jdl56
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Posts: 24
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Post by jdl56 on Aug 4, 2014 18:18:46 GMT -8
Drone technology is taking railfanning to a whole new level--about 1/4 mile high, to be exact. I've posted links to a couple of drone's-eye railfan videos--one of the Cumbres & Toltec and one of NS in Tennessee. Model railroaders have taken helicopter/drone photos of our layouts forever. Now people who railfan the prototype can do the same thing. Find the post on my blog at cprailmmsub.blogspot.ca/2014/08/drones-taking-railfanning-to-whole-new.htmlJohn Longhurst, Winnipeg |
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Post by fr8kar on Aug 5, 2014 7:25:28 GMT -8
I've watched numerous drone railfanning (and other types of fanning) videos on youtube. It really brings a whole new dimension to trainwatching. I also spent some time on a quadcopter forum and a camera forum trying to figure out what it would cost to get started. Not much more than a consist of sound-equipped diesels.
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Post by atsfan on Aug 5, 2014 9:03:20 GMT -8
I have a basic one.
Makes access very easy.
Be careful you don't accidentally lose an expensive rig somewhere you can't get into to retrieve.
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Post by calzephyr on Aug 18, 2014 15:37:06 GMT -8
I have a basic one. Makes access very easy. Be careful you don't accidentally lose an expensive rig somewhere you can't get into to retrieve. That could happen if it was landed in an area that is restricted, but they should return to the GPS coordinates if contact is lost or battery power gets below a certain percentage. Larry |
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Post by bluedash2 on Aug 18, 2014 16:03:34 GMT -8
I prefer going trackside and seeing it for myself. How many more devices will be invented to do things for us? One of these days will have nothing left to do, lol...
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Post by Brakie on Aug 18, 2014 16:41:36 GMT -8
I prefer going trackside and seeing it for myself. How many more devices will be invented to do things for us? One of these days will have nothing left to do, lol... When I started railfaning at age 7 in the 50s I learn to find a spot between signals since that was the only warning we had that a train was approaching now there is ATCS on electronic devices that shows a train 40 miles away in either direction,scanners,live scanner feeds etc. |
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Post by fr8kar on Aug 19, 2014 11:21:59 GMT -8
I prefer going trackside and seeing it for myself. How many more devices will be invented to do things for us? One of these days will have nothing left to do, lol... I don't view these devices as a way of railfanning without being there, although I suppose you could do that. I don't really watch many rail videos, whether on Youtube or DVD, either. I see these drones primarily as a way of railfanning from a high angle in areas where no bridge exists. |
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Post by riogrande on Aug 21, 2014 7:08:40 GMT -8
I imagine those toys will be out of my price range for a good while yet. And I'm sure we'll be reading about incidents involving them like the one I read about the drone interfering with fire fighting efforts a couple weeks ago. Drones are going to cause some chaos for a while until rules and regulations come into maturation.
Anyway, for me drones are kind of too late since I would need a time machine to get the drone record video I would like most to watch. To quote a few folks on Train Orders, "it's all crap now". I do get out and watch trains a little now and then but it certainly isn't the experience I recall from my earlier years.
fr8kar mentioned something important to the experience. It's the drama of huge machines of steel, the earth shaking, the sounds etc. that really make watching trains "in person" a visceral thing, something that is far more than just visually cool. Which is probably the only reason I still do watch the "it's all crap now" trains that I do watch! =P
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Post by curtmc on Aug 23, 2014 7:52:53 GMT -8
Drones make for great target practice!!!
Seriously, I expect the days of unlimited (or even limited) drone use are numbered as many cities and states look into outlawing them on the grounds of public safety (and privacy). Here in VA we have a few cities that have already outlawed them (except by federal forces of course) and the state is working on it.
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Post by calzephyr on Aug 28, 2014 6:23:43 GMT -8
I prefer going trackside and seeing it for myself. How many more devices will be invented to do things for us? One of these days will have nothing left to do, lol... The great thing about using the quadcopter is you get to stand trackside and still watch the train in the normal way while getting some great video or pictures from above the scene. The problem I noted about the sound is the copter is the only thing that is heard and the sound must be added by a recording on the ground. Larry |
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Post by fr8kar on Aug 28, 2014 12:04:42 GMT -8
Drones make for great target practice!!! Seriously, I expect the days of unlimited (or even limited) drone use are numbered as many cities and states look into outlawing them on the grounds of public safety (and privacy). Here in VA we have a few cities that have already outlawed them (except by federal forces of course) and the state is working on it. I live in Texas. I'm pretty sure that if you can open carry a machine gun in a shopping mall, you won't have to worry about your toy quadcopter getting confiscated. |
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Post by curtmc on Aug 28, 2014 17:26:01 GMT -8
Two totally different issues there fr8kar... Right to carry gun (bear arms) is specifically voiced in Constitution (2nd amendment), whereas right to privacy - though not mentioned in the Constitution - has been decided by US Supreme Court as being supported by several of the amendments... In Texas I would not be surprised if it were an assumed right to shoot down a non-military drone especially if it were over ones land (trespassing) or posed a perceived threat of harm.
