Southeast Stuff Sells!

[railthunder]

I just watched a Florida East Coast Overland Models Brass 4-8-2 Steam locomotive sell for over $2,000 on Ebay. Wow, all the talk some time ago about southeast stuff not selling, this sure made me makes me wonder!

Bring on the Silver Meteor, Champion, and Silver Star!

[curtmc]

Just because one low production brass item gets two people who want it bidding way more than they should CANNOT be taken as ay indication that anything sells...

Once upon a time there was a generic Tyco boxcar that sold on eBay for over $200 because two people threw in outrageous last second bids. I couldn't believe the auction results when they came up in a search of past auctions the next week so I had to check out the bidding history on that auction. The car was at less than $2 when two bids in last few seconds were both over $200. So you really cannot judge the auction results of any item to indicate value unless there were a half dozen or more people bidding. It is likely neither person wanted to pay $200 for that Tyco car. They just both wanted to make a last second bid to get the car - both thinking nobody else would bid more than $10 but wanting to make sure they won the auction... Can you imagine the surprise to the winner of how much he was going to be paying?

BTW, that OMI FEC 4-8-2 was a very low production model (50), from long ago (1985) and they are not commonly seen for sale. So what you probably had was two people who both wanted that unit very bad. (Yes, only two people bid above $660)

If there were 200 who wanted it bad (the number of people needed to make a Silver Meteor, Champion or other SE streamliner project viable) it would have had a few hundred bids... (and who knows how outrageous the final bid value would have been... $10,000? $25,000?).

Several model manufacturers have made comments to me and others I know - as we were requesting southeastern models (ACL, SAL, SCL, Family Lines) - that their sales of southeastern models are usually poor... And they said they had the sales experience to know that.

Want a recent example of how southeastern models really don't sell? Athearn announced the Apalachicola Northern GP15T and there were many favorable comments about how unique they were and how everybody in the south was going to buy one for that favorite southeastern short line with the unique units and flashy paint... They were cancelled due to insufficient preorders.

Want a second example? Slowest selling Athearn SD45-2s - even at prices less than $70 each at major mailorder dealers - were SCL, Family Lines and Clinchfield - and that despite the production numbers being far less than Santa Fe and other roadnames.

[riogrande]

I agree with Curt, and one piece of information does not a trend make. Heck, D&RGW stuff always seems to be sold out when other road names linger for years when I look on fleabay for diesels. It's true, a few loud and excited voices don't make a road name or diesel popular - manufacturers need volume. It sounds like the Apalachicola Northern GP15T is an example of that, and I'm sure you could browse ebay and see all of the road names lingering of various models and draw anecdotal conclusions.

[curtmc]

I just checked the brass guide on that OMI FEC steamer...

FEC had 51 of those 4-8-2s.
That OMI HO model is the only FEC steamer OMI ever made a model of AND the only FEC steamer that ANY brass importer has ever made a brass model of.
OMI only made one production run - it was in 1985 and was only 50 pieces.

So, it's the only brass HO FEC steamer and fewer models were made than the total number of the prototypes FEC had. That is a situation where two people wanting one model - made 27 years ago - is going to lead to very high bids. The final bid was about 4 times the 1985 price, and about twice the value given in the 2009 brass model trains buyers guide. Only 4 people made bids above the 1985 selling price.

[spookyac47]

A few years ago, when I was culling unneeded items from my roster, I put a set of 8 (think it was 8)HO scale plastic MDC/Roundhouse plastic car kits up for sale on our favorite auction website. The cars were a one time run to commemorate John Allen's Gorre and Daphetid Railroad. I believe each car probably cost in the range of $2.98.
The car set sold for $375, way beyond what I expected for 8 shake-a-box kits.
Needless to say, that was a one time bonus, nothing I have sold before of since has gone crazy with the bidding - but it did cover the cost of a DCC system I was thinking about purchasing at the time.

That being said, brass models fall into their own category, especially long out of production brass . . . for some it is an investment that may not see the light of day once purchased. . . or be in a furniture grade display case . . .
They may purchase based on the road represented . . . or the perceived resale value . . .

[drolsen]

Jul 4, 2012 5:18:27 GMT -8 curtmc said:

Want a second example? Slowest selling Athearn SD45-2s - even at prices less than $70 each at major mailorder dealers - were SCL, Family Lines and Clinchfield - and that despite the production numbers being far less than Santa Fe and other roadnames.

