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Post by calzephyr on Jul 14, 2012 17:52:38 GMT -8
one reason western roads were quick to transition, so I've read is that diesels dont need to stop for water, I bet it evaporates very fast in the desert. That's the railfan BS story. The cold facts is steam was high maintenance(a steam engine started self destruct at speed) and labor intense. The best way to kill labor cost was to dieselized and eliminate thousands of shop craft jobs,close steam repair shops, closed roundhouses, and eliminate turntables. ------------------------ As far as brass,steam engines from United,PFM,Balboa and Sunset was smooth runners. Fact is, the Santa Fe did replace steam from LA to New Mexico first since they had to pull water car trains to many locations on the main line in the desert. This was costly and the water required a lot of chemical type treatement to keep the foaming down. If the water foams in the boiler, the locomotive is useless. And the maintenance of any steam locomotive was always intensive and expensive. It was a natural business idea to replace steam when the diesels arrived with four units that could pull the drawbar out of any of the early box cars. There are some interesting stories how the engineers had to be retrained on diesels. The book "Early Diesel Daze" on the Santa Fe is really interesting. Larry |
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Post by atsfan on Jul 14, 2012 18:58:47 GMT -8
That's the railfan BS story. The cold facts is steam was high maintenance(a steam engine started self destruct at speed) and labor intense. The best way to kill labor cost was to dieselized and eliminate thousands of shop craft jobs,close steam repair shops, closed roundhouses, and eliminate turntables. ------------------------ As far as brass,steam engines from United,PFM,Balboa and Sunset was smooth runners. Fact is, the Santa Fe did replace steam from LA to New Mexico first since they had to pull water car trains to many locations on the main line in the desert. This was costly and the water required a lot of chemical type treatement to keep the foaming down. If the water foams in the boiler, the locomotive is useless. And the maintenance of any steam locomotive was always intensive and expensive. It was a natural business idea to replace steam when the diesels arrived with four units that could pull the drawbar out of any of the early box cars. There are some interesting stories how the engineers had to be retrained on diesels. The book "Early Diesel Daze" on the Santa Fe is really interesting. Larry Add in boiler water chemistry issues besides just getting water at all. How many people were put out of work when steam engines were replaced I wonder? 50,000 ? 100,000? |
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Post by atsfan on Jul 14, 2012 18:59:38 GMT -8
Several good books have said that World War 2 delayed the transition by at least 5 years from starting.
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Post by riogrande on Jul 14, 2012 20:05:45 GMT -8
How many people were put out of work due to computers or other inovations? I'm not sure why that was even brought up - kind of a can o worms.
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Post by mlehman on Jul 15, 2012 9:51:26 GMT -8
I think there's a definite commercial logic to the broad category of "transition era" in that it's generally assumed that there _could_ be both steam and diesel running at the same time. It also includes the transition from 40' boxcars to longer, more specialized rolling stock. Thus, for the manufacturer your product line, advertising, and marketing can target a very broadly defined demographic. Once you move beyond that - forward or backward in time -- you start getting a really definable era. Things just don't mix that well are around the edges between eras. There are distinctive looks that you need to model. I tend to define three eras, excluding narrowgauge and earlier eras. There's the transition (1940-1965), contraction(1965-1990), and expansion/modern (1990-present) eras. I make no claims to this suiting anyone but me, but it also seems a pretty good rough guide to era. I model what I read about and find cool in books. As an infamous bookworm, I read about railroads all over North America and beyond. Also lived in Germany as a teen. The railroad I had most experience with up close was a year living next to the Monon. I do like it and model it some, but my primary interest is the Rio Grande and its narrowgauge. Saw it once in 1967, then not again for several decades, but it just seemed "right" to me. YMMV  |
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Post by atsfan on Jul 15, 2012 11:48:30 GMT -8
How many people were put out of work due to computers or other inovations? I'm not sure why that was even brought up - kind of a can o worms. Just a question nothing more...........  |
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Post by Brakie on Jul 15, 2012 14:09:33 GMT -8
How many people were put out of work due to computers or other inovations? I'm not sure why that was even brought up - kind of a can o worms. Just a question nothing more........... Some PRR facts for general information. I remember my dad and uncles talking about the 5000 plus that lost their jobs at PRR's Columbus steam locomotive back shop-20th Street shops was heavy repair and erecting shops..At one time PRR employed 8,000 men in these shops. According to my Uncle Dutch-"it was just another sign that railroading for a living is going to ---- in a hand basket." |
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Post by craigz on Jul 15, 2012 17:27:42 GMT -8
I would think that the explosion of plastic steam engines suggests that the 'transition era' modeling is more popular than ever...or more possible than ever.
