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Post by riogrande on Jul 12, 2012 16:37:50 GMT -8
I just noticed that Walthers is offering a new coal gondola which remind me of the old MDC (now Athearn RTR) coal gons. The add says build an affordable unit train - they come in six packs for $129.95 MSRP, about $21.50 each. I guess if you can get them at a modest discount that will be affordable by todays standard.
Does anyone know when these were first used and where?
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Post by atsfan on Jul 12, 2012 16:42:19 GMT -8
Link sir? Thanks  |
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Post by riogrande on Jul 12, 2012 17:21:01 GMT -8
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Post by fr8kar on Jul 12, 2012 20:22:41 GMT -8
The description says in service 1970s to present. I don't know where they would be in service as coal gondolas in the present day. They are abundant as scrap gondolas now, generally for MOW service as waste tie cars, but sometimes in metal scrap service.
I'm most familiar with these cars as decorated for the Fayette Power Project, whose disctinctive green and yellow cars made a striking looking train in the 80s. IIRC, they were built in the late 70s and operated until maybe ten years ago. These cars operated between Powder River coal loadouts and the Fayette power plant near Austin, Texas.
As far as the other roads are concerned, I don't know much about the operation history other than to say the BN cars used to haul coal from the 70s through the 90s and now are primarily in MOW or scrap service. The aluminum bathtub gondola pretty much spelled the end for these steel cars.
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Post by drolsen on Jul 12, 2012 20:27:12 GMT -8
This car is a model of a Pullman-Standard 4000 cuft gondola that was very common in coal service out west. A lot of them have ended up in secondhand scrap service all over the country, like these: COGX 101424: drolsen.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1396852I know a lot of people (including me) who were very disappointed to see this prototype represented by such a crude, baseline model. Many Western modelers were waiting for someone to do this car and were hoping for a better-detailed model like most on the market these days. I know that Walthers was looking for a new car to offer in their Trainline series, but this model costs as much as some ExactRail cars that have much better detail, and it's an important prototype that deserves a better model. I may buy one undecorated car and see if I can upgrade the details, but I'm going to wait and hope that someone else, like ExactRail or Intermountain, does this car justice eventually. Dave |
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Post by fr8kar on Jul 12, 2012 22:35:51 GMT -8
I can't imagine anyone would touch the PS 4000 now, Dave. I am among the many who were disappointed in Walthers half-hearted attempt at this car and who made them aware of my feelings. However, it is what it is and I will make do. I have all the Athearn FPPX cars, several LCRX cars I upgraded from the old MDC Thrall model and I will have to get the FPPX cars from Walthers.
Instead of the PS 4000, perhaps someone will do the Ortner 4000cf coal gon. I could certainly handle several of those.
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Post by upcsx on Jul 13, 2012 4:45:52 GMT -8
I have one and it has a built date 1960.
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Post by drolsen on Jul 13, 2012 9:04:11 GMT -8
I can't imagine anyone would touch the PS 4000 now, Dave. Normally, I would agree, but in this case, I think there's still enough of a market for a higher-end PS gon. Looking at Bethgons / Coalporters, for example, there are a number of versions out there, and I think both the Walthers Bethgon with molded details and the Athearn version with separate grab irons have both done ok. The PS gon is an important one for '70s - '90s modelers, and any contemporary modeler could use a few of them for scrap service, so I think a model with separate ladders and grab irons would sell pretty well to the people who passed on the Walthers model. I think ExactRail would be a good candidate for this model - they've gone up against Walthers previously with the Evans 4780 covered hopper, and I think the ExactRail model's details won a lot more people over. Unfortunately, I think ExactRail already applied a lot of PS paint schemes to their FMC 4000 gon as stand-in models, so that would be "awkward" for them. Like this one? FURX 961202: drolsen.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1614584I think that's a good candidate for a model, but I don't know much about owners. I was under the impression that the PS gon could be done in a lot more paint schemes. Still, I'm in favor of any quality coal gondola model, since they are needed in large numbers by whoever models that location / era. Dave |
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Post by fr8kar on Jul 13, 2012 10:12:12 GMT -8
I'm not sure how many more coal schemes the PS 4000 can be offered in, but for MOW and scrap service there are plenty. My thinking that Exactrail wouldn't touch the PS 4000 stems from the fact that they already did the FMC coal gon in addition to the existence of the Walthers model.
