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Post by atsfan on Sept 5, 2014 19:01:45 GMT -8
Ease up pardner, you're no mindreader. I was talking more like flying tractor by someone who LEFT Horizon, not a fancy version of a camera drone by Horizon. Pic I saw was definitely out of the hobbyist category, in fact didn't seem all that much smaller than a Hughes 500 helo. Designed to spray, dust, etc, i.e. could carry a significant payload. I'd dig out the paper from several months ago for more details, but I've got other priorities than warming your bottle so the milk is just the right temp... Sure Mike, it's always someone else who's wrong. I've been a ralroader for 30+ years, you're the type of railfan the professionals roll their eyes at. Just a foamer with little knowlege, a keyboard, and a time on his hands. So a remote control crop duster is now the equal of a go pro camera small helo? Wow. I bet the farmers won't mind the posters here the who will break out the AK and blaster their multi hundred thousand dollar investment out of the sky..... |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 19:54:24 GMT -8
Having worked at rail jobs from switchman to exec, I'd estimate that between 10 - 20 percent of railroaders could be considered "railfans" of some sort, from "liking trains" as a kid to active photography, writing, & modeling. It varies depending on the job, location, etc. But few of them let it be known to their fellow railroaders. It's just not commonly done. Almost no one talks it up at work. There have been some big exceptions, with a few top-level rails making it public. The Amrak San Diegan "product line manager" had an HO layout in his office. A superintendent at the last RR I worked at was well-known as a modeler & railfan. There's a few pros on the forum here... but by-and-large, most railroaders keep it quiet. Why? Because, like it or not, at the railroad, foamers and modelers have a bad reputation (you know what I'm talking about...). The good get lumped in with the bad, but that's life. Especially for non-agreement employees like C&Es, letting it be known that you "like trains" will get you funny looks, at least from some other employees. And railroaders also worry that railfan-type employees will become distracted by other equipment, ROW, etc and not focus on their job & safety issues. If you are a railfan and are looking to get hired by a railroad, keep your mouth shut until probation is over. Railfans with the know-it-all attitude would never be hired. Q for the other railroaders on the board, do you let it be known at work that you are a railfan and/or modeler? Interesting profession. We are considering hiring you to work on trains. Do you like trains? Why yes I do. Never mind, we hate people who like trains. Thus driving home my point.... |
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Post by fr8kar on Sept 5, 2014 22:03:41 GMT -8
Q for the other railroaders on the board, do you let it be known at work that you are a railfan and/or modeler? Nope. Pretty much everyone has either worked with a foamer, had one in conductor class or heard stories about how dangerous they are. They rarely make it through the derail period because they are focused on which phase Dash 8 they are looking at instead of protecting the shove or something like that. Any inkling that you're interested in the equipment you're moving and you're identified as a danger to yourself and those around you. The sad part is that prejudice is on the money most of the time. I have a couple model railroad friends who also work for another railroad. And it turns out two other guys I work with (one conductor, one engineer) are modelers. I guess we can spot each other pretty easily. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 22:38:11 GMT -8
Q for the other railroaders on the board, do you let it be known at work that you are a railfan and/or modeler? Nope. Pretty much everyone has either worked with a foamer, had one in conductor class or heard stories about how dangerous they are. They rarely make it through the derail period because they are focused on which phase Dash 8 they are looking at instead of protecting the shove or something like that. Any inkling that you're interested in the equipment you're moving and you're identified as a danger to yourself and those around you. The sad part is that prejudice is on the money most of the time. I have a couple model railroad friends who also work for another railroad. And it turns out two other guys I work with (one conductor, one engineer) are modelers. I guess we can spot each other pretty easily. I agree with all your points. I didn't mention that the superintendent-modeler I worked with was mocked by most of the C&Es and some of the management behind his back, unfairly so. He was an ok manager that was able to keep his hobby & work separate, like you & I would do. I worked with a senior RR civil engineer about once a week for 7-8 years and I never knew he was a modeler & very knowledgeable rail historian 'till I ran into him at a historical society convention after he retired. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2014 5:29:10 GMT -8
Q for the other railroaders on the board, do you let it be known at work that you are a railfan and/or modeler? Nope. Pretty much everyone has either worked with a foamer, had one in conductor class or heard stories about how dangerous they are. They rarely make it through the derail period because they are focused on which phase Dash 8 they are looking at instead of protecting the shove or something like that. Any inkling that you're interested in the equipment you're moving and you're identified as a danger to yourself and those around you. The sad part is that prejudice is on the money most of the time. I have a couple model railroad friends who also work for another railroad. And it turns out two other guys I work with (one conductor, one engineer) are modelers. I guess we can spot each other pretty easily. In 1995, I was a little concerned about the path of my then current employer. So, I had ten years under my belt as a volunteer at the Illinois Railway Museum and wanted a career change. The hiring process for a very large railroad with yellow and gray diesels, actually it was the final days of a railroad with yellow and green diesels, before the take over. In the Chicago area, the hiring process started at the Illinois Job Service. Job Service showed us prospective newbies a video tape of railroad work, filmed at IRM, ironic. We then took some test to weed out some of the candidates. I month or two later I get a call from Job Service to report to the yard office of the yellow and green railroad in Melrose Park, Illinois. I was also strictly instructed NEVER EVER let ANYONE at the railroad know you like trains.......NEVER! If you do you will never be hired!