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Post by mlehman on Jul 15, 2012 17:52:41 GMT -8
I would think that the explosion of plastic steam engines suggests that the 'transition era' modeling is more popular than ever...or more possible than ever. Yep, Blackstone hasn't made a diesel...yet.  |
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Post by curtmc on Jul 15, 2012 21:02:56 GMT -8
For some the transition era isn't really over until the fire goes out for the last time on the last steamer...
But the model production is shifting... Many/most of the earlier pre-1960 era models available today have been available for more than 5 years... For example, how many of those "Walthers" Transition era locos were really developed and produced by Walthers as compared to old production Proto units?
If Paul would go back to his lists and place a star beside every model that was first introduced in just the last 5 years, I'd bet the stars on the lower "modern" half would outnumber those on the top "transition" half...
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Post by el3637 on Jul 15, 2012 22:48:34 GMT -8
As far as brass,steam engines from United,PFM,Balboa and Sunset was smooth runners. I have had a few Tenshodo and United steam locos. They are pretty much bullet proof. Find an old one, and about all you need to do is clean it up and add some fresh lube. I have never tried to put DCC in any of them yet, not sure if I ever will. The oldest brass steam I'm planning to put into DCC service is an LMB Niagara. Bought it on ebay a few years back, and I painted the boiler and tender, but it's still apart. I need to put a decent motor in it - something better than the KMT open frame motor. The LMB Niagara is probably the best steam loco KMT ever built. Decent looking and I think I can get it to run well enough to be a DCC fleet loco along with my Key S2, and three BLIs. I also have a 30 year old Key S1B that I've never painted or DCC'd. One other KMT steamer I'm not looking forward to tinkering with is an Alco Models NYC A2 Berkshire. I paid $400 for it... slightly high at the time, I think I bought it in 2001. But where else will you find an A2. I have a soft spot for the wacky thing. It is basically NIB, unpainted, and runs *terrible*. But I think it's mainly a motor problem. I also have a PSC steamer - my only one... it's a B&O Q4B 2-8-2. Unpainted. I normally wouldn't go for something like that by my mom and stepdad picked it up at an open air flea market for.... well, way less than even a BLI Blue Line would cost. It's nice looking, will need help to get it running, but I think it would be a fun project. May or may not be more trouble than the A2 Berk to get it right. Another steamer I had some success with is a Sunset SP 2-10-2. It ran ok, but was underweight and the tender was so light I had to duct tape it to the display track to keep it from blowing away with the AC kicked on  I was real close to ebaying it (factory painted) and decided to try and salvage it. I finally found an opening in the tender and was able to slip in some weight and a decoder, wired up some lights, and added weight to the boiler. It actually runs quite nicely now, although pulling power is so-so. Andy |
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Post by el3637 on Jul 15, 2012 22:51:56 GMT -8
No doubt the transition era is over for real, but we can still run steam and passenger trains on layouts and enjoy them. We still like to run Passenger trains like the new El Cap and it has been gone now for almost 41 years! If we say the transition era is over, why did the recent Walthers El Cap sell in so great numbers?? Well of course you know the answer. It's Santa Fe, and it's big and shiny and cool, and it's pulled by warbonnets. Mine is pulled by Genesis warbonnets rather than the Walthers. I'm sure the Walthers run better, but I have enough Genesis warbonnets to handle the load and then some. And I wouldn't rule out buying more if they make another run in numbers or configurations I don't already have. Andy |
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Post by el3637 on Jul 15, 2012 22:58:01 GMT -8