That is the Ortner car I'm thinking of. They came in both a steel and aluminum version. Another one I see in scrap service today.
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Post by riogrande on Jul 13, 2012 13:31:25 GMT -8
I can understand why a manufacturer would try to make a lower cost unit train coal car - simply because to make a unit train of 25-30 or more cars more affordable the cost needs to be limited. I remember seeing the Tangent UP quad hoppers and frankly I wanted a bunch, and they are gorgeous but I missed out on tnem partially due to cost. And from what I understand, they did run on the D&RGW.
Of course you can't please everyone but some can rationalize unit coal gons don't need the level of detail due to the fact that they are seen in mass as a train and not scrutenized up close. I have mixed emotions, I still need to beef up some of my current unit coal train fleet and even at costs from a few years ago, it's still going to be a good chunk of change.
I wonder if any of this Walthers PS 4000 ran in D&RGW country?
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Post by drolsen on Jul 14, 2012 2:04:08 GMT -8
I'm not sure how many more coal schemes the PS 4000 can be offered in, but for MOW and scrap service there are plenty. I just found this PS 4000 gon roster that Jim E. and Jim K. on the Modern Freight Car List compiled last fall back in 2008, with links to some photo examples: BN 575360-575759 (400), lot 9770, PS 5=6-75, 47-1 IL, white stripe on rotary end, white rotary end on repaints CEPX 100, 125, 150, 175, 200 (5), lot 9910, PS 2-79, 47-0 IL, double rotary CEPX 225, 250, 275, 300, 325, 350 (6), lot 9910A, PS 12-79, 47-0 IL, double rotary CEPX 1000-1358 (359), lot 9910, PS 1=2-79, 47-0 IL, yellow rotary end, to JTIX www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=27397CEPX 1359-1836 (478), lot 9910A, PS 10=12-79, 47-0 IL, yellow rotary end, to JTIX gelwood.railfan.net/misc-c/cepx1442ars.jpgwww.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=472978gelwood.railfan.net/misc-d/jtix100030amg.jpgCPOX 1200-1899 (700), lot 1083, PS 6=8-80, 48-1 IL (typo?), yellow rotary end, to DJJX, JTIX, TCTX, SOO, IMRL gelwood.railfan.net/misc-frt/cpox1804aja.jpggelwood.railfan.net/misc-frt/tctx172adm.jpgDEEX 5501-5800 (300), lot 9801, PS 6=7-75, 47-1 IL, red-orange rotary end, to DJJX gelwood.railfan.net/misc-d/djjx4632ags.jpgDEEX 6001-6593 (581), lot 9823, PS 3=4-76, 47-1 IL, white stripe on rotary end, white or pale yellow rotary end on repaints, to DRGW, DJJX, SIRX www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=24202www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=9370gelwood.railfan.net/misc-d/djjx8562ags.jpggelwood.railfan.net/misc-d/djjx8447amg.jpggelwood.railfan.net/misc-d/djjx8494ags.jpgDEEX 8001-8007 (7), lot 9823, PS 3-76, 47-1 IL, double rotary FPPX 1510-1514 (5), lot 9957, PS 10-79, 46-11 IL, double rotary FPPX 2000-2244 (245), lot 9957, PS 9=10-79, 46-11 IL, dark green w/yellow rotary end PROX 102600-102674 (75), lot 9860, PS 6-75, 47-1 IL PTLX 70 (1), lot 9830, PS 6-74, 47-1 IL, demo car SRPX 167-221 (55), lot 9997, PS 1-79, 47-0 IL SRPX 222-283 (62), lot 9997A, PS 10-79, 47-0 IL ----? (60), lot 1167, PS -81, to RAWX 100-101 & 200=262 by 1/86 gelwood.railfan.net/misc-d/jtix100332amm.jpgwww.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=4982www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=26947www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=24201www.krunk.org/~joeshaw/pics/pvt-hop/jtix/jtix100310.jpggelwood.railfan.net/misc-frt/jtix100276sea.jpgNote that there are some variations in interior length, but they're small and wouldn't be noticeable on the Walthers model (although I'm just curious which prototype they based their model off of). I just ordered two undecorated cars to try superdetailing. I'd like to find a car in scrap service in 1998, if there were any. Maybe these DJJX cars are a good bet (this Fallen Flags photo is from 2001, and the DJJX lettering looks like it has a couple years of weathering on it at least): DJJX 8494: gelwood.railfan.net/misc-d/djjx8494ags.jpgI wonder if any of