Diesel phases

[edwardsutorik]

Every once in awhile (or more often), someone has a question about diesel phases. It seems to me that that info should be widely available, but it doesn't seem to be. The only source I know of is:

www.trainweb.org/jaydeet/rosters.htm

and it is conspicuously missing GP7/9's and F's.

So, does anyone know of other places that are storing this info. And, if such places don't turn up, is someone willing to do some compiling and place it here.

Perhaps Donnell can pin it to the top, as he seems to be doing for other topics.


Ed

[calzephyr]

Jul 8, 2012 16:02:28 GMT -8 edwardsutorik said:

Every once in awhile (or more often), someone has a question about diesel phases. It seems to me that that info should be widely available, but it doesn't seem to be. The only source I know of is:

www.trainweb.org/jaydeet/rosters.htm

and it is conspicuously missing GP7/9's and F's.

So, does anyone know of other places that are storing this info. And, if such places don't turn up, is someone willing to do some compiling and place it here.

Perhaps Donnell can pin it to the top, as he seems to be doing for other topics.


Ed

Diesel phases were invented by us, the people who watched the locomotives, not the manufacturer. The F units are a prime example since EMD used the F number to upgrade and advertise to the railroads, but several changes took place in each production run. I agree, it is nice to know the difference and there are some out there that can give us answers. The F units are the most written about since the phases we talk about have been published in MR more than once. This does not always include the little known changes by the individual railroads.
Even the latest SD70Ace models have several phases now if you can spot them, but EMD still calls them by the same designation. Go figure that one.
I believe some of the diesel books do show the difference between the early and later Geep series locomotives. They did change over the production run and each railroad might have an early or late unit depending on the date of the purchase.

One of the best web sites for EMD dates is listed below. It does not include phases since EMD did not consider the unit any different during a production run as far as I can tell. If you know when certain size fans were changed or certain details, then you can look at the production dates for your railroad and determine what details that unit might have.

www.trainweb.org/emdloco/index.html

Larry

[Judge Doom]

IIRC, the GP7/9 phases go something like:

GP7 Ph1 - x4 36" rad fans, Small 36" DB fan, side skirts solid. Louvres under cab and on battery box, hood louvres spread out. Batten strips around centre hood section.
GP7 Ph2 - x4 36" rad fans, lower hood doors under DB section (#1 engineroom door still tall), 48" DB fan, slots cut in side skirts. Louvres under cab and on battery box, hood louvres spread out. Batten strips around centre hood section.

GP9 Ph1 - x4 36" rad fans, 2x2 engineroom louvres, bolted handrail stanchions like a GP7, louvres under cab access panels & battery box. Batten strips only around DB section. Engineroom doors all same (lower) height, #1 engineroom door flipped on either side. Non-DB GP9's have the same height engineroom doors as DB units now.
GP9 Ph2 - x4 36" rad fans, 2x3 engineroom louvres, half the louvres now on the generator hood doors, newer rolled handrail stanchions, louvres only on battery box
GP9 Ph3 - x2 48" rad fans, 2x3 engineroom louvres, different side skirt profile, battery box louvres now 2 small sets

GP18 - just like a GP9 Ph3, but with different radiator side shutters and other minor changes.

But the thing is, there's phase overlapping. GP9 Ph1's with rolled instead of bolted stanchions, GP9 Ph1's with GP7 Ph2 style hoods, GP7 Ph2's with GP9 Ph1 style hoods, poling pockets, etc. There's no solid phase changepoints as various things were changed over time by EMD.

[calzephyr]

Jul 8, 2012 17:33:21 GMT -8 Judge Doom said:

IIRC, the GP7/9 phases go something like:

GP7 Ph1 - x4 36" rad fans, Small 36" DB fan, side skirts solid. Louvres under cab and on battery box, hood louvres spread out. Batten strips around centre hood section.
GP7 Ph2 - x4 36" rad fans, lower hood doors under DB section (#1 engineroom door still tall), 48" DB fan, slots cut in side skirts. Louvres under cab and on battery box, hood louvres spread out. Batten strips around centre hood section.

