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Post by mlehman on Dec 17, 2014 13:12:31 GMT -8
Oh nooooooooo... Suggest holding off on the radial saw, however much deserved, until they're had a chance to fix it.  |
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on Dec 17, 2014 13:59:29 GMT -8
Oh nooooooooo... Suggest holding off on the radial saw, however much deserved, until they're had a chance to fix it. Man, I had to stop recording so I could run off to work. I will continue recording tomorrow and record the internal inspection. I am certainly NOT planning to wait 4-6 weeks for a tiny repair to the decoder, speaker and the glue marks, oh and wavy handrails so you never know, the radial saw may once again spin thru plastic and metal. I asked Athearn to simply trade out my model with another one but they refused. They are just digging a deeper hole with bad products and bad customer service. If I shred this model then I lose a measely $208 but Athearn loses future purchases from me and many other people who are just fed up. *Note to Athearn* - Take care of your bad products before we get them, and if we need a replacement, replace them!! If YOUR CRAP fails after we get it, then promptly fix your product! A2thamay@yahoo.com |
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Post by bar on Dec 17, 2014 14:06:04 GMT -8
You contact Athearn about a problem and they offer to fix it. You can't wait 4-6 weeks? Quality issues aside, I'm not sure what Athearn did wrong here.
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Post by atsfan on Dec 17, 2014 14:35:55 GMT -8
You contact Athearn about a problem and they offer to fix it. You can't wait 4-6 weeks? Quality issues aside, I'm not sure what Athearn did wrong here. Other than selling defective products you mean? |
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Post by WP 257 on Dec 17, 2014 15:15:11 GMT -8
Update: My original post that started this thread indicated that I had found 1 Athearn Reading RS3 out of 13 that I thought would be acceptable (due to numerous quality issues with them all). However, that one engine too had something glued in place and slightly misaligned (the something was the cab and battery boxes--they didn't fit quite flush against the deck piece and were glued in place crooked). So after all my frustration, that 1 engine of 13 that was close to being ok has also been returned to stock (from layaway shelf). I'm just not good at fixing stuff that is glued firmly in place, and I shouldn't have to.
The 1 Genesis Reading GP7 out of more than 10 that I looked at in person is indeed a nice engine and I do like it...but I don't know that I can stomach trying to mail order another one in knowing the rate of acceptable models is as low as what I have seen. There's plenty of Genesis Reading units available online.
I also will point out that the recent Walthers Trainman (formerly Proto 1000 line) engines like the RS-2, while they are generic versions lacking the Genesis level details, seem to run better out of the box than the Athearn Genesis engine, which for me is herky-jerky on the layout (even after hours of running). My RS-2 also has dual flywheels, unlike some earlier Trainman releases that only had one.
At the Genesis price point, quality, or the lack thereof, is definitely an issue. When a lower priced engine like a Trainman/Proto 1000 series engine seems to run better than the Genesis...well I don't want to buy more Genesis when they cost so much more.
I have more Walthers RS2 engines coming, and no Athearns. Perhaps someday I'll add the grab irons and other details (sold separately) at the locations marked on the Walthers units...
Lost sales? I would have purchased at least 3 of the Athearn Reading units, of one kind or another, if they had looked ok, but was forced to consider other engines from other makes, in LV and other roadnames.