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Post by atsfan on Aug 29, 2014 4:35:57 GMT -8
Drones make for great target practice!!! Seriously, I expect the days of unlimited (or even limited) drone use are numbered as many cities and states look into outlawing them on the grounds of public safety (and privacy). Here in VA we have a few cities that have already outlawed them (except by federal forces of course) and the state is working on it. Shooting the air at a drone is easily reckless discharge of a firearm, for starters. |
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Post by atsfan on Aug 29, 2014 4:40:04 GMT -8
Two totally different issues there fr8kar... Right to carry gun (bear arms) is specifically voiced in Constitution (2nd amendment), whereas right to privacy - though not mentioned in the Constitution - has been decided by US Supreme Court as being supported by several of the amendments... In Texas I would not be surprised if it were an assumed right to shoot down a non-military drone especially if it were over ones land (trespassing) or posed a perceived threat of harm. You are completely wrong. We get it you don't like them. Blasting them out of the sky with a rifle is a violation of many laws governing firearms. You don't know Texas laws. Amazing you are pushing for people to just shoot at them. Good luck anyway as the one I have is small, quiet, fast, and you would never be able to see it let alone shoot it down. Besides we are talking rail fanning and you bring up shooting them down with a gun? They are great for getting pictures of trains from places people can't get to. |
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Post by fr8kar on Aug 29, 2014 10:13:01 GMT -8
Two totally different issues there fr8kar... Right to carry gun (bear arms) is specifically voiced in Constitution (2nd amendment), whereas right to privacy - though not mentioned in the Constitution - has been decided by US Supreme Court as being supported by several of the amendments... In Texas I would not be surprised if it were an assumed right to shoot down a non-military drone especially if it were over ones land (trespassing) or posed a perceived threat of harm. Thanks for the civics lesson, Curt! As usual, your insight is very valuable. In this case we're treated to your expertise on the US Constitution, US case law and for a bonus treat, you've opined on the application of the Castle Doctrine in Texas. Brilliant! Say, I got a parking ticket a few weeks ago. Think you can get me out of it? Oh, you're not an attorney? All I ask of anyone is that they please don't shoot down the Amazon drone delivering my trains. That would be a bummer. P.S. In case it's not completely clear, this is called humor. |
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Post by curtmc on Aug 31, 2014 20:51:13 GMT -8
Actually fr8kar and Frank, I guess you failed to recognize that I was being humorous when speaking of shooting them down in my target practice comment... Although I did hear about one person shooting one down and since it was over his land he was not charged with anything (after all, in most of the US a land owner has the rights to shoot a firearm on their property).
Just be aware that probably within 2-3 years drones are probably going to be outlawed in many areas... Especially after DHS realizes their potentially uses for terrorist activities. After that I suspect drone operators will be seen as potential terrorists.
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Post by jlwii2000 on Sept 2, 2014 19:05:41 GMT -8
Actually fr8kar and Frank, I guess you failed to recognize that I was being humorous when speaking of shooting them down in my target practice comment... Although I did hear about one person shooting one down and since it was over his land he was not charged with anything (after all, in most of the US a land owner has the rights to shoot a firearm on their property). Just be aware that probably within 2-3 years drones are probably going to be outlawed in many areas... Especially after DHS realizes their potentially uses for terrorist activities. After that I suspect drone operators will be seen as potential terrorists.
I agree with Curt on this one. I'm hearing buzz around my day job that private drone traffic will be severely limited in the next few years by multiple states. Some states may be a little slower than others.
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Post by atsfan on Sept 3, 2014 11:58:21 GMT -8
Actually fr8kar and Frank, I guess you failed to recognize that I was being humorous when speaking of shooting them down in my target practice comment... Although I did hear about one person shooting one down and since it was over his land he was not charged with anything (after all, in most of the US a land owner has the rights to shoot a firearm on their property). Just be aware that probably within 2-3 years drones are probably going to be outlawed in many areas... Especially after DHS realizes their potentially uses for terrorist activities. After that I suspect drone operators will be seen as potential terrorists.