GP9 Ph1 - x4 36" rad fans, 2x2 engineroom louvres, bolted handrail stanchions like a GP7, louvres under cab access panels & battery box. Batten strips only around DB section. Engineroom doors all same (lower) height, #1 engineroom door flipped on either side. Non-DB GP9's have the same height engineroom doors as DB units now.
GP9 Ph2 - x4 36" rad fans, 2x3 engineroom louvres, half the louvres now on the generator hood doors, newer rolled handrail stanchions, louvres only on battery box
GP9 Ph3 - x2 48" rad fans, 2x3 engineroom louvres, different side skirt profile, battery box louvres now 2 small sets

GP18 - just like a GP9 Ph3, but with different radiator side shutters and other minor changes.

But the thing is, there's phase overlapping. GP9 Ph1's with rolled instead of bolted stanchions, GP9 Ph1's with GP7 Ph2 style hoods, GP7 Ph2's with GP9 Ph1 style hoods, poling pockets, etc. There's no solid phase changepoints as various things were changed over time by EMD.

Thanks for the update. I knew someone would have the phase information.
The phase information for all of the F units was in a MR not too many years ago. I probably can find it in time!
Larry

[spookyac47]

Although geared more towards the websites intent, Jerry Britton's Keystone Crossings website has the following for F units of the Pennsylvania Railroad

kc.pennsyrr.com/motiveops/spotting_f.php

[SCL618]

There is a date range that can be used to identify the proper phase of the unit and the spotting features it has. All information courtesy of Scott Chatfield.

GP7:

Phase I 10/1949 - 11/1950:
No box atop walkway behind left side of cab (short hood forward), all 86" engine room doors, solid skirts, sloped plates on pilot, hood straps extend down to walkways, dynamic brakes not an option

Phase II 6/50 - 3/53:
Addition of box on walkway behind left side of cab, all 86" engine room doors on non-DB equipped units, D/B equipped have one 86" door and six 82" doors under the DB blister, slotted skirt after 03/1952 ONLY on units with 1200 gallon or larger fuel tanks or water tanks, 36" dynamic brake fan on units so equipped from 10/1950 - 08/1952, 48" DB fan after 08/1952, sloped pilot plates on units built from 06/50 to 07/52, flat pilot plates with MU hose boxes after 07/52

Phase III 03/53 - 12/53:
all seven engine room doors are 82" regardless of dynamic brake option, hood straps end a top of engine room doors on units with DBs, no hood straps on non-DB units

Phase IV 04/54:
Specific to MP's last order which have GP9 Phase I car bodies. These are considered to be GP9s equipped with a 567C prime mover and were derated to 1500 HP using the GP7s 4" radiator cores while production built GP9s have 6" radiator cores.

GP9:

Phase Ia 06/54-12/54:
pipe handrail stanchions, louvers on first two engine room doors, four louvers on the first two doors behind the cab on the right side (generator room doors), and three louvers on the first two doors on the left side, battery box has a single louver set, but no louvers on the doors under the cab. Many Phase I units were soon retrofitted with louvers on the third engine room door.

Phase Ib 06/54 - 2/57:
channel handrail stanchions, louvers same as Phase Ia

Phase II 1/55 - 02/57:
louvers added to the third engine room door, and the generator room doors only have one louver set on each door.

Phase IIa 02/57 - 07/57:
thinner skirts over the fuel tank, fuel fill moved up to the front of tank (on most orders), most units have a late Pyle headlight (except PRR, FEC, and Canadian GP9s), fuel tank designs changed so the top corner is rounded and the 1300, 1700, and 2350 gallon versions differ in length, not width, and passenger units have the water tank behind the fuel tank, not flanking it.

Phase IIIb 08/57 - 11/59 (08/63 in Canada)
48" radiator fans on most units, much larger winterization hatch when ordered.

GP18:
The GP18 started out as the Phase III GP9 car body except for having slatted radiator grills instead of chicken wire. In 1962, the sill was changed to match that of the GP30 and all units received 15" air reservoirs under the sill regardless of fuel tank size. Low noses were offered from the start buy were not common until late in production.

Phase I 12/59 - 01/62:
slatted radiator grills, 48" radiator fans on most orders, thin GP9 Phase III side sill skirt.

Phase II 02/62 - 10/63:
notched side sill (GP30 style), 15" air reservoirs mounted lengthwise on all units, flat top (GP30 style) radiator fans on most orders.

Withers Publications released a GP18 book which also contains some insightful information on this model and clarifies some of the spotting features.