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Dec 17, 2014 16:36:18 GMT -8
Update: My original post that started this thread indicated that I had found 1 Athearn Reading RS3 out of 13 that I thought would be acceptable (due to numerous quality issues with them all). However, that one engine too had something glued in place and slightly misaligned (the something was the cab and battery boxes--they didn't fit quite flush against the deck piece and were glued in place crooked). So after all my frustration, that 1 engine of 13 that was close to being ok has also been returned to stock (from layaway shelf). I'm just not good at fixing stuff that is glued firmly in place, and I shouldn't have to. The 1 Genesis Reading GP7 out of more than 10 that I looked at in person is indeed a nice engine and I do like it...but I don't know that I can stomach trying to mail order another one in knowing the rate of acceptable models is as low as what I have seen. There's plenty of Genesis Reading units available online. I also will point out that the recent Walthers Trainman (formerly Proto 1000 line) engines like the RS-2, while they are generic versions lacking the Genesis level details, seem to run better out of the box than the Athearn Genesis engine, which for me is herky-jerky on the layout (even after hours of running). My RS-2 also has dual flywheels, unlike some earlier Trainman releases that only had one. At the Genesis price point, quality, or the lack thereof, is definitely an issue. When a lower priced engine like a Trainman/Proto 1000 series engine seems to run better than the Genesis...well I don't want to buy more Genesis when they cost so much more. I have more Walthers RS2 engines coming, and no Athearns. Perhaps someday I'll add the grab irons and other details (sold separately) at the locations marked on the Walthers units... Lost sales? I would have purchased at least 3 of the Athearn Reading units, of one kind or another, if they had looked ok, but was forced to consider other engines from other makes, in LV and other roadnames. You may be picky, but the vast majority don't care. So a few lost sales to the finicky isn't damaging the profit. Because in the end the run does sell out. Walthers will be releasing a Proto E8A painted for Amtrak with some HEP equipment. The prototype Walthers is doing had all its side porthole windows removed during its rebuilding with HEP. The model from Walthers will come with all eight porthole side windows. They will be painted over, which should look really awful. Even though at a show a Walthers rep said they could remove the side windows and do other modifications. Guess it isn't so. Walthers did commuter versions of Rock Island and CNW units. The effort with the CNW unit was half baked as they didn't do the changes to the battery box and air reservoir as well as some other details. Walthers sold out of the CNW units, still has Rock Island and will more than likely blow out the Amtrak E8 with painted over porthole windows. Why? Because even a little detail of the HEP on both models is better than NO HEP on both models to MOST people. Same holds true for glue smudges and other picky details, that don't include broken or missing parts. You may crab publicly about the hideous effort put forth by Athearn, but other than a few other vocal critics on this forum, Athearn is still selling out run after run and doing just fine. In fact all the Reading units are sold out at Athearn. Even if they are sitting in a store's inventory, Athearn still made its money and eventually the stores will sell those models, warts and all. Next up is the Topeka cab Santa Fe's. Want to bet that even with some glue smudges, a slightly wavy handrail, etc. that those don't sell out immediately at Athearn. You may think that your not purchasing those locomotives are lost sales, but in reality they are not to Athearn. Lost sale to the store for now, but they'll move them to the people who just want a Reading GP7 because it looks cool. Also, a few years ago on the old Atlas forum, when I publicly groused about glue smudges, holes drilled to nowhere on Genesis Milwaukee Road FP7's, I was told to quit my whining, rub some dirt on the model(aka weathering) AND SHUT UP. This is the viewpoint that many other modelers, other than the usual suspects on this forum, seem to taking in regards to some of what amount to trivial issues to the vast majority of people. The crabbing and whining about quality control from all the manufacturers is exactly the same as the crabbing and whining about price, pre orders and a host of other "ills" of the hobby. The only constant is its the same choir on this forum telling us to run for it as in their viewpoint model railroading is dead. |
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Post by atsfan on Dec 17, 2014 18:16:50 GMT -8
Lost sales means lower profit.
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Post by Judge Doom on Dec 17, 2014 20:08:28 GMT -8
Lost sales means lower profit. I wish it were that simple. But like Rahna-Outbakred-Maiala-Trudy said, it'll probably get returned to the LHS, and if it's not a big deal (some part on crooked)it'll go back on the shelf until someone else buys it, or it gets marked down or discounted to sell if it sits long enough. Athearn's already paid, LHS gets paid, someone gets a product, and someone does without. That's life. |
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Post by llxlocomotives on Dec 17, 2014 20:10:32 GMT -8
I find it interesting that you go directly to Athearn to get a problem solved. Unless you bought it directly from them. If you bought it from MB Kline, for instance, I would call them. Surely, the will take back or replace a defective product. They will carry more weight with Athearn than an individual.
As I posted earlier, I have several different Genesis models including two recent GP9 models. All the shells are impeccably finished. All but one fits in my excellent performance criteria.
I can not say the same thing about Walthers. I have three recent releases. The first two have had performance issues. One has a truck gear problem. The other would not run out of the box. Upon pulling the shell, one of the motor lead clips had come off the board. By reinstalling the clip, it seems to be ok. I have yet to determine how it fits in the performance criteria space. Since I fix loco's in general, I am going to make these run as well as they can. All in all, I think it is probably the luck of the draw.