I agree with Curt on this one. I'm hearing buzz around my day job that private drone traffic will be severely limited in the next few years by multiple states. Some states may be a little slower than others.
Depends on what drone means. The four prop camera holders like i have are no different than kites or rc planes. They are not going to be "banned" despite people saying so. Or shot down with guns which is a felony discharge and people who post here they will do it could not hit one if they tried and may not even own a firearm. Now, what the FAA calls a drone is an unpiloted airplane. Like the USAF predator. Those are different. And all of the people cheering on banning or shooting at them will they still do so if their wishes come true and then only the police have them? Good luck then. |
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Post by mlehman on Sept 3, 2014 19:01:03 GMT -8
Since I live in the RC Capital of the US -- Horizon, Great Planes, and others are headquartered here -- maybe I've heard more than most about some of these issues. Just my opinion here...
Airspace tends to be a federal issue. Certain states may try to take action in this area, but such initiatives will tend to be subject to legal pushback by both the FAA and anyone charged under such state laws. Who knows where that'll end for those who might be charged, but I suspect the FAA will have final say in this area.
The definition of a "drone" is a big part of whatever regulations apply. How exactly is that different from a perfectly legal RC aircraft? Because without a clear definition, you're going to have a bunch of RC manufacturers, dealers and customers hopping mad -- and likely with some legal ammunition to shoot back. RC aircraft are and have been legal for decades. Whatever form a drone takes, unless the legal definition clearly distinguishes between the two it's going to be on shaky legal ground.
IIRC correctly, the FAA temporary regs/restrictions use weight to define the difference between a hobbyist RC aircraft and a commericial drone. I suspect the final form of the regs will follow that same path, at least in part. Why? The primary danger to other aircraft, the FAA's main concern, is collision. It doesn't take a very large object hitting at several hundred NMPH to bring down a plane if it hits a particularly sensitive spot. Another defining factor/requirement might be a requirement for some sort of GPS-based reporting and/or deconflicting system. Drones already can "return home" based on GPS and commercial aircraft have been required to have an anti-collision system for some time now. Whether the FAA feels it can force that technical leap is a different matter, but odds are it will be able to do so for commercial drones, if it is determined the technology is practical.
As for shooting down drones, even over your own property, abundant caution is in order. Most states have laws against the discharge of firearms toward aircraft. These don't specify whether the aircraft is piloted or not. Beside that, the government tends to want to reserve a monopoly on the use of force to itself. I suspect the FAA wouldn't be real happy about people shooting down drones either and there is certainly federal law about discharge of firearms towards aircraft. Caution is in order here, whatever one believes about their own rights in such a situation.
Finally, whatever weight definition is adopted, it will likely leave an area for RC hobbyists to continue to use with little to no restrictions. Given the lightweight of cameras, etc, this will not solve things for those who feel drones are being used to invade their privacy, so I'd expect such conflicts over privacy to continue.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 7:29:03 GMT -8
There was chatter on the news a few months ago here in Wisconsin about drones. My understanding of the issue after listening to the report is the FAA, Homeland Security and the individual states are scrambling to come up with regulations of where, when, how large, range, etc. to govern drones.
Many of us are aware after 9/11 that railroads have at times taken some draconian measures when it comes to security. I shall assume that in interest of terror and national security, that even hobby drones will fall under some restrictions when it comes to transportation areas. That is if some get their ways.
The drone is a perfect example of technology running about six furlongs ahead of the law. By the time the various Federal agencies and states agencies get a set of parameters in place for today's technology, those laws may be obsolete, because of the technology changing everyday.