I seem to recall that Atlas once said that Family Lines and Seaboard System are their two worst-selling roadnames, regardless of the model. I think it's a combination of the short history of each roadname and the less-than-attractive paint schemes. I always need them to serve as patched CSX equipment, but even as a diehard CSX fan, I'm not excited about either of those roadnames.

Dave

[riogrande]

I have no concept on what is popular and what is not. I grew up out west so I don't know much or follow eastern RR's, but figure some have a big followng and some don't. I only know that what I like (SP/D&RGW) seems to be hard to find so anedotal evidence is it must be pretty popular.

[nw611]

As a 5 year Southeastern resident (from 1984 to 1989 in Atlanta and Miami), I have to say that those year of transition were very interesting. I remember going on Saturday morning to a hobby shop in Kennesaw, Georgia, located along the NC&StL Atlanta-Chattanooga mainline. I could see mixed consists of L&N (gray and yellow), SCL (black and yellow), Family Lines and SBD locomotives. Once I also saw an Oneida & Western empty coal train (led by three SD40-2s) and the Gainsville Midland SD40. A couple of years later, in the Miami area, I could see also the first CSX locomotives in several paint schemes, toghether with patched L&N, SCL, FL and SBD locos. I have to admit, though, that the nicest locomotives of that period were the Southern units in tuxedo paint scheme. Ciao.
Raffaele

[railthunder]

My intent was that a southeastern prototype went for a lot of dough. Sure Overland didn't make many of them, maybe it was the rareness, but I doubt it. The FECs main staple of steam power was the 4-8-2 hence it was popular and well seen prototype. Main staples seem to move no matter where they are, it's the secondary not so common power that seems to have some shelf life.

The vast majority of models that are claimed to be poor sellers were not widely seen prototypes. Sure the SCL had SD45-2s but not a ton of them. The same could be said for the SD35s. My point is sales would increase if the prototype is/was seen more widely. An SCL GP40 or GP40-2 would be a totally different matter as would a U36B or a Southern GP50 etc.

Then again, there is a lot of inconsistency in product selection in the past. The Amtrak SDP40F was seen nationwide, would be an instant hit and sales, but it ultimately comes down to a choice of what to make. Sort of reminds me of ridership models i.e. you can fill up a train in many different corridors, but only might be able to make one train set to use etc.

Now back to laying track on the railroad today.

[el3637]

Jul 4, 2012 5:18:27 GMT -8 curtmc said:

BTW, that OMI FEC 4-8-2 was a very low production model (50), from long ago (1985) and they are not commonly seen for sale. So what you probably had was two people who both wanted that unit very bad. (Yes, only two people bid above $660)

Sounds like the bidding wars I got in over Key/Samhongsa NYC S2 Niagaras. The S1B has been done by many manufacturers and a decent brass one isn't that hard to come by. But the S2 was done only twice by Key, in very low production. I passed on one at a show back in the 90s because the dealer had a fairly well used 1985 run and was asking the 1989 run price for it (nearly 2x). Several times on ebay the 1985 units came up, and I NEVER bid my real bid until the final 20 seconds or so. It was sitting there at 600-something, and I tossed my $900 hail mary out there and somebody else bid more. The same thing happened again a few months later, this time I put in a bid of like $1000 and still got trumped. Months went by, and a third one came around and I threw out a final bid of like $1100, but got it for about $850 because I guess the other two guys already had theirs... I paid $850 for a loco with a book value of maybe $650, but its rarity made it worth it.

I wish it ran $850 worth. I ended up putting (drum roll) a Kato motor in it. It almost runs like I want it to. It still needs a little more tweaking. I've modified it to the point that I probably would lose money if I ever wanted to sell it, but I don't want to sell it. One thing about the S2... there was only one, so I have no excuse to ever want another one. I think PSC may have done an S2 somewhere in there... 2 grand for one of their sloppy pieces of junk, no thanks... I'll take my chances with the Key/Sam. A long way from perfect... IMO it doesn't run as well as a $250 Broadway. But, oh well.

Andy

[el3637]

Jul 4, 2012 8:33:37 GMT -8 drolsen said:

I seem to recall that Atlas once said that Family Lines and Seaboard System are their two worst-selling roadnames, regardless of the model.