I expect these to run slower than desired with less than desirable draw bar force. This us a general state of new models. They have been heavily biased for sound at the expense of being able to function as a mainline train prime mover.
It seems like the LHS owner that had so many defective units, would be demanding that His source do something to fix his inventory. How can he survive trying to sell that kind of unit as new.
Larry
Check out my blog:www.llxlocomotives.com
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Dec 17, 2014 20:48:31 GMT -8
John,
Just remember that Walthers doesn't make RS-3's and Athearn doesn't make RS-2's. They aren't the same engine.
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Post by WP 257 on Dec 17, 2014 21:09:38 GMT -8
Hi Paul--
Oh, yes, you are quite right...as I'm painfully aware.
The latest Athearn RS-3 is very well detailed indeed, with some road specific features that are correct. They also imo absolutely nailed, better than most other manufacturers' previous offerings, the Reading yellow and green colors. I wanted to own several of them, but the ones available locally...were not suitable for me.
I'm "settling for" the Walthers RS-2, which of course Reading never owned...but Lehigh Valley did, and they sometimes ran on portions of the Reading and vice versa, and the Lehigh Valley ones look pretty nice. In fact, excepting a barely visible mold seam along the top of the long hood, it is a nice looking, albeit generic, non-road-specifically-detailed engine, that has marked drill holes for the modeler themselves to be able to add the appropriate grab irons at a later date. It also has a much better headlight than Athearn offers, and in my (acknowledged to be limited) experience runs better out of the box than my recent Athearn Genesis GP7, and the other recent Athearn engines I've actually tested. With a magnifying glass, the Alco builders plate is nicely readable on the Walthers unit--all in all a seemingly good value, though I cannot comment regarding which body shell is more accurate, because I don't know. I simply prefer the consistency of Walthers painting, fit and finish over that of Athearn, and will settle for an RS-2 when perhaps I wanted an RS-3.
They both appear to look a little bit better than the Atlas RS-3/RSD-4/5 shell which in some ways is looking a bit dated, though many folks still buy them, and they really run well.
YMMV.
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Post by WP 257 on Dec 17, 2014 21:33:41 GMT -8
It seems like the LHS owner that had so many defective units, would be demanding that His source do something to fix his inventory. How can he survive trying to sell that kind of unit as new. Larry Check out my blog:www.llxlocomotives.com As I've been told by more than one LHS owner, they almost lose money on returns. The time involved and the extra shipping charge leave them with very little profit. For that reason the dirty secret of model train retail is that most engines, even with a broken handrail, will go out either mail order or over the counter retail, and the end customer will either receive a discount if they notice the defect (say if it's sloppy glue marks or sloppy paint) before leaving the store--or like many of the real modelers who still are out there--will simply fix it themselves. Some are very good at gluing celcon handrails, or replacing them with their own fabricated brass ones. Others weather models anyway, so a bit of black smeared over sloppy glue onto bright yellow paint might for them just be an oil leak and might be ok. Others might use a sharp knife to delicately remove the sloppy bubbles of dried shiny glue...and then weather or otherwise retouch the model. I'm not that good. It is generally more cost effective for the LHS to give a sharp-eyed customer a special price than to pay to send a model back for credit (as replacement is usually not possible as the importer is sold out). The second RS3 I looked at, after the first mail order one I returned to MBK, which also did have problems, sold within a week to somebody else...thus proving some of Jim's points above on page 8. If not me, somebody will buy them. |
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Post by antoniofp45 on Dec 18, 2014 2:52:59 GMT -8
Thanks for the updates guys. Jim, imho, your thoughts on page 8 are spot-on! Regardless of the shortcomings many of us immediately notice, Athearn manages to sell out of newly released locomotives quickly. Big Al, always good seeing your posts. Looking forward to looking at your video review. Overall, I appreciate the heads-up and don't view the comments as whining, just information that's being passed on so that some of us won't be blindsided when we receive our models. So I'll be expecting the FRISCO "L-windshield" SD45 and SOUTHERN High-nosed "Tuxedo" SD45 to arrive with plain, untreaded walkways ( Ugh! Bummer!). However, I've been wanting these units for a lonnnng while so, as Jim points out regarding compromises, I'll purchase them. Hopefully I won't see bent handrails or broken parts.