[Judge Doom]

That covers the GP7/GP9 phases quite nicely. However, there are always exceptions. Here are a few I'm aware of on the Canadian manufacturing side:

Toronto, Hamilton & Buffalo's 3 GP9's were early production and shared the previous GP7 carbody (86" hood doors and delivered with GP7 louvres, very early on retrofitted with Ph1 GP9 louvres).

Early CP GP9's had Phase 1 louvres and that GP7 Phase 2 DB hood (with the large 86" #1 engineroom door) which changed mid-order. Same with some QNSL GP9's.

And there were a bunch of late Phase 3 GP9's (QNSL, ACR) with the GP20/GP30 style low-mounted air tanks and the frame cutouts. GMD kept making GP9's when EMD was doing GP20's and GP30's.


IMHO, ultimately it comes down to using whatever of the basic "phases" is closest to your chosen prototype, and making the changes from there. Attempting to add c,d,e,f...phase suffixes in an effort to categorize every single variation would be maddening

[edwardsutorik]

Jul 9, 2012 6:49:17 GMT -8 SCL618 said:

There is a date range that can be used to identify the proper phase of the unit and the spotting features it has. All information courtesy of Scott Chatfield.

GP7:

Phase I 10/1949 - 11/1950:
No box atop walkway behind left side of cab (short hood forward), all 86" engine room doors, solid skirts, sloped plates on pilot, hood straps extend down to walkways, dynamic brakes not an option

Phase II 6/50 - 3/53:
Addition of box on walkway behind left side of cab, all 86" engine room doors on non-DB equipped units, D/B equipped have one 86" door and six 82" doors under the DB blister, slotted skirt after 03/1952 ONLY on units with 1200 gallon or larger fuel tanks or water tanks, 36" dynamic brake fan on units so equipped from 10/1950 - 08/1952, 48" DB fan after 08/1952, sloped pilot plates on units built from 06/50 to 07/52, flat pilot plates with MU hose boxes after 07/52

Phase III 03/53 - 12/53:
all seven engine room doors are 82" regardless of dynamic brake option, hood straps end a top of engine room doors on units with DBs, no hood straps on non-DB units

Phase IV 04/54:
Specific to MP's last order which have GP9 Phase I car bodies. These are considered to be GP9s equipped with a 567C prime mover and were derated to 1500 HP using the GP7s 4" radiator cores while production built GP9s have 6" radiator cores.

GP9:

Phase Ia 06/54-12/54:
pipe handrail stanchions, louvers on first two engine room doors, four louvers on the first two doors behind the cab on the right side (generator room doors), and three louvers on the first two doors on the left side, battery box has a single louver set, but no louvers on the doors under the cab. Many Phase I units were soon retrofitted with louvers on the third engine room door.

Phase Ib 06/54 - 2/57:
channel handrail stanchions, louvers same as Phase Ia

Phase II 1/55 - 02/57:
louvers added to the third engine room door, and the generator room doors only have one louver set on each door.

Phase IIa 02/57 - 07/57:
thinner skirts over the fuel tank, fuel fill moved up to the front of tank (on most orders), most units have a late Pyle headlight (except PRR, FEC, and Canadian GP9s), fuel tank designs changed so the top corner is rounded and the 1300, 1700, and 2350 gallon versions differ in length, not width, and passenger units have the water tank behind the fuel tank, not flanking it.

Phase IIIb 08/57 - 11/59 (08/63 in Canada)
48" radiator fans on most units, much larger winterization hatch when ordered.

GP18:
The GP18 started out as the Phase III GP9 car body except for having slatted radiator grills instead of chicken wire. In 1962, the sill was changed to match that of the GP30 and all units received 15" air reservoirs under the sill regardless of fuel tank size. Low noses were offered from the start buy were not common until late in production.

Phase I 12/59 - 01/62:
slatted radiator grills, 48" radiator fans on most orders, thin GP9 Phase III side sill skirt.

Phase II 02/62 - 10/63:
notched side sill (GP30 style), 15" air reservoirs mounted lengthwise on all units, flat top (GP30 style) radiator fans on most orders.

Withers Publications released a GP18 book which also contains some insightful information on this model and clarifies some of the spotting features.

Clarification, please:

I note, for the GP9, there's a Phase IIa and a Phase IIIb. But there's no Phase IIIa. Whusup?



Ed