Well I can honestly say they never sold me any. I have a Family Lines BQ23-7 somewhere, but it was a donation to the shell museum.

When did the first Family Lines locos appear? ISTR in 74-75 still seeing new locos delivered in L&N and SCL schemes even though they were under the same ownership since 72(?). At any rate, they don't fit my era at all fortunately.

Andy

[nw611]

The first new locomotives delivered in Family Lines paint scheme were L&N SD40-2s # 3584-3605 in 9/1977.
Raffaele

[valenciajim]

The John Allen stuff always commands a premium, but $375!!!! Wow.

I agree with Curt's assessment of the situation.

[railthunder]

Certainly good points on the brass steam engine running qualities. I've got several brass passenger diesels that will also require and upgrade and tweaking to get to run reliably run well.

I think Broadway Limited has done a good job with eastern steam that were part of everyday sightings on the railroad as they had a lot of them. The Pennsy and NYC is very well covered with both passenger and freight locomotives. I was pleased they did the NYC Hudson and in the Big Four scheme at that. I considered doing a small NYC layout at one time and all three of my Hudsons ran great. The N&W has also been well represented. They did a great move with the next future release of USRA 4-6-2 Pacifics in ACL. ACL had a ton of them and used them in freight and passenger service. I'm planning on getting several of them for a special steam - diesel transition era session on the railroad.

I totally understand about the BQ23-7 Family Lines shell. There were only 10 on the prototype and since I model an area where they were more frequent sightings I have three rebuilt ones for the railroad, but certainly wouldn't need all 10 of them!

Gotta do some more tracklaying in my port area. Have a great one and happy modeling!

[atsfan]

Southeast is a big area. Family Lines? I can't see that selling that well. It was short lives and had less personality than CSX.

Today the Southeast is NS and CSX. Those both sell reasonably well.

Overall I think modelers need to realize that some of these fallen flags are LONG GONE. Pennsy for example. It has been 50 years since it was really the "Standard". That is long time, as in two generations.

Heck ATSF has been gone now since 1996. People move on eventually one way or the other.

Conrail itself has been gone for 12 years, never mind the 1976 date of it closing down all the others...............

[nw611]

If Family Lines had a short life (from 9/77 to 1982), Seaboard System lasted an average of little more than 3 years. The first new locomotives in SBD paint scheme were SD50s # 8500-8524 delivered in 1-2/1983 and the first locos painted in the "CSXTransportation" gray and blue appeared in May 1986. Of course locomotives in the predecessors paint schemes (Chessie, L&N, SCL etc.) lasted for many more years, with a small CSXT under the cab road numbers.
Ciao.
Raffaele

[Deleted]

Curt is spot on.

You are dealing with a single production run of only 50 pieces. The people biding on an item like that are not necessarily southeast modelers. That type of piece is something the BRASS COLLECTORS are going to swallow up. I will bet the winner is collector and NOT a southeast modeler.

If you want to see if some road sells look at the normal items of rolling stock from Athearn, Atlas, etc. Brass and custom models can not be considered as you have the collector driving up price.

[railthunder]

Jul 5, 2012 15:53:59 GMT -8 @australianterrier said:

Curt is spot on.

You are dealing with a single production run of only 50 pieces. The people biding on an item like that are not necessarily southeast modelers. That type of piece is something the BRASS COLLECTORS are going to swallow up. I will bet the winner is collector and NOT a southeast modeler.

If you want to see if some road sells look at the normal items of rolling stock from Athearn, Atlas, etc. Brass and custom models can not be considered as you have the collector driving up price.

A smaller single production run is not necessarily soley for brass collectors whether produced now or some time ago. Case in point is the February 2001 issue of Model Railroader is "The railroad that went to sea" about the Key West Extension in HO of the Florida East Coast. There are several 4-8-2 Overland Mountains pictured in the article and it was an operating railroad. There will always be exceptions to the case of only brass collectors.

As for the purchaser being a collector, modeler, have a layout etc. that is their discretion, but the fact that a southeast road sold for a lot of money is interesting.

I'm a big fan of your F unit modeling by the way. Keep up the great work and thanks for sharing.

[curtmc]

A few more points...

I recall seeing many of those OMI FEC steamers for sale in the late 1980s and early 1990s... So they must have not sold out rapidly.