Even without my time at IRM and my models, I knew something about railroading. My dad's best friend was a long time employee of the Rock Island, my cousin was a long time employee of the Rock Island and my dad helped engineer an automatic slack adjuster for AB schedule brake freight cars. Plus, my father was in the foundry business and railroad equipment manufacturers were some of his customers. I got to the yard office with about 40 to 50 other people and then we began taking tests. By lunch after the final test we were down to four people, I was one of them. After lunch we were interviewed. A couple of weeks later, I got a letter from the green and yellow railroad.....have a nice life, you're NOT hired. IF THE INTERVIEWER EVEN THINKS YOU LIKE TRAINS YOU WILL NOT HIRED. DON'T LET IT SLIP ONCE YOU ARE HIRED THAT YOU ARE INTERESTED IN TRAINS, NOT A POSITIVE CAREER MOVE.
Many or most professional railroaders do NOT LIKE RAIL FANS. In many respects it is because of bad experiences with rail fans in the past. |
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Post by jlwii2000 on Sept 11, 2014 13:40:24 GMT -8
Most "drones" used for train watching a small go pro holding electric devices. I could fly mine 30 feet over your head and you would not know it is there. Now people here say you are going to fly one into a locomotive cab and cause a derailment? We are not talking hellfire armed predators here.
So I had a talk with a few of my air traffic friends and a few others who would know about drones. They said small drones will likely not be outlawed, but certain areas will not allow for drone traffic at all. One example would be military bases, government buildings, etc. My air traffic friend also said that they are looking into allowing private corporations to ban drones in airspace directly above their property. I could see railroads doing that eventually, if empowered by laws. But for ATSFAN and other's sake I hope not. I don't see anything wrong with drones, I think they're cool. Especially for railfanning.
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Post by mlehman on Sept 25, 2014 12:16:36 GMT -8
A drone update... The AP reports that a half-dozen film industry and TV production groups have been granted permission to fly drones commercially within specified restricted areas used for film and video production but only if... ...flown under 400 feet in altitude and within the line of sight of an operator who holds a private pilot's license. Each aircraft must be inspected before flight, and nighttime flights are prohibited. Reality television shows or other unscripted events won't qualify for the permits.www.nytimes.com/aponline/2014/09/25/business/ap-us-movie-drones.html?ref=aponlineSo nothing for railfan drone filming yet, except nyet. |
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Post by riogrande on Sept 25, 2014 15:06:10 GMT -8
Yep, heard that on NPR on the car radio on the way home today.
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Post by atsfan on Sept 25, 2014 18:19:33 GMT -8
Nonsense.
I used a "drone" last weekend.
People need to differentiate between a small pilotless airplane and the 4 bladed heliocameras.
You don't need a predator to shoot a picture of a train!
Saying it is not allowed is absurd.
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Post by mlehman on Sept 25, 2014 22:07:10 GMT -8
More on today's drone news: www.nytimes.com/2014/09/26/business/media/drone-exemptions-for-hollywood-pave-the-way-for-widespread-use.htmlSupposedly, they're trying to get preliminary regs in place by the end of the year for commercial drones up to 55 pounds. Note that the definition of what a commercial drone/UAV vs a hobbyist radio controlled aircraft/RCA remains unclear and it's unknown whether further guidance on this will be part of that or not. More info: www.rcflightline.com/drones-vs-radio-controlled-aircraft-operation-oversightwww.rcflightline.com/drones-vs-radio-controlled-aircraft-drone-concerns-news-and-precedentsAn a lawyer's blog on drones...or is it RCA?...I'm not sure he's sure. dronelawjournal.com/It looks to me like whatever legal railfanning by drone happens for now will be done by RC aircraft hobbyists strictly for their own pleasure and non-commercial use. As it is now, to take whatever chase scenes, etc video produced and to market them as DVDs, for instance, would probably violate the temp rules. Posting such a video to a railfan website for your own use...well, sounds like a gray area if you start sharing it, depending on your user agreement, the day of the week, or the whim of unfriendly gov't attorneys. One thing's for sure, getting permission from the RR is probably a REALLY good idea before using one along the tracks. Unless you're anticipated, the crew, etc might think the RCA/drone was being used for some nefarious purpose. |
