the Silver Meteor, Silver Star, The Silver Comet, The Southwind, The Champion, The Florida Special, Southern Crescent, The Southerner, The Tennessean........all hauled by EMD E-units.
If 50 or 75 is the "minimum number" for Walthers to recoup its investment, then I honestly believe that they'd sell out, especially E7s. What has our attention is that the nose and body contour of the Walthers P2K E-units are a significant improvement over the 1990s Life Like P2K E-units.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2012 8:30:54 GMT -8
Just sharing thoughts.........please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.I wonder now if there would be at least 50 modelers that would be willing to purchase an Athearn RTR FRISCO SD45. I've read of modelers still interested in this unit just because of the "L-windshield", even if they're not modeling the Frisco. Of course, there are the modelers who model the Frisco and the guys like me that model the railroads that Frisco units often roamed around on. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've been told that for decorated runs the minimum per road number is 500. Too many parts for just a run of 50. On the Walthers side regarding Undec E-units....If Walthers doesn't plan to run any E7s and E8s in SAL, ACL, SCL, or Southern, I know a number of southeastern modelers that would be willing to buy undecorated HO E-units if made available. There is still strong interest in passenger trains such as the Silver Meteor, Silver Star, The Silver Comet, The Southwind, The Champion, The Florida Special, Southern Crescent, The Southerner, The Tennessean........all hauled by EMD E-units. If 50 or 75 is the "minimum number" for Walthers to recoup its investment, then I honestly believe that they'd sell out, especially E7s. What has our attention is that the nose and body contour of the Walthers P2K E-units are a significant improvement over the 1990s Life Like P2K E-units.
I asked my dealer about undecorated E8/9's with the new tooling, who in turn asked his Walthers rep if Walthers has plans to offer undecorated E's. The answer was a absolute NO. If you are interested in a particular road name to write or e-mail Walthers and they may consider it for a future release. Well la-dee-dah......  I recently bought one of the new Walthers Amtrak E8's and hope like heck that I can get it disassembled so I can re-paint it. If it appears to be too well glued together, then I will be forced to sell it and forget about the model I wanted to build. I also have one of the Southern Pacific E9 6051 models on order, which I want to re-paint. But if the Amtrak which I should have in my grubby little hands early next week is put together like the USS Missouri, I will cancel my reservation for the SP 6051 model and look for other things to build. |
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Post by drolsen on Jun 29, 2012 9:56:01 GMT -8
I recently bought one of the new Walthers Amtrak E8's and hope like heck that I can get it disassembled so I can re-paint it. If it appears to be too well glued together, then I will be forced to sell it and forget about the model I wanted to build. I forgot to mention this earlier in the post about stripping factory-painted models, but an article in Model Railroader a while back pointed out that (at the time) it was actually easier to disassembled painted Walthers models, because Walthers had a practice of painting the parts before assembly and then gluing them together. When you stripped the paint, many of the joints fell apart as the paint surrounding the glue fell off the model. Because their undecorated RTR models were unpainted but assembled with glue, they were much more difficult to disassembled than a stripped, factory-painted model. I found that to be the case myself, so if I ever wanted to rebuild a RTR Walthers freight car, I would buy a cheap painted one instead of an undec and strip it. I have a feeling they've probably changed that practice now that (I think) their models are being assembled in China at the same factory that does everything else, but I'm very interested to hear how your project goes. Dave |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2012 4:51:38 GMT -8
I can strip down a Proto brown, blue or grey box, pre-Proto by Walthers, and not break any of the important parts. Stuff like the P2K grab irons and lift rings are expendable. Not so with the "Proto by Walthers" stuff. Like their brethren at Athearn.....they've found the glue bottle! Unlike their compatriots at Athearn, their glue work is not too good and they miss gluing some stuff, a small victory. I had bought a set of the latest Proto by Walthers Pennsylvania E8's for project fodder. What I didn't take into account was the PRR Trainphone antenna, which I counted 27 mount holes. The shell had more holes drilled in it than if had been shot up by a Tommy gun! My concern in stripping down these units is the windows. That Walthers factory has done a GOOD job of making sure those windows don't fall out in the next 100 years. The problem is when Walthers re-tooled the E8/9 they changed all the windows and we all know that Walthers has NO parts. Walthers stance on the lack of parts makes working with their decorated models, since they don't feel undecorated sells anymore, very difficult should you break a part. I'll see how the Amtrak unit, which shouldn't have as many holes as Swiss cheese, is put together. Personally, I think I'm spitting up hill and its rolling back on my shoes......  |
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Post by el3637 on Jun 30, 2012 19:12:58 GMT -8