this Walthers PS 4000 ran in D&RGW country? The Fayette Power Project (FPPX) cars would be your best bet - I think they ran on the Joint Line, but if not, then through Denver at least. I think they came from Powder River and they ran to a power plant outside Austin, TX if I recall correctly, through Oklahoma(?). Unfortunately, if the green Walthers used looks anything like the photo on their website, it's WAY to light: www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/910-60705The prototype cars look almost black in the early photos I've seen, and the stored, faded cars I saw in Texas in 2010 were still much darker than the model photo. Dave |
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Post by fr8kar on Jul 14, 2012 11:23:24 GMT -8
The FPPX cars were operated by BN and Katy. Bill Phillips took many photographs of Katy diesels and posted them to Fallen Flags, which is an excellent source of information on where the FPPX trains ran in the 80s since Katy SD40-2s were often on the point. It would appear from the photos that this train ran over a couple different routes. There are photos documenting the trip down the Katy in western Oklahoma. There are also many photos showing the train on what is today the UP Duncan Subdivision in Texas (former Rock Island, at the time of the photos was owned by MKT). Then there are photos of the train on the BN Wichita Falls Sub., which runs parallel to the Duncan Sub. for a several miles. Other photos show the train crossing the Trinity River on the FW&D and there is another photo showing the empty train coming out of BN's Downtown Yard in Fort Worth. Anyway, based on these and other photos taken along the route, I think the train was operated by BN out of the Powder River, which would put it on the BN through Alliance NE, Sterling, Denver and Trinidad CO, Dalhart TX, Amarillo and Fort Worth TX. The train would then operate over the Katy through Hillsboro, Waco, Temple, Taylor and LaGrange, TX to the plant. Here's a builder photo of the PS car: freight.railfan.ca/cgi-bin/image.pl?i=fppx1514&o=fppxIt looks like both Athearn and Walthers got the cars too light, but for my time period some liberal weathering is in order anyway. As these cars were operated into the 90s, they got really dirty and lost a lot of appeal for me. Now this train is a solid string of aluminum Bethgons completely devoid of any character. |
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Post by riogrande on Jul 14, 2012 11:25:27 GMT -8
Yes, it looks like the Join Line is the only D&RGW area where those might have operated. I probably won't be getting any of these but instead found another set of NORX cars left over from the Athearn production. I need to beef up that train as I only had 15 so far.
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Post by atsfan on Jul 14, 2012 18:48:12 GMT -8
Not sure how "affordable" they are. Personally I do not find those car that attractive to want to spend a bunch of money to model them. They sure look like one of the old MDC Roundhouse cars that you had to glue all the ladders on  |
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Post by riogrande on Jul 14, 2012 20:03:26 GMT -8
Not sure how "affordable" they are. Personally I do not find those car that attractive to want to spend a bunch of money to model them. They sure look like one of the old MDC Roundhouse cars that you had to glue all the ladders on The term is "relatively" affordable by new today standards. With newer freight cars at MSRP $30-40+, those cars work out to $26 MSRP, so if you can get a discount maybe about $20 ea, which seems to be the new "cheap" RTR price. In this case, they appear to have molded on ladders so the MDC Thrall gons look a tad more detailed as do the Athearn RTR version. |
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Post by fr8kar on Jul 14, 2012 22:30:17 GMT -8
If the goal is to have a detailed coal gondola, you'd probably do well to pick up the Exactrail FMC 4000 cuft gons or even the upgraded MDC Athearn Thrall 4000 cuft gons. If the goal is to have a PS 4000 cuft gondola, right now Walthers is the only option.