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Sept 4, 2014 7:59:17 GMT -8
"Drones" are another creation of the media to take the hobby flying model to a whole new level of perceived evil neither planned nor imagined by their makers. The 'problem' if there really is any is in the activity of folks with little or no common sense in how their operate their aircraft, copters or other flying devices. As far as hobbyists raising suspicion from the authorities, look at some of the letters on this page of items sent to different businesses in the country. publicintelligence.net/fbi-suspicious-activity-reporting-flyers/ Look specifically at the one for hobby stores. |
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Post by atsfan on Sept 4, 2014 17:47:01 GMT -8
"Drones" are another creation of the media to take the hobby flying model to a whole new level of perceived evil neither planned nor imagined by their makers. The 'problem' if there really is any is in the activity of folks with little or no common sense in how their operate their aircraft, copters or other flying devices. As far as hobbyists raising suspicion from the authorities, look at some of the letters on this page of items sent to different businesses in the country. publicintelligence.net/fbi-suspicious-activity-reporting-flyers/ Look specifically at the one for hobby stores. People here want them banned Scary because many people want train watching also banned |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 3:48:39 GMT -8
Scary because many people want train watching also banned Train watching mostly photography has been under the "gun" in some areas and some railroads for decades. Just ask anyone trying to take photos of Belt Railway of Chicago trains in the 1980's...from public property! 9/11 has taken the fear that "rail fans" are some super cell of terrorists to new heights of stupidity. Another nail in the rail fan coffin is the behavior by a select few around the tracks. Some of it is dangerous and some of it is inane. Such as the viral videos of the morons shrieking like they're having their skin removed when a train approaches. Those videos do so much harm to the reputation of the hobby of train watching, photography and model railroading, because the main stream media thinks that is how all rail enthusiasts behave. My biggest fear of using drones for photography is your going to have some yahoo flying it into someplace like a shop interior, locomotive cab interior or other place where it just doesn't belong or someone will loose control and crash the thing causing some catastrophe. At which time, the knee jerk reaction of railroads, police and the government will be to ban the drones around all railroad property, there by killing it for the responsible majority. |
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Post by mlehman on Sept 5, 2014 6:46:09 GMT -8
...the knee jerk reaction of railroads, police and the government will be to ban the drones around all railroad property... Technically, that's already the case. Currently, with the temporary ban in place, ommercial drone use is supposed to be restricted to the owner's property. Around here, with all the RC talent floating around, at least one ag drone start-up came from people already in the RC aircraft industry. Their big problem right now? They have to sell the farmer on it, because the farmer has to own it to fly over his land. Starting at a cool $250000 and up, that's like needing to buy another combine, so is still hard to stomach by many farmers, who are waiting to see commercial drones succeed before they take such a bracing dip in their pool of capital. Which doesn't mean there aren't commercial drones flying. Contractors operate in a somewhat gray area here. Everyone has seen the wedding or home for sale that is drone videoed. But those are all cases where the property owner wants the drone on their property for some reason. On the other hand, RRs would probably prefer not to have drones pacing alongside stack train locos or flying between tracks full of freight cars. And almost all RR track, yards, etc is private property. I can easily see the RRs prohibiting drone use over their property. Shutting it down entirely will likely not be possible, but I can see some folks losing some expensive new drones if they're not cautious in their use. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 11:30:22 GMT -8
...the knee jerk reaction of railroads, police and the government will be to ban the drones around all railroad property... Technically, that's already the case. Currently, with the temporary ban in place, ommercial drone use is supposed to be restricted to the owner's property. Around here, with all the RC talent floating around, at least one ag drone start-up came from people already in the RC aircraft industry. Their big problem right now? They have to sell the farmer on it, because the farmer has to own it to fly over his land. Starting at a cool $250000 and up, that's like needing to buy another combine, so is still hard to stomach by many farmers, who are waiting to see commercial drones succeed before they take such a bracing dip in their pool of capital. Which doesn't mean there aren't commercial drones flying. Contractors operate in a somewhat gray area here. Everyone has seen the wedding or home for sale that is drone videoed. But those are all cases where the property owner wants the drone on their property for some reason. On the other hand, RRs would probably prefer not to have drones pacing alongside stack train locos or flying between tracks full of freight cars. And almost all RR track, yards, etc is private property. I can easily see the RRs prohibiting drone use over their property. Shutting it down entirely will likely not be possible, but I can see some folks losing some expensive new drones if they're not cautious in their use. Like your Amtrak droning, you're putting out bogus numbers. Horizon Precision makes a number of drones specifically for agricultural use horizonprecision.comPrice on the 5501 model starts at $13,000, or about 1/19th your $250,000. s orders.fertilizerdealer.com/itemFiles/ASP%205501.pdf |
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Post by atsfan on Sept 5, 2014 12:08:27 GMT -8