I am most glad to hear that, Andy...How did the paint jobs look overall? IMO the Southern looked as good as anybody's RTR that I've seen so far, allowing for the fact that it had been through the mixer in between the time I saw it at Rosemont in October and when I saw it again at the Cincinnati WGH a few months later. The GP38-2 is done right, it's what should have been done with the GP7 and GP9 - start from scratch, working strictly off the prototype. The only thing I'd have done differently on the GP38-2 is that I would find a way to make the all-in undec, and I'd have found a way to use the classic Munson Blombergs and Blomberg-Ms. The original Blombergs have had two backs made - the original bluebox design, and a modified back for the Genesis F units. But for the GP7/9 and the GP38-2 (whether Blombergs or Blomberg-M) they tooled new sideframes. I thought I spotted this when the first geeps were released, but I didn't buy one so I couldn't do a fair comparison. Mike confirmed that they did indeed make new ones, and IMO they are probably the second best Blombergs out there (although I'm still rather fond of Kato's GP35 truck as a 2nd best). The originals will continue to be available on Genesis Fs and on the bluebox line for the foreseeable future. Which is good because I still have Atlas trucks to Banna-convert as well as a few Protos. I just used up 4 sets on my Southern GP30s. Andy |
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Post by onequiknova on Jun 30, 2012 19:20:47 GMT -8
Any idea what kind of glue Walthers is using? Perhaps a bottle of ACC debonder would help?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 3:29:50 GMT -8
Any idea what kind of glue Walthers is using? Perhaps a bottle of ACC debonder would help? I can tell you its definitely not CA. When Athearn, who does use CA lays down a puddle, it hazes the area around the glue. The Walthers models do not have any hazing. I believe they are using an epoxy blend. The Walthers glue looks like the two hour epoxy recommended by Highliners to affix the metal parts to the plastic parts. Clear and glossy, but rock hard. CA will chip off a surface, this stuff holds the surface and doesn't budge. I can also tell you it is frickin' hard and tough as steel. I broke knife blades trying to remove a small amount |
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Post by drolsen on Jul 1, 2012 3:41:43 GMT -8
I think this series will be the end-all-be-all series for the Dash two series... I'm going to reserve judgment until I find out if they're going to offer proper blanked-out classlights as an option, something no manufacturer has done with EMD models yet, instead of just painting over the classlights, which they have in the past for post-'80s paint schemes. I'm not holding my breath. Dave |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 6:26:04 GMT -8
I think this series will be the end-all-be-all series for the Dash two series... I'm going to reserve judgment until I find out if they're going to offer proper blanked-out classlights as an option, something no manufacturer has done with EMD models yet, instead of just painting over the classlights, which they have in the past for post-'80s paint schemes. I'm not holding my breath. Dave The Highliners F-unit body shell instruction sheet states "Body shell kits can build any version of the F2, F3, F5, F7 or F9" Well any as-built version. Highliners does not have panels to model an F-unit that has had all or some of its porthole windows removed during rebuilding. It doesn't have roof panels that have the area of the dynamic brake fan plated over. The doors on the shell kit are not accurate for late production F7's and all F9's. In other words, the body shell that is supposed to be the holy grail of bodies has some very obvious warts! As far as the Genesis GP38-2 and class light removal....... Athearn would need to tool at least three different noses, times 4 (81" and 88", AT&SF nose headlight & standard EMD nose headlight and or plated over opening of nose headlight). 1. Class lights removed, but gasket remains and steel plate inserted where light mounted. www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=8759342. Class light and gasket removed and a sloppy piece of plate steel welded over the opening. www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1464903Which also leads us to do you want square patches or round patches?  3. Class light and gasket removed, patch plate flush mounted in nose with ground wells. The nose looks like it never had class lights. In fact the nose looks like it was built without class lights. www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=8531034. Class light and gasket removed and nice neat round plates bolted in place of the light. www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2624515. CLASS LIGHT REMAINS!!!!! www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1325510 |
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Post by onequiknova on Jul 1, 2012 7:21:47 GMT -8
Athearn should take a page from the Cannon nose and have the class lights a separate part . That way they can reproduce most of those variations without tooling an entire nose.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 11:03:09 GMT -8
Athearn should take a page from the Cannon nose and have the class lights a separate part . That way they can reproduce most of those variations without tooling an entire nose. Sometimes what is so obvious to the model railroader seems to be lost on the company and person cutting the tooling......  |
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Post by carrman on Jul 1, 2012 15:40:02 GMT -8
They wont have to tool entirely new noses, just different inserts for the nose fronts.
Dave
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