On a side note, a modeler asked me why I don't just take a couple of P2K SD45s (plenty on Ebay), which come with treaded walkways, and create my FRISCO and Tuxedo versions. May be a wimpy excuse but, unfortunately, my modeling time has decreased significantly over the past 1 1/2 years. That's why I still have 15 Alclad2 passenger car projects staring at me from my display shelf and closet. I know myself in that I'll typically get started cutting,splicing, painting, etc...... then my job produces some new time consuming bureaucratic procedure, paperwork, or class that I must undergo or take.....and there goes my kitbashing and airbrushing time! I was supposed to have completed my Seaboard Coast Line Champion by this time.  Re: Plain walkway issue: I remember that a few years ago someone on the Atlas Forum posted that that a manufacturer produces very realistic looking Diamond Plating treadway decals. Anyone remember which company it is? Are those decals still available? |
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Post by Judge Doom on Dec 18, 2014 4:36:53 GMT -8
Thanks for the updates guys. ... Re: Plain walkway issue: I remember that a few years ago someone on the Atlas Forum posted that that a manufacturer produces very realistic looking Diamond Plating treadway decals. Anyone remember which company it is? Are those decals still available? Archer (resin on decal sheets, here) and Cannon & Co (copper etched, see here and here) both make the diamond pattern walkway treads. |
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Post by scl1234 on Dec 18, 2014 5:58:14 GMT -8
Lost sales means lower profit. No data to back up opinion. This is not much different from the hoaxing (urban myth) statement "Do not buy gasoline on date 'X' because we want to protest high gasoline prices".Gasoline is a fungible commodity, meaning that if you don't buy it, someone else will. The hobby isn't much different. Theoretical "lower profits" are offset by raising the prices and reducing the number of an item produced. Then as sales begin dropping off (or 75-90 days has passed), the distributors have a "street price" sale to liquidate the 20-25% of stock that is collecting dust. The Lower Profit claim holds no water when the mfr's continue pumping out run after run. |
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Post by llxlocomotives on Dec 18, 2014 6:24:17 GMT -8
Are they really committing fraud? Mail order is interstate commerce. They are going to role the dice for a few bucks profit? I can understand if they advertise a special price on a less than perfect item. Scratch and dent so to speak. In todays society of electronic tracking, It seems that a pattern of continued deception would be dangerous. The problem with knowledge is it can be good and it can be bad. I suspect that the threshold for attention is a dollar figure and number of complaints. Say $5000 or 10 complaints in a given time period.
I guess we are our own problem. We don't push back, so thay think they can put anything out there and we will buy it. The question is who is the guilty party, the manufacturer of someone in the supply chain? Or both.
Larry
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Dec 18, 2014 7:10:10 GMT -8
It seems like the LHS owner that had so many defective units, would be demanding that His source do something to fix his inventory. How can he survive trying to sell that kind of unit as new. Larry Check out my blog:www.llxlocomotives.com As I've been told by more than one LHS owner, they almost lose money on returns. The time involved and the extra shipping charge leave them with very little profit. For that reason the dirty secret of model train retail is that most engines, even with a broken handrail, will go out either mail order or over the counter retail, and the end customer will either receive a discount if they notice the defect (say if it's sloppy glue marks or sloppy paint) before leaving the store--or like many of the real modelers who still are out there--will simply fix it themselves. Some are very good at gluing celcon handrails, or replacing them with their own fabricated brass ones. Others weather models anyway, so a bit of black smeared over sloppy glue onto bright yellow paint might for them just be an oil leak and might be ok. Others might use a sharp knife to delicately remove the sloppy bubbles of dried shiny glue...and then weather or otherwise retouch the model. I'm not that good. It is generally more cost effective for the LHS to give a sharp-eyed customer a special price than to pay to send a model back for credit (as replacement is usually not possible as the importer is sold out). The second RS3 I looked at, after the first mail order one I returned to MBK, which also did have problems, sold within a week to somebody else...thus proving some of Jim's points above on page 8. If not me, somebody will buy them. My LHS, EngineHouse Services in Green Bay, inspects every locomotive for breakage, before the customer sees it. The owner, Paul, has no problem rejecting and returning defective products. No way will he sell something that is broken or has operation issues. On one run of Athearn RTR RS-3's the store sent back something like 50 models due to poor operation. I was at the store and they had a giant pile of rejected RS-3's. Paul then gave the management of Athearn, who he speaks with on a weekly basis an earful! Dump crap on EHS, and Paul will dump the crap back on the manufacturer and personally ask them what the major malfunction is with the company's quality control. EHS believes that the customer MUST BE happy and will do all it can to achieve that goal. If it means making life uncomfortable for the various manufacturers so be it. EHS discounts so the cost of returning 50 models must have cost the store a couple of bucks. Maybe, EHS has enough buying power, that the manufacturer comps the store for its return. Don't know, but EHS has no qualms about sending stuff back, refunding money to unhappy customers because of quality issues in an effort to make the customer happy. Is the business practices of EHS that different from other hobby retailers? |
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Post by WP 257 on Dec 18, 2014 7:39:10 GMT -8
Yes. Very much so. I'd say keep patronizing that shop! The owner is worth his weight in gold.