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Post by atsfan on Sept 26, 2014 3:47:38 GMT -8
More on today's drone news: www.nytimes.com/2014/09/26/business/media/drone-exemptions-for-hollywood-pave-the-way-for-widespread-use.htmlSupposedly, they're trying to get preliminary regs in place by the end of the year for commercial drones up to 55 pounds. Note that the definition of what a commercial drone/UAV vs a hobbyist radio controlled aircraft/RCA remains unclear and it's unknown whether further guidance on this will be part of that or not. More info: www.rcflightline.com/drones-vs-radio-controlled-aircraft-operation-oversightwww.rcflightline.com/drones-vs-radio-controlled-aircraft-drone-concerns-news-and-precedentsAn a lawyer's blog on drones...or is it RCA?...I'm not sure he's sure. dronelawjournal.com/It looks to me like whatever legal railfanning by drone happens for now will be done by RC aircraft hobbyists strictly for their own pleasure and non-commercial use. As it is now, to take whatever chase scenes, etc video produced and to market them as DVDs, for instance, would probably violate the temp rules. Posting such a video to a railfan website for your own use...well, sounds like a gray area if you start sharing it, depending on your user agreement, the day of the week, or the whim of unfriendly gov't attorneys. One thing's for sure, getting permission from the RR is probably a REALLY good idea before using one along the tracks. Unless you're anticipated, the crew, etc might think the RCA/drone was being used for some nefarious purpose. You continue to exaggerate the entire topic. Do you simply refuse to understand that I can fly the heliocameras I own over any train yard and nobody would know it I even there? And it isn't illegal? This kind of internet urban legend is just incomprehensible. We are not talking about pilotless airplanes. |
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Post by atsfan on Sept 26, 2014 9:47:42 GMT -8
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Post by curtmc on Sept 27, 2014 9:04:28 GMT -8
Actually Mike isn't exaggerating... There was a thorough legal discussion on a DC radio station the other day on the news of the FAA decision on filmmaker use. To use any type of drone for commercial purposes above 100' requires approval of the FAA. Failure to do so is currently a felony.
As for personal RC use... It is a gray area with a few exceptions. If a stray RC drone comes down on somebody's property then that property owner can claim it and charge the person who had been flying it with trespassing. If it comes down on somebody's property and causes damage or injury the trespassing operator is at fault and responsible for all costs and can also be arrested.
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Post by sd80macs on Sept 27, 2014 10:32:07 GMT -8
Drones make for great target practice!!! Seriously, I expect the days of unlimited (or even limited) drone use are numbered as many cities and states look into outlawing them on the grounds of public safety (and privacy). Here in VA we have a few cities that have already outlawed them (except by federal forces of course) and the state is working on it. Shooting the air at a drone is easily reckless discharge of a firearm, for starters. I guess by that standard so is duck hunting and skeet shooting. |
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Post by mlehman on Sept 27, 2014 11:42:36 GMT -8
SNIP... I guess by that standard so is duck hunting and skeet shooting. All I can say is the FAA doesn't regulate duck hunting, that's a different dept.  |
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Post by atsfan on Sept 27, 2014 17:36:20 GMT -8
Shooting the air at a drone is easily reckless discharge of a firearm, for starters. I guess by that standard so is duck hunting and skeet shooting. You guessed wrong. |
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Sept 27, 2014 17:51:35 GMT -8
If a stray RC drone comes down on somebody's property then that property owner can claim it and charge the person who had been flying it with trespassing. If it comes down on somebody's property and causes damage or injury the trespassing operator is at fault and responsible for all costs and can also be arrested. Arrested for what? Other than a very weak case possibly of trespassing the whole situation is totally a civil issue. |
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Post by atsfan on Sept 30, 2014 16:27:56 GMT -8
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Post by peoriaman on Oct 1, 2014 4:50:08 GMT -8
This thread has gotten me down off the fence and firmly into the drone hating camp.