If I were looking for a train that rolled down the Joint Line in Denver, I'd probably cobble together a train of BN gondolas from Athearn and Exactrail. They are a sure thing, regardless of the utility customer, for anyone modeling the 80s.
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Post by drolsen on Jul 15, 2012 2:14:37 GMT -8
If the goal is to have a detailed coal gondola, you'd probably do well to pick up the Exactrail FMC 4000 cuft gons or even the upgraded MDC Athearn Thrall 4000 cuft gons. If the goal is to have a PS 4000 cuft gondola, right now Walthers is the only option. In fairness to Walthers, the ExactRail FMC 4000 gon has about the same level of detail as the Walthers PS 4000, although the ExactRail underbody details appear to be more complete. The ExactRail model has the same style of molded ladders and grabs, but they are finer than the Walthers car: www.exactrail.com/fmc-4000-gondola-undecoratedI'm a huge fan of the upgraded Athearn / ex-MDC gondolas - the Thrall and the Berwick Bathtub, as well as their other cars. I think they are the perfect level of detail for a unit train with their separate ladders but simplified underbody detail to keep the price down. I model CSX in Maryland, but I always liked the Utility Fuels trains on the Joint Line when I lived in Colorado, so I had to collect a full train of Athearn Berwick Bathtubs and Atlas Coalveyors, with three BN / BNSF SD70MACs for power. The Athearn Thralls are also an important part of my future plans - Potomac Electric Power (PEPX) ran trains through the area that I'm modeling with Thrall gons mixed in with other hoppers and other types of gons. Athearn was nice enough to produce those a couple years ago, but they apparently didn't sell well, probably because of the limited fan base in the DC area. Dave |
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Post by riogrande on Jul 15, 2012 7:19:42 GMT -8
Dave, thanks for posting the obove detailed informations. I too am a big fan of the Athearn RTR unit grain coal cars and have 30 of the 5-bays for CSDU and about 95 of the Thrall gons, and have plans to buy more (just ordered another 5 pack). Hopefully you'll be able to find the PEPX gons - and who knows how long it will be before Athearn runs more Hi side gons?
As for the Walthers Thralls, they look more like the ExactRail gons rather than the Athearn/MDC to me. The Athearn/MDC Thrall has a distinct sloping side with much beefier ribs.
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Post by drolsen on Jul 15, 2012 7:39:05 GMT -8
Hopefully you'll be able to find the PEPX gons - and who knows how long it will be before Athearn runs more Hi side gons? I picked up all three sets of PEPX gons plus the one single car when they were first released, and about a year later, I was able to find three additional sets that I'll have to renumber eventually. I'm going to keep my eye out for another set or two, but there are only 80 of the prototype PEPX Thrall gons, so my 31 are probably as many as I need for my future layout, since I'll need to mix them with PEPX hoppers and Bethgons. I've taken detail photos of several of these cars so I can eventually add some of the underbody brake details to the models: PEPX 62: drolsen.rrpicturearchives.net/rsPicture.aspx?id=496328One other thing I plan to experiment with is removing the thick top chord on the sides of the Athearn model and replacing it with a thin strip of styrene to better match the PEPX cars. Not sure why I like these cars so much, but I think it's because they represent one of the few utility-owned coal trains in the area I model, unlike out West, where there seems to be tons of them. Dave |
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Post by nw611 on Jul 15, 2012 7:49:15 GMT -8
I am surprised that in this thread about unit coal trains many of the major manufacturers were mentioned (Walthers, Athearn/MDC, ExactRail, Intermountain, Tangent, Atlas) with the exception of BLMA who made an excellent coal car, the NS TopGon, at an acceptable list price ($ 29), compared to $ 34 of the latest Athearn RTR BethGons.