Now, if I was the owner of a shop, I would like to think I would have the cajones to do exactly what EHS does, and that I would give Athearn an earful, too.
However, they are far from typical; in fact, I would have to say they are exceptional.
When I told the owner of one LHS that the Reading RS-3 they had was defective, and what was defective about it, the owner said "It's Reading, someone else will buy it". (Shop is located within former Reading territory).
Even with big dollar brass models, most sellers will pass a brand new but slightly defective one off on the next buyer. One rather large shop I know did return a bunch of defective engines to Overland Models. Overland "repaired" them and sent them back. They were still defective. Overland did nothing to fix them. At that point, they stopped returning models to Overland and are also no longer an Overland Models dealer (partly because the yearly minimum order became something beyond practical sales reach). Other dealers have alleged that in some cases Overland's "repair" of a cosmetically defective brass model involves selling it to some other dealer...perhaps at a discount.
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Post by atsfan on Dec 18, 2014 8:55:28 GMT -8
Lost sales means lower profit. No data to back up opinion. This is not much different from the hoaxing (urban myth) statement "Do not buy gasoline on date 'X' because we want to protest high gasoline prices".Gasoline is a fungible commodity, meaning that if you don't buy it, someone else will. The hobby isn't much different. Theoretical "lower profits" are offset by raising the prices and reducing the number of an item produced. Then as sales begin dropping off (or 75-90 days has passed), the distributors have a "street price" sale to liquidate the 20-25% of stock that is collecting dust. The Lower Profit claim holds no water when the mfr's continue pumping out run after run. It is economics 101. Not an "opinion". To compare gasoline sales to model trains is absurd. If Athearn makes 10 engines of a run "Pumping out" and they sell out, that does not mean anything other than they sold out a smaller run and lost sales by doing so. If I can't find it I can't buy it. Lost sale. Lost profit. Any smart business chases the sales to profit curve. Simple selling out would get any business finance head fired. |
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Post by atsfan on Dec 18, 2014 8:59:14 GMT -8
If someone bought a $300 phone, mother board, camera, appliance, GPS unit, lawnmower, etc, etc, and the remedy to it being defective was to ship it back to the manufacturer (your own postage) and wait 4-6 weeks while they did something, they would go beserk.
This is no different.
I agree though, going back to the seller might be faster. If they actually can get you a replacment !
Otherwise, a refund.