I would think that the explosion of plastic steam engines suggests that the 'transition era' modeling is more popular than ever...or more possible than ever. BLI has certainly had its issues, but I go against Hoosier Triangle and a lot of other logic when it comes to my BLI steamers. Almost all of them have been good runners right out of the box. Not always the quietest things on rails, even with the sound turned off, but they stay on the track and most of them have decent pulling power. I've gotten more use out of my BLI Niagaras than all the brass ones put together. And without BLI, I can tell you for certain I would not own a PRR Q2, or T1, or J1, or a second M1a - I also have an old Westside M1a I haven't been able to bring myself to part with, although it will need remotoring to DCC it someday. I bought it at the LHS for $170 back around 1979, with a local guy's custom paint job which is actually pretty decent. And without Athearn, I wouldn't have an SP MT-4, and without Intermountain I wouldn't have two AC-12s I can't run. Yet... Andy |
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Post by el3637 on Jul 15, 2012 23:02:15 GMT -8
Yep, Blackstone hasn't made a diesel...yet. I've been eying the Blackstone drop bottom HOn3 gondolas. I have this thing for drop bottom gondygolas... I even have a PBL Sn3 kit of the D&RGW car that I haven't built yet. The HOn3 car would be strictly a display piece, but I might have to buy some track and a loco and caboose and some other cars to go with it........ but I have two brass SP GS gons, a bunch of Red Caboose gons, an Intermountain Caswell, and a whole stack of Ulrich metal kits. Probably my favorite steam era freight car, although I haven't picked a specific favorite among the standard gauge cars. The D&RGW narrow gauge car has 'em all beat in terms of just being a bitchin cool looking car. Andy |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Jul 16, 2012 8:33:32 GMT -8
But the model production is shifting... Many/most of the earlier pre-1960 era models available today have been available for more than 5 years... For example, how many of those "Walthers" Transition era locos were really developed and produced by Walthers as compared to old production Proto units? If Paul would go back to his lists and place a star beside every model that was first introduced in just the last 5 years, I'd bet the stars on the lower "modern" half would outnumber those on the top "transition" half... Curt, I can remember back in the day on the old Atlas Forum about you complaining about the lack of modern models like the C40-8W, et al. Obviously, there was a lack of modern models. They have been made recently, for the most part. Naturally, they'd be "newer" production because they were cranking out the more popular Transition Era models first. For the record, here's the last 5 years of engine announcements from Atlas, from July 2007 to July 2012: B23-7 Jul-07 B30-7 Jul-07 C420 Phase 2 Aug-07 RS-3 Sep-07 GP-38 Oct-07 GP-40 Oct-07 C-424 Phase 3 Nov-07 C-425 Phase 2 Nov-07 GP-7 Dec-07 DASH 8-32BHW Feb-08 DASH 8-40B Feb-08 DASH 8-40BW Feb-08 MP15DC Mar-08 GP38-2 Trainman Apr-08 SD-35 Apr-08 SDP-35 Apr-08 RS-32 May-08 RS-36 May-08 C420 Phase 1 Jun-08 GP40-2 Jul-08 HH600 Jul-08 HH660 Jul-08 RS-11 Aug-08 RS-1 Sep-08 U30B Sep-08 GP40-2 Oct-08 H15-44 Oct-08 H16-44 Oct-08 GP39-2 Phase 1 Trainman Nov-08 B23-7 Jan-09 GP38-2 Trainman Jan-09 C420 Phase 2 Mar-09 RS-3 Mar-09 RSD-4/5 Mar-09 RS-32 Apr-09 RS-36 Apr-09 MP15DC May-09 C-424 Phase 1 Jun-09 C-424 Phase 2 Jun-09 C-424 Phase 3 Jun-09 C-425 Phase 1 Jun-09 C-425 Phase 2 Jun-09 GP-38 Jun-09 GP-40 Jun-09 GP39-2 Phase 1 Trainman Jul-09 GP40-2 Phase 2 Jul-09 GP40-2W Locomotive Aug-09 NRE Genset Trainman Aug-09 DASH 8-40C Sep-09 DASH 8-40CW Sep-09 HH660 Sep-09 SD-24 Oct-09 SD-26 Oct-09 U23B Nov-09 GP38-2 Trainman Dec-09 U30C Jan-10 GP39-2 Phase 2 Feb-10 Train Master Mar-10 RS-32 Apr-10 RS-36 Apr-10 DASH 8-32BHW May-10 DASH 8-40B May-10 DASH 8-40BW May-10 GP40-2 Jun-10 MP15DC Jul-10 SD35 Jul-10 SDP35 Jul-10 HH660 Sep-10 C420 Phase 1 Oct-10 U30B Phase II Nov-10 GP39-2 Phase 1 Trainman Dec-10 NRE Genset Trainman Jan-11 GP38-2 Trainman Feb-11 RS-11 Sep-11 DASH 8-40C Dec-11 DASH 8-40CW Dec-11 GP38-2 Trainman Jun-12 |
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Post by curtmc on Jul 16, 2012 15:21:22 GMT -8
Paul, you missed my point...