If there had been more demand for them I bet OMI would have done additional production runs in the 1990s.

OMI's latest FEC offerings (SD70ACe units) have been the slowest selling of all roadnames...

As a friend (and hobby shop owner) once commented, HO trains seem to be most popular in those areas where homes have basements... and there are not many basements in Florida or many other areas of the Southeast. So you see a lot of Southeastern modelers in N-scale.

[Paul Cutler III]

atsfan,
You're right about NS & CSX being the Southeast these day...but since the CR split, they aren't strictly Southeastern roads anymore. When NS is running over Horseshoe Curve and CSX is in Boston, that's not exactly Dixieland.

And I dunno about the idea that people are "moving on" after the old roads have been gone for a generation or two. It's certainly not the case here in New England. Modern stuff just isn't that popular around these parts. The old roads (NH, B&M, MEC, etc.) are far and away the roads of choice. Walk around the Springfield Show or go to a local club, and it's obvious. The NH's been gone for 43 years, but the replacements since (PC, AMTK, MBTA, CR, P&W, Guilford/Pan Am, CSX) have not captured the "hearts and minds" of New Englanders and I don't know if they ever will.

[calzephyr]

The rare models usually bring higher prices and some of those older rare models are not even highly detailed to match the detail that most models have now.

I sold several models in the early 1990 era that included one of the Sakura NYC Hudson models and one of the PFM N&W J class. The price I got for those was very high, but now they are showing up three times the price I got in 1991. They were both less than 50 production for the run and the collectors wanted them. The detail was good on those models but nothing like we have today.
Larry

[antoniofp45]

This is just focusing on the SCL in response to the previous comments.

I can understand the points regarding the brass unit mentioned, however, regarding the SCL SD45-2, that's relatively easy to explain. Although the Athearn SCL SD45-2s are beautiful units ( I have one by the way), SCL owned only 15 prototypes! I saw many SCL units, including regular SD45s back then. Don't recall ever seeing an SD45-2.

Many SCL modelers, myself included, are "gung-ho" about the SCL U-BOAT fleet, particularly the U33B and U36B models, of which collectively there were 137! Big difference compared to the SD45-2, no? This does not even include SCL's other U-Boat models as well. Those testosterone laden units were Seaboard Coast Line's road power "back bone" for a decade. Back in the 70s, if you railfanned any SCL mainline in Florida, Georgia, and the Carolinas you would have seen them in action, even in areas that had mostly EMDs assigned to road jobs.



Imho, if Atlas or Athearn, or Walthers produced a correctly scaled SCL U33B or U36B, it would sell out before hitting the store shells in the southeastern USA. Additionally, I found on several forums that a number of northeastern (Penn Central, Conrail, RF&P) modelers were interested in SCL motive power since the prototypes often ran on northeastern roads as well.

Regarding the "Southeast doesn't sell" mindset of some

Part of the problem that is rarely mentioned and is almost hypocritical is that when manufacturers have produced southeastern diesel locomotive models, some had vivid, glaring errors that required quite a bit of work to fix! Statements to the manufacturer by historical society members that viewed pre-run southeastern Alpha samples were ignored as the attitude conveyed by the rep seemed to be "Hey, this is it, just be grateful that we're even producing this!". The runs were made, sales were slumpish. One modeler I spoke with regarding a particular model frustratingly said "I'm not spending $175 on a locomotive that needs grills cut out and underbody details replaced! They can forget it!" The manufacturer then says "Sales are poor, this just doesn't sell". Yet, with few exceptions, the same manufacturer seemed to go the extra mile to get the details on certain western models "spot on target", including having the importer making last minute changes to tooling. I don't want to start an argument, but I can name several instances where this was the case.

I remember reading of a southeastern modeler being chewed out by other modelers on a forum for being ungrateful for the southeastern models produced, with errors................yet on the old Atlas forum there was a 9-PAGE+ thread on the errors of the Athearn GP9 (I think) shell. Some of you guys here made posts on that thread. Athearn eventually changed it's stance, relented and fixed the errors. Apparently Athearn's staff understood that by not fixing the "glaring" errors, they were going to lose potential sales.

BTW: LL P2K SCL GP-9s and SD45s were plentiful at one time on ebay. Now you seldom see them and when you do, what's the price? Southeast doesn't sell? Make it at least 98% correct.....and it will sell!