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Post by scl1234 on Dec 18, 2014 9:10:02 GMT -8
If I can't find it I can't buy it. Lost sale. Lost profit. Another invalid and naïve assumption...that Athearn's profit suffers to any measurable extent just because they don't manufacture what you're looking for. Re the gasoline analogy: They manufacture what history has shown will sell, if you don't buy it today, someone else will tomorrow. They manufacture what has the best chance of generating a sale, even with a razor-thin profit margin; hence the continued survival of the company. |
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Post by John Sheridan on Dec 18, 2014 11:32:39 GMT -8
They manufacture what has the best chance of generating a sale, even with a razor-thin profit margin; hence the continued survival of the company. We have a winner!  |
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Post by atsfan on Dec 18, 2014 16:24:16 GMT -8
If I can't find it I can't buy it. Lost sale. Lost profit. Another invalid and naïve assumption...that Athearn's profit suffers to any measurable extent just because they don't manufacture what you're looking for. Re the gasoline analogy: They manufacture what history has shown will sell, if you don't buy it today, someone else will tomorrow. They manufacture what has the best chance of generating a sale, even with a razor-thin profit margin; hence the continued survival of the company. You are saying that Athearn's production runs are the same size as always, or larger? If I can't find it, I don't buy it. I am not alone. |
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Dec 18, 2014 16:53:38 GMT -8
Another invalid and naïve assumption...that Athearn's profit suffers to any measurable extent just because they don't manufacture what you're looking for. Re the gasoline analogy: They manufacture what history has shown will sell, if you don't buy it today, someone else will tomorrow. They manufacture what has the best chance of generating a sale, even with a razor-thin profit margin; hence the continued survival of the company. You are saying that Athearn's production runs are the same size as always, or larger? If I can't find it, I don't buy it. I am not alone. That is why if you want it you pre-order it. Athearn makes the run to the pre-order numbers. Dealers take reservations and order that number of units. The minute the container hits the dock in Long Beach, it is basically money in the bank for both Athearn and the retailer. Many industries are using the "just in time" model of stocking. Even the automakers don't sit around with 100,000 engines in crates piled in a corner of the assembly plant. The train comes, the car with motors from the engine plant is opened up and those motors are in cars and on autoracks destined for the dealer in a matter of days. Why should Athearn and the dealer tie up financial resources for the few that don't want to pre-order. The vast majority of the hobby seems content to do business this way. Get with the program or step out of the way. Its 2015 not 1976. |
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Post by bar on Dec 18, 2014 17:27:26 GMT -8
Thanks for the updates guys. ... Re: Plain walkway issue: I remember that a few years ago someone on the Atlas Forum posted that that a manufacturer produces very realistic looking Diamond Plating treadway decals. Anyone remember which company it is? Are those decals still available? Archer (resin on decal sheets, here) and Cannon & Co (copper etched, see here and here) both make the diamond pattern walkway treads. That stuff sure is better than the old Bilger self-adhesive treadplate! PFM offered a treadplate kit for the SD40-2. |
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Post by John Sheridan on Dec 19, 2014 4:57:36 GMT -8
You are saying that Athearn's production runs are the same size as always, or larger? If I can't find it, I don't buy it. I am not alone. That is why if you want it you pre-order it. Athearn makes the run to the pre-order numbers. Dealers take reservations and order that number of units. The minute the container hits the dock in Long Beach, it is basically money in the bank for both Athearn and the retailer. Many industries are using the "just in time" model of stocking. Even the automakers don't sit around with 100,000 engines in crates piled in a corner of the assembly plant. The train comes, the car with motors from the engine plant is opened up and those motors are in cars and on autoracks destined for the dealer in a matter of days. Why should Athearn and the dealer tie up financial resources for the few that don't want to pre-order. The vast majority of the hobby seems content to do business this way. Get with the program or step out of the way. Its 2015 not 1976. That's pretty much it these days. The transportation of stock has reached the point where you can build one part & have it across the country in a few days (same day if you reaaaaaaally need it). I just ordered a iPad for Christmas. The item came directly from the factory floor in China on Tuesday & will be at my doorstep on Tuesday. I could have paid a bit more & had it here in 2 day if I chosen to do so but I like free shipping so it takes a week. A container of your favorite choo-choos can leave the factory floor in Shanghai & be at your front-door in about 3 weeks. That includes stops at the importer/distributor/dealer/my step. |
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Post by llxlocomotives on Dec 19, 2014 5:49:55 GMT -8
The wild card here us the large dealers. MJ Kline has over 300 Athearn a Genesis engines in stock. Not all variations are available, but most are and dome numbers are 3 and 4 deep. I'm sure they are not the only ones that inventory a large number of the engines. Yes a pre order will guarantee a model, but is it absolutely necessary? Maybe in some cases, but I wonder. There is a minimum number of any production that is required for the profit picture to be right, even at these prices. Thus, I'm convinced that individuals of one or two do not make a difference. After all, do they pick the pick the road names and numbers before or after the announcement? I would guess each road number is slated to be produced in numbers of 100-200 units. The pre order may increase the number of a given road, but to make a profit they have to make a minimum number of each variation. To leave one out would require more of the others. They have done their home work before the announcement that they are going to build the models. There is some gamble in any production run, but it is reduced if you know the market demands. Larry www.llxlocomotives.com |
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Post by WP 257 on Dec 19, 2014 6:04:32 GMT -8
Model trains take more than 3 weeks from China to your importer's door.