Take out the re-runs of previously released products... and that leaves only the items being released for the first time. That is where you will find the majority are modern (post-1960) items...
It doesn't cost much money for manufacturers to make the umteenth run of a 1950s rustbucket so they are going to continue to do that as they do development on the newer items that haven't been offered before...
And Paul, even considering the rerun items, how many in that Atlas list in last 3 years (July 2009 or later) are 1950s units compared the post-1960 units? By my count it is 5 transition era (1950's) vs 28 post-1960. That looks like 84% "modern" (post-1960).
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Post by calzephyr on Jul 16, 2012 17:38:22 GMT -8
No doubt the transition era is over for real, but we can still run steam and passenger trains on layouts and enjoy them. We still like to run Passenger trains like the new El Cap and it has been gone now for almost 41 years! If we say the transition era is over, why did the recent Walthers El Cap sell in so great numbers?? Well of course you know the answer. It's Santa Fe, and it's big and shiny and cool, and it's pulled by warbonnets. Mine is pulled by Genesis warbonnets rather than the Walthers. I'm sure the Walthers run better, but I have enough Genesis warbonnets to handle the load and then some. And I wouldn't rule out buying more if they make another run in numbers or configurations I don't already have. Andy True, but it is the late transition era. I have about twenty of the Genesis Warbonnets to use for my Santa Fe trains. I did purchase one of the Walthers F3A units to check out some of the detail, but prefer the Genesis for my train. Larry |
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Post by mlehman on Jul 16, 2012 18:51:13 GMT -8
Yep, Blackstone hasn't made a diesel...yet. I've been eying the Blackstone drop bottom HOn3 gondolas. I have this thing for drop bottom gondygolas... I even have a PBL Sn3 kit of the D&RGW car that I haven't built yet. The HOn3 car would be strictly a display piece, but I might have to buy some track and a loco and caboose and some other cars to go with it........ but I have two brass SP GS gons, a bunch of Red Caboose gons, an Intermountain Caswell, and a whole stack of Ulrich metal kits. Probably my favorite steam era freight car, although I haven't picked a specific favorite among the standard gauge cars. The D&RGW narrow gauge car has 'em all beat in terms of just being a bitchin cool looking car. Andy Andy, You're a man after my own tastes. Unless it's something that must stay dry, there is no finer, more flexible freight car than the Western pattern GS gon. And the quintessential GS gon is the stunning Rio Grande narrowgauge version. How about a pic of a minty fresh drop-bottom gon?  Drop Bottom Gon finds safe haven by nagraph, on Flickr BTW, order yourself an oval of the upcoming ProTraxx HOn3 track and you'll be ready to roll: www.blackstonemodels.com/track/protraxx.phpI like my standard gauge, but I do everything possible to tempt modelers over to narrowgauge. Pardon me for being so blunt...  |
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Post by northern on Jul 16, 2012 19:45:57 GMT -8
The headline of the first posting does not make sense. The poster was right, more or less, the Transition era was from 1940's to the 1960's (at least in Canada). I can remember seeing steamers working the Alberta and Saskatchewan secondary lines during the late 1950's right into early 1960.
That era, the Transition era will always exist. What seems to puzzel the poster is why does it seem to be the most popular?
Members refer to the recent steam offerings of Athearn, BLI, Bachmann, Walthers and until recently Mehano/IHC. These posting certainly support the popularity of the Transition era.
Yes, as people get older the memories of steam will for the most part be gone. Yes there are small regional steam engines being run as tourist operations, but the majority of these will also pass as the cost of maintaining steam engines is very expensive.
However, the Transition period will always be well documented. It may not be the most popular in the near future, but then that should not be a surprise.
Meanwhile I will continue to run steam and first generation diesels on my layout.