Maybe it's because Southeastern stuff does not sell. Ciao.
Raffaele
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Post by riogrande on Jul 15, 2012 8:15:10 GMT -8
I basically followed a similar plan when the Athearn RTR Thrall gons came out, I was sure to buy at least one set of each number set, and in most cases an extra set for a minimum of 20 cars. But there were so many to collect that would be of interest to a D&RGW modeler that it was hard to keep up - but certainly a boon.
I ended up with 25 UP and 5 D&RGW coal liner cars for a train of 30 (they ran together). Unfortunately when Athearn made a 2nd run of the UP cars I didn't get any cause I already had 25 so 10 are duplicate numbers although I'd rather replace the duplicates with sets from the latter run. If any one bought duplicates from the 2nd run, a swap would solve the numbering problem.
I've also collected 20 of the blue end D&RGW gons, but they were only on the roster from 1980-1984, although I could add another 5 if I can find them. Only got 15 of the NORX but recently found another set. As for the PSCX red end Thralls, got 25 of those - haven't seen any more for a long time. They did run with a similar style gon with twin vertical ribs but nobody makes them afaik and in latter years they ran with gons similar in style to the slope end stop gons but were black with red ends - no bottom shoots. I've got photo's of the PSCX train in Utah of mixed Thralls and the slow end gons - Walthers made a model which is a good stand-in I think.
Anyhow, for purposes of modeling unit trains on a home layout, it seems 25 to 30 cars would create the appearance of a long train since we generally don't have the space to run 80-100 car trains. One guy at the Timonium show last year ran a D&RGW unit coal trains with 100 CSDU/CSDPU 5-bay cars with 4 tunnel motors on the front and 4 more in the train - impressive and prototypical but on a large modular layout.
Raffaele - so far the discussion has been limited to coal gondola's similar in appearance to the Walthers gon, gons of the style that were operated primarily in the late 1960's thru the 1980's. The Top Gon's and similar style are way too new for me and I don't have much interest - but feel free to start a topic involving them and more "modern" era unit coal trains.
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Post by drolsen on Jul 15, 2012 8:18:58 GMT -8
Raffaele - I love the TopGons and if I was an NS modeler, I'd have a 100 of them. Unfortunately, they never make it onto CSX tracks in the area I model (or anywhere else that I know of), so I have no use for them at all. I still bought 6 just so I could have some, since I think the prototype is really interesting, and I'll find some excuse to put them in a train, but I can't justify a unit train of them. If BLMA produces a correct CSX black Bethlehem / Raceland Bethgon, I'll buy 200 of them (seriously).
Dave
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Post by nw611 on Jul 15, 2012 12:45:52 GMT -8
Dave, I know that you are an expert researcher about freight cars and I Know that the TopGons were built starting from older hoppers.
Can you tell me from which cars they were rebuilt and if anybody makes them ? Thanks.