They can (and have recently) lost two weeks with a container basically sitting on the dock waiting for U.S. Customs clearance, as reported to me by one manufacturer.
It is more reasonable to assume 4 to 6 weeks from China to importer, for trains.
Also, if the pre-ordered number does not meet the minimum build number then the manufacturer has to make a decision: Is the roadname something which will eventually sell out the balance to justify making the extra units to hit the minimum (PRR big Alcos were still made when the minimum preorder number was not met)? Or is it something that just won't sell, period?
Every road has its devotees, but there are some roads, I'll refrain from mentioning here, that just do not sell, regardless of what some of us want to believe. There are some that I cannot believe sell as well as they do, and others that were much larger systems that do not sell. The manufacturers also have their individual opinions, based upon past history, of what did not sell for them in the past. It's not always a case of limited advertisement as some would like to believe.
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Post by John Sheridan on Dec 19, 2014 6:22:04 GMT -8
The wild card here us the large dealers. MJ Kline has over 300 Athearn a Genesis engines in stock. Not all variations are available, but most are and dome numbers are 3 and 4 deep. I'm sure they are not the only ones that inventory a large number of the engines. Yes a pre order will guarantee a model, but is it absolutely necessary? Maybe in some cases, but I wonder. There is a minimum number of any production that is required for the profit picture to be right, even at these prices. Thus, I'm convinced that individuals of one or two do not make a difference. After all, do they pick the pick the road names and numbers before or after the announcement? I would guess each road number is slated to be produced in numbers of 100-200 units. The pre order may increase the number of a given road, but to make a profit they have to make a minimum number of each variation. To leave one out would require more of the others. They have done their home work before the announcement that they are going to build the models. There is some gamble in any production run, but it is reduced if you know the market demands. Larry www.llxlocomotives.comThe wildcard rule these days is that the first run at least must pay for the tooling, design, & production costs - in other word you needs to at-least break-even. Subsequent runs are pure-profit minus the manufacturing/assembly/delivery costs. Is there a minimum ? In most cases yes. The minimum is largely based on the cost to manufacture times the number of units to break-even on the first run. How many of each roadname to be created depends of course on projected sales. Units like UP/SP/SF are produced in large amounts simply because they have a large base of people who will buy them. Other more esoteric roadnames are produced in lower number with a minimum of 50 units. Of course the amount also depends on the number of pre-orders as you mention above. There is another factor to consider: the costs for the distribution chain need to be factored-in. You have a manufacture cost, Distributor cost, dealer cost & finally the MSRP. Companies like Exactrail have cut this cost out completely as they only sell direct. Makes for bigger profits for the company but does cut-down the amount of units sold. With freight cars this can work well as you will move quite a few units at a fairly reasonable price-point. With locomotives, this can work but you would need a much higher investment up-front & hope you don't manufacture a dud. |
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Post by John Sheridan on Dec 19, 2014 6:41:31 GMT -8
Model trains take more than 3 weeks from China to your importer's door. They can (and have recently) lost two weeks with a container basically sitting on the dock waiting for U.S. Customs clearance, as reported to me by one manufacturer. It is more reasonable to assume 4 to 6 weeks from China to importer, for trains. True. I forgot about customs. Thanks for the correction. I was speaking in terms of no delays, dock strikes, etc. If there is enough in the queue to justify the run, typically they will run it just to test the waters. However, if it flops you will not likely see that roadname run again for that particular model. I just witnessed a recent model announcement that I would have bet the farm that it would be a huge seller but ended-up almost being shelved or worse cancelled. Of course they price increase on the pre-order I think is what pushed many people from "buy-buy!" into the "wait n' see" arena for this model. When it hits the streets next year we will find out. The pre-order world can be a harsh mistress at times. Yes, it is interesting in some roadnames do extremely well even though they are long gone & forgotten. The New Haven railroad is one of those roads who have a very devoted fanbase. However, New Haven modelers are a finicky bunch as well. If the model is accurate, New Haven modelers will gladly open their wallets & buy as many as they can. If the model is a foobie - forget it they won't touch it. Southern Railroads & midwestern roadnames generally do not sell many units although they have a huge fanbase for some reason. However, roads like the Pennsy, SP, UP, ATSF are guaranteed winners. |
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