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Post by keystonecrossings on Jul 17, 2012 9:07:39 GMT -8
The truth of the matter is, The Model Railroad era is nearly over!
Think about it... we are losing modelers to age. We aren't gaining nearly as many. The younger generation is seldom interested in model trains. Heck, most of them don't even use tools!
At my son's age, 14, I was building tree houses, model railroads, go carts, etc. He plays Xbox and texts. And he is anything but unique.
If today's kids are at all interested in model railroading, they are more likely to build a railroad in Microsoft Train Simulator or Trainz.
Magazines like Model Railroader are getting smaller for two reasons -- fewer subscribers and fewer advertisers. The latter can be attributed largely to the Internet.
As people leave the hobby (age, death), there will be fewer and fewer customers. This drives the price per unit for models upwards. If you think a locomotive is expensive today...
The hobby will go away out of economic necessity. I give it 30 years or so, max.
As for the "transitional era"... yes. Technology is such that we are finally getting the models we longed for -- a Pennsy H10, perhaps an L1 -- and they will crest and decline in offerings. The number of new models will also decline, as there are fewer railroads out there due to consolidation.
Sorry to rain on the parade, but that's my two cents.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2012 9:36:30 GMT -8
The truth of the matter is, The Model Railroad era is nearly over! Think about it... we are losing modelers to age. We aren't gaining nearly as many. The younger generation is seldom interested in model trains. Heck, most of them don't even use tools! At my son's age, 14, I was building tree houses, model railroads, go carts, etc. He plays Xbox and texts. And he is anything but unique. If today's kids are at all interested in model railroading, they are more likely to build a railroad in Microsoft Train Simulator or Trainz. Magazines like Model Railroader are getting smaller for two reasons -- fewer subscribers and fewer advertisers. The latter can be attributed largely to the Internet. As people leave the hobby (age, death), there will be fewer and fewer customers. This drives the price per unit for models upwards. If you think a locomotive is expensive today... The hobby will go away out of economic necessity. I give it 30 years or so, max. As for the "transitional era"... yes. Technology is such that we are finally getting the models we longed for -- a Pennsy H10, perhaps an L1 -- and they will crest and decline in offerings. The number of new models will also decline, as there are fewer railroads out there due to consolidation. Sorry to rain on the parade, but that's my two cents. You left out the sick economy in the U.S.. Many that should have the income to buy and play with toy trains have had to make tough choices and the first thing to get cut is the "play" money. The number of new models is already on the decline, courtesy of the "Chinese issue". The thing in China has only gotten worse over the last few years. Athearn's RTR line is at a total stand still. Forget about models, but Atlas is having severe supply issues with their track products. Cork roadbed, glue, drill bits, paint and a lot of other "staples" of the hobby can become impossible to find at times. |
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Post by calzephyr on Jul 17, 2012 14:51:21 GMT -8
The truth of the matter is, The Model Railroad era is nearly over! Think about it... we are losing modelers to age. We aren't gaining nearly as many. The younger generation is seldom interested in model trains. Heck, most of them don't even use tools! At my son's age, 14, I was building tree houses, model railroads, go carts, etc. He plays Xbox and texts. And he is anything but unique. If today's kids are at all interested in model railroading, they are more likely to build a railroad in Microsoft Train Simulator or Trainz. Magazines like Model Railroader are getting smaller for two reasons -- fewer subscribers and fewer advertisers. The latter can be attributed largely to the Internet. As people leave the hobby (age, death), there will be fewer and fewer customers. This drives the price per unit for models upwards. If you think a locomotive is expensive today... The hobby will go away out of economic necessity. I give it 30 years or so, max. As for the "transitional era"... yes. Technology is such that we are finally getting the models we longed for -- a Pennsy H10, perhaps an L1 -- and they will crest and decline in offerings. The number of new models will also decline, as there are fewer railroads out there due to consolidation. Sorry to rain on the parade, but that's my two cents. You left out the sick economy in the U.S.. Many that should have the income to buy and play with toy trains have had to make tough choices and the first thing to get cut is the "play" money. The number of new models is already on the decline, courtesy of the "Chinese issue". The thing in China has only gotten worse over the last few years. Athearn's RTR line is at a total stand still. Forget about models, but Atlas is having severe supply issues with their track products. Cork roadbed