------------------------------------

As for moving on??? Come on! Respectfully think about that. Some modelers do change to other roads, but like many of us that are over 30 a good number of us model the roads that we remember from our youth. Most of the modelers I've met when I was a teen modeled roads that had "cool colors" or "huge locomotives". In my circle of friends, as we moved into our late 20s, our conversations often turned to "Man! I sure miss seeing those loud chugging U-Boats!" or "I wish I could see a high-nosed Geep pulling the 5pm local again".

Today I think about those SD40-2s, SDP40fs, and SW9s that back then seemed to be a dime a dozen.

[Paul Cutler III]

Antonio,
Not for nothing, but a Walthers rep told me that the highly inaccurate NH coach they just came out with was sold out before they got to the dock. The highly inaccurate DL-109 has had 3 runs in NH and another was just announced. And both the Atlas and Athearn RS-3's are not "98% right" for NH, either, yet they keep cranking them out. I guess my point is that if a road is popular enough, accuracy is not much of a hold up (as much as we might like it to be).

Personally, I'd like to see the real-life examples you're talking about with SCL models. Not that I don't believe you, but it's hard to see where you're coming from if we don't have the exact model and manufacturer to reference.

The GP9 was not about being correct for a certain road. It wasn't correct for any road, and that especially showed up with any paint scheme that used the radiators as a paint guide. Now, it did take Athearn painting one in UP colors and showing it off at a train show out West before they got the idea they had a big problem, but I think it would have come to their attention eventually even if it was an Eastern road.

FWIW, I don't model my childhood. What I can recall are Amtrak & MBTA F40PH's and Conrail B23-7's. That's it. Rather boring. Gimme an unmatched set like a GP9, RS-11, FB-1, and H16-44 haulin' 100 cars any day over that.

[nw611]

Paul, if you modeled the Atlanta area in the mid eighties (before CSX), you could see a locomotive consist with the following units (including only models with DCC and sound made in the last ten years and/or announced):
SD45-2s in SCL, CRR, FL and SBD
SD35s (and/or SDP35s) in LN, SCL, FL and SBD
B23-7 in FL
B30-7 in SBD
GP40-2s in AWP, GA, WA (and maybe RFP)
U23Bs in LN
SD40-2s in LN and FL
C30-7s in FL and SBD
U18Bs in SCL, FL and SBD
U28Bs in LN and FL
U30Bs in LN
SD45 in SBD
U30Cs in FL
and Antonio is right: the U33/36B/Cs are missing.
I would like to add all the high hood Southern units, just to underline how interestig that era was in the Southeast. Ciao.
Raffaele

[Deleted]

Our objectivity concerning sales of needed rolling stock for our favorite prototype is tainted at best. We ALL FEEL that some locomotive, freight car or passenger trains "will sell out before its announced!"

Really?

We ARE NOT the ones betting OUR JOBS or OUR COMPANY'S MONEY on a particular model. I'll say it again, do you feel so SURE that something will sell out FAST that you'd bet your home, retirement and financial future to back the project? If it fails YOU LOOSE EVERYTHING, if it is successful you get a little profit.

We can sit here and pound away at the keyboard like a possessed demon wanting this or that model. Why? Because talk is cheap. FEW on this board are manufacturers, who are the people that have to make tough decisions and back it up with the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS IN CAPITAL. MOST OF US don't have any skin in the game which makes all the jabber about "this will sell out" just what it is......a bunch of nothing.

[cmarchan]

It's so easy for naysayers to say give up; forget about SE models.
The tide is changing, however, and for several reasons.

Does anyone know how the new Tropicana cars from Intermountain were made? I do because I was involved in the project. It took some convincing (3 years) and the car is a close replica (here come the responces, I feel it) but not only are they making it, they are afraid they can't make ENOUGH!

Why the U36B? It's simple the BiCentennial unit will carry the run and pay for the tooling. Look at all the other BiCentennials out there. BTW for those that dont know, the SCL BI was the ONLY one from any factory!!!; the others are clones!

Plus the following names: RI. PC (U33B), Auto-Train, SCL, SBD, CSX, TTI, Pickens.

Something else to add; those of us born after 1962 and before 1970 are making more money and we are the "sweet spot" financially speaking. We are merger children folks! And most of us are modeling our childhood! The variations are many and interesting. We are the ones the manufactures should listen to.