Technically, that's already the case. Currently, with the temporary ban in place, ommercial drone use is supposed to be restricted to the owner's property. Around here, with all the RC talent floating around, at least one ag drone start-up came from people already in the RC aircraft industry. Their big problem right now? They have to sell the farmer on it, because the farmer has to own it to fly over his land. Starting at a cool $250000 and up, that's like needing to buy another combine, so is still hard to stomach by many farmers, who are waiting to see commercial drones succeed before they take such a bracing dip in their pool of capital. Which doesn't mean there aren't commercial drones flying. Contractors operate in a somewhat gray area here. Everyone has seen the wedding or home for sale that is drone videoed. But those are all cases where the property owner wants the drone on their property for some reason. On the other hand, RRs would probably prefer not to have drones pacing alongside stack train locos or flying between tracks full of freight cars. And almost all RR track, yards, etc is private property. I can easily see the RRs prohibiting drone use over their property. Shutting it down entirely will likely not be possible, but I can see some folks losing some expensive new drones if they're not cautious in their use. Like your Amtrak droning, you're putting out bogus numbers. Horizon Precision makes a number of drones specifically for agricultural use horizonprecision.comPrice on the 5501 model starts at $13,000, or about 1/19th your $250,000. s orders.fertilizerdealer.com/itemFiles/ASP%205501.pdfMost "drones" used for train watching a small go pro holding electric devices. I could fly mine 30 feet over your head and you would not know it is there. Now people here say you are going to fly one into a locomotive cab and cause a derailment? We are not talking hellfire armed predators here. |
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Post by mlehman on Sept 5, 2014 13:05:53 GMT -8
Ease up pardner, you're no mindreader. I was talking more like flying tractor by someone who LEFT Horizon, not a fancy version of a camera drone by Horizon. Pic I saw was definitely out of the hobbyist category, in fact didn't seem all that much smaller than a Hughes 500 helo. Designed to spray, dust, etc, i.e. could carry a significant payload. I'd dig out the paper from several months ago for more details, but I've got other priorities than warming your bottle so the milk is just the right temp... |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 14:13:39 GMT -8
Sure Mike, it's always someone else who's wrong. I've been a ralroader for 30+ years, you're the type of railfan the professionals roll their eyes at. Just a foamer with little knowlege, a keyboard, and a time on his hands. Having worked at rail jobs from switchman to exec, I'd estimate that between 10 - 20 percent of railroaders could be considered "railfans" of some sort, from "liking trains" as a kid to active photography, writing, & modeling. It varies depending on the job, location, etc. But few of them let it be known to their fellow railroaders. It's just not commonly done. Almost no one talks it up at work. There have been some big exceptions, with a few top-level rails making it public. The Amrak San Diegan "product line manager" had an HO layout in his office. A superintendent at the last RR I worked at was well-known as a modeler & railfan. There's a few pros on the forum here... but by-and-large, most railroaders keep it quiet. Why? Because, like it or not, at the railroad, foamers and modelers have a bad reputation (you know what I'm talking about...). The good get lumped in with the bad, but that's life. Especially for non-agreement employees like C&Es, letting it be known that you "like trains" will get you funny looks, at least from some other employees. And railroaders also worry that railfan-type employees will become distracted by other equipment, ROW, etc and not focus on their job & safety issues. If you are a railfan and are looking to get hired by a railroad, keep your mouth shut until probation is over. Railfans with the know-it-all attitude would never be hired. Q for the other railroaders on the board, do you let it be known at work that you are a railfan and/or modeler? |
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Post by peoriaman on Sept 5, 2014 16:41:32 GMT -8
Wow this thread sure took a turn for the weird now didn't it?
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Post by atsfan on Sept 5, 2014 18:59:04 GMT -8
Sure Mike, it's always someone else who's wrong. I've been a ralroader for 30+ years, you're the type of railfan the professionals roll their eyes at. Just a foamer with little knowlege, a keyboard, and a time on his hands. Having worked at rail jobs from switchman to exec, I'd estimate that between 10 - 20 percent of railroaders could be considered "railfans" of some sort, from "liking trains" as a kid to active photography, writing, & modeling. It varies depending on the job, location, etc. But few of them let it be known to their fellow railroaders. It's just not commonly done. Almost no one talks it up at work. There have been some big exceptions, with a few top-level rails making it public. The Amrak San Diegan "product line manager" had an HO layout in his office. A superintendent at the last RR I worked at was well-known as a modeler & railfan. There's a few pros on the forum here... but by-and-large, most railroaders keep it quiet. Why? Because, like it or not, at the railroad, foamers and modelers have a bad reputation (you know what I'm talking about...). The good get lumped in with the bad, but that's life. Especially for non-agreement employees like C&Es, letting it be known that you "like trains" will get you funny looks, at least from some other employees. And railroaders also worry that railfan-type employees will become distracted by other equipment, ROW, etc and not focus on their job & safety issues. If you are a railfan and are looking to get hired by a railroad, keep your mouth shut until probation is over. Railfans with the know-it-all attitude would never be hired. Q for the other railroaders on the board, do you let it be known at work that you are a railfan and/or modeler? Interesting profession. We are considering hiring you to work on trains. Do you like trains? Why yes I do. Never mind, we hate people who like trains. |
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