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Post by mlehman on Oct 2, 2014 14:28:02 GMT -8
This thread has gotten me down off the fence and firmly into the drone hating camp. I'm neutral on the topic myself. But if the gubmint gets to fly drones, I'm of the opinion the people should probably be likewise generally entitled. On the other hand, there are times and places where it seems they would be inappropriate. How about if you were planning an event with more than 500 hot air balloons flying whichever way the wind takes them. The organizers seems to have a reasonable position in asking that the area be closed. www.nytimes.com/aponline/2014/10/02/us/ap-us-balloon-fiesta-drones.html?ref=newsNot sure if I totally agree with the 4 mile radius restriction. I would also think that it would be useful to have at least one dedicated news drone that was authorized to fly, if for no other reason than its newsfeed could be useful in managing the event itself. RR-related content: It's an interesting precedent to ban drones within so many miles of a special event. It sounds like they're covering all drones, from big UAVs to the puniest RC model of a Cub mounting a Go Pro. Or are they? Depends on your definition of drone, which is still subject to considerable dispute as we know just from this thread. I suppose reading the FAA notams on this might yield some clues on this specific event. Obviously, this sort of ban could apply to a U.P. steam program excursion, various tourist RRs, during accidents, their cleanup, or other newsworthy RR events, etc. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2014 15:09:18 GMT -8
This thread has gotten me down off the fence and firmly into the drone hating camp. I'm neutral on the topic myself. But if the gubmint gets to fly drones, I'm of the opinion the people should probably be likewise generally entitled. The government gets to fly B-52's with a "hot" payload. I don't think as John Q. Public, I'm allowed to fly such a machine with a payload. There will always be things the government and its agencies can do, that we as citizens can not. Some drones may or may not fall into the forbidden category. Drones no matter what the size may or may not be forbidden from flying in certain areas. |
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Post by mlehman on Oct 2, 2014 16:09:23 GMT -8
I'm neutral on the topic myself. But if the gubmint gets to fly drones, I'm of the opinion the people should probably be likewise generally entitled. The government gets to fly B-52's with a "hot" payload. I don't think as John Q. Public, I'm allowed to fly such a machine with a payload. SNIP Thus, my "generally entitled" qualifier. I'm of the camp that believes the government usually isn't grown-up enough on most days that they need nukes. But no one asked my permission. I suppose we'll continue with the daily strategy of "Feelin' lucky?" that worked for the last seven decades or so with those...until it doesn't. Then we'll be really, really, really sorry we didn't take the opportunity to limit the destructive possibilities of miscalculations, dumb leaders, and plain ol' bad luck of leaving a lot of those things floating around. On the other hand, as far as I know, none of the domestic drone operators are insisting on their right to mount and fly Hellfire missiles. A camera isn't a lethal weapon, but it can sure be an embarrassing one. It's probably worth not confusing the issue with tangents away from what the reasonable and prudent railfan might do. |
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Post by atsfan on Oct 2, 2014 17:26:46 GMT -8
I could fly the white helicopter "drone" I have over your house and you would never know it was there. It is basically silent.
They are excellent for rail fanning and pictures you can get from the ground.
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Post by curtmc on Oct 13, 2014 13:33:18 GMT -8
Actually anybody causing any damage on your property - whether caused by a drone, a RC plane, their vehicle, etc... - can be charged along the general lines ranging from Criminal Mischief to Criminal Property Damage... (varies from locality to locality)
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Post by curtmc on Oct 13, 2014 13:41:27 GMT -8
Until I saw it and reported it to police because of the illegality of it in this area...
And flying said drones over houses anywhere would not be wise. All it would take is one person seeing it (and coming to a non-railfanning conclusion) and say that they saw it looking into a person house window and then you'd be caught up in that whole Peeping Tom category of crimes... and good luck getting out of that with a railfanning excuse.
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Post by atsfan on Oct 13, 2014 16:26:52 GMT -8
Until I saw it and reported it to police because of the illegality of it in this area... And flying said drones over houses anywhere would not be wise. All it would take is one person seeing it (and coming to a non-railfanning conclusion) and say that they saw it looking into a person house window and then you'd be caught up in that whole Peeping Tom category of crimes... and good luck getting out of that with a railfanning excuse. You wouldn't see it. You keep dreaming up crimes. By the logic above you could be arrested for just standing on the side walk drone or no drone. |
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Post by atsfan on Oct 13, 2014 16:27:35 GMT -8
Actually anybody causing any damage on your property - whether caused by a drone, a RC plane, their vehicle, etc... - can be charged along the general lines ranging from Criminal Mischief to Criminal Property Damage... (varies from locality to locality) What damage does a heliocameras cause flying in the air? |
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Post by atsfan on Oct 13, 2014 18:07:58 GMT -8
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2014 18:29:00 GMT -8
Until I saw it and reported it to police because of the illegality of it in this area... And flying said drones over houses anywhere would not be wise. All it would take is one person seeing it (and coming to a non-railfanning conclusion) and say that they saw it looking into a person house window and then you'd be caught up in that whole Peeping Tom category of crimes... and good luck getting out of that with a railfanning excuse. A peeping Thomas. That is disturbing. |
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Post by curtmc on Oct 14, 2014 16:12:47 GMT -8
1) Unauthorized flying of any drone or RC plane with camera over someone else's property is considered in most states as an invasion of privacy and/or trespassing
2) Many localities are writing and enforcing new laws on drones because of their terrorism threat (it doesn't take much of a terrorist imagination to think of payload, and the potential to disperse over crowd, if not directly at one specific individual)
3) The first idiot dumb enough to try to fly one over 1600 Penn Ave (or any other high ranking political official home) and get caught is going to pretty much be an end to RC and drones as the current hobbyists know it... Goodbye $10K toy.
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