Guess what Athearn is making a commitment. So is Intermountain. They are giving us the SE models Walthers won't. Atlas is making them too and despite what the 'guys' at the shows say (I've talked to them too) SE models sell, especially if they look close to the prototype. If they don't have all the specifications, at least make them close enough for modifcations to make monetary sense.

BTW, anyone see the Athearn F2s in ACL, A prominent contributor to the hobby is a consultant for SE models and the special air intake on the roof was customed made for THAT model only on his request.

I don't believe in the never say never; that thinking would have us winding up our trains instead of using DC or DCC.

I jump off the box now.

[nw611]

Cmarchan, are you saying that the new Red Caboose/Intermountain Tropicana cars are completely new models ? Nothing to do with their previous 57' Reefer or they are just repaints ? Ciao.
Raffaele

[cmarchan]

nw611, these are not new models, the car they are using is the one released as the Pacific Fruit Express car. The point I was making in this sense is IM was under the impression the car was not worth making on any level. It took a lot of convincing and modeler feedback for them to believe the investment was worth it. This was an important step in the hobby as despite what was said to the contrary, we have the ablility to convince manufacturers to make a product if we can show strong interest. I believe in communication with the manufacturers via Historical Societies, modeling conventions and RPMs are the key. We need to unite on these forums if we want it, because if they read argumentative copy (and believe me they read them quietly) it creates doubt. The more negative that's said, the more the project will die!

[el3637]

Jul 12, 2012 4:20:37 GMT -8 @australianterrier said:

We can sit here and pound away at the keyboard like a possessed demon wanting this or that model. Why? Because talk is cheap. FEW on this board are manufacturers, who are the people that have to make tough decisions and back it up with the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS IN CAPITAL. MOST OF US don't have any skin in the game which makes all the jabber about "this will sell out" just what it is......a bunch of nothing.

So we should say... nothing? I would hope that those who do have "skin" in the game do at least a little market research, which would include listing to what people say they would buy. You don't base a decision on a few forum threads, but you don't make it in a vacuum anymore either, i.e. if we build it they will come especially if we paint it Santa Fe.

Manufacturers tell us that they had no choice but to go to China, to remain competitive both in price and detail. Now they tell us that they can't provide undecs, kits, or a steady supply of parts because of the China business model. Like everything else, this will continue to work for them until it doesn't. I'd like to think at least some old line manufacturers are positioned to deal with China becoming too expensive, or simply too much hassle to keep doing what they're doing. Or modeler's demand shifting to reflect people who might be aging and retiring and having more time than money, instead of the other way around. I may not be able to afford new RTR when I'm 70, but if my hands and eyes still work, I will be able to build kits.

Andy

[el3637]

Jul 12, 2012 8:25:04 GMT -8 cmarchan said:

Guess what Athearn is making a commitment. So is Intermountain. They are giving us the SE models Walthers won't.

Regional bias has always existed and probably will continue. Just as Athearn tended to ignore anything east of the Rockies, Walthers usually avoids anything south of the Mason-Dixon line. And regional bias isn't necessarily old school. Back in the 90s, a manufacturer was considering making N scale RoadRailers. They were based in Southern California, and by most accounts you'd think nobody there ever even *heard* of RoadRailers until they started running an experimental biweekly Swift train out there. So they scrambled to make the model, based on the Swift wedge. I talked to one of the employees - this was after I had already provided dozens of photos of NS Triple Crown RoadRailers, and he said they were going to do the Swift version. I said NS doesn't run any of those, and he said "I guess NS loses then". I said no, you lose 95% of your market. NS operated in excess of 1000 RoadRailers at the time with something like 12 daily trains over 5-6 different routes, with trains 80 to 120 trailers long. If you were on the NS main corridors, they were part of life. If you lived in SoCal, you had to get lucky or know somebody to catch the Swift train.

I actually don't know what version they ended up doing. I was supposed to get a free 5-pack of them in return for my photo contributions, but by the time they were actually released, I'm not even sure if the person I gave the photos to was still around. I never even got a good look at the product. No big deal since I'm not an N scaler anyway. But really - you're trying to decide what product to make, and it's not even worth a phone call to ask someone who might know, "Hey, who runs the most of these and where?"

Andy