Raffaele
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Post by drolsen on Jul 16, 2012 0:45:23 GMT -8
Raffaele - I appreciate the compliment, but I'm really not a very experienced researcher outside of CSX rolling stock topics. However, I did learn while studying engineering that the most successful managers are the ones who know the right person to ask for information! I try to apply that to researching freight cars. My normal source for information is the Modern Freight Car List on Yahoo Groups, but I couldn't find much info about the TopGon program there. I did find this post on Trainorders from 2004 written by "NSTopHat" (Russ G.), who I know is a knowledgeable NS modeler and railfan: "NS' TopGon program was started when rotary dump operations were becoming vogue, in the late 80's and early 90's. NS' Rebody program started with replacing the body of H11 and H12 class coal cars built by the N&W in '60's and '70's, some 27,700+ all told. There were roughly 8,000 that were rebuilt with a 3 bay dump bottom, (H11_R's, insert A-E, i.e. H11BR). Between 1992 and 1998, there were 13,800+ TopGons built from old H11's and H12's (G84R-G86R and G88R-G93R). Since 1998, there were another 3,000+ TopGons (G98R-G101R) that were rebuilt from Southern's former coal car fleet, until the program ended ~2000." The N&W H11 series cars are very similar to the Bowser 100-ton 3-bay hopper model. Here are some model examples built by my friend Dan Bourque, who is a fantastic freight car kitbasher and scratchbuilder: 100T H-11 kitbashed from Bowser kit (lowered height of sides): appalachianrailroadmodeling.com/modelphotos/nwh112db.jpg100T H-11-1 rebuild (styrene strip added to simulate raised car sides): appalachianrailroadmodeling.com/modelphotos/nwh11-1bdb.jpg100T H-11E (standard Bowser kit detailed and painted/weathered): appalachianrailroadmodeling.com/modelphotos/nwh11e2db.jpgThe H12 is very similar to the Bachmann 100-ton hopper, which is a couple feet short in length, if I recall correctly, but otherwise matches the overall details. Here's a model that I built from the Bachmann model, superdetailed with wire grabs and other parts: forum.atlasrr.com/forum/data/drolsen/2007919231333_DavidOlsen.jpgHowever, having said that, my understanding (which appears to be confirmed by Russ's post on Trainorders that I quoted above) is that these hoppers were basically stripped down to the frames and new bodies built for the TopGon program, so there isn't really anything recognizable on the TopGons from their original beginnings. Dave |
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Post by nw611 on Jul 16, 2012 4:31:07 GMT -8
Thank you, Dave. Nice job on the Bachmann hopper. Now I know that N&W H11 hoppers, that Bowser made also in NS paint scheme, and TopGons did not coexist. Another question to you and Andy (EL3637). Did the N&W hoppers in Bicentennial paint scheme really exist ? Ciao. Raffaele
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Post by riogrande on Jul 16, 2012 15:57:07 GMT -8
Bachmanns Silver Series hoppers were pretty nice. I considered buying some but they got the wrong paint scheme for the D&RGW, which should not have had the stacked logo but intead were re-stincelled.
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Post by buffalobill on Jul 16, 2012 18:39:13 GMT -8
Dave: Very nice job on the Bachmann Hopper. I think its hands down, the nicest freight car project that started as a Botchman HO product I have ever seen.
Bill
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Post by drolsen on Jul 16, 2012 22:42:34 GMT -8
Raffaele and Bill - Thanks for the comments. I was partly motivated to do that hopper because, like riogrande, I thought it was basically a decent model, so I wanted to show people what could be done with it by replacing the molded grabs with wire. I also added cross braces to the hopper bay doors and some simple brake piping between the components on the B end, added a Kadee brake wheel and Plano platform, Details West draft gear boxes, DA corner steps, DA air hoses, and Athearn Genesis 100-ton trucks. I plan to do a second one as a CSX ex-Chessie car, since they had some identical cars (built by N&W's Roanoke shops), and their deeper ends provide a nice contrast with all the "regular" Bowser-style Bethlehem Steel-built cars: CSXT 833912: www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=263618I started removing the molded details on that one (the plain hopper body behind the N&W hopper in the previous photo), but I haven't made much progress yet. Dave |
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Post by gbc636 on Jul 17, 2012 11:10:46 GMT -8
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Post by urr617 on Aug 3, 2012 11:11:42 GMT -8
Walthers is showing the Detroit Edison DEEX cars painted black. I'm having troublefinding pictures of these. As far as I know, they were always painted gray.
Dave, you give the link to some photos of these cars, but after they were sent to DJJX.
When would the DEEX cars have been painted in black?
Thanks much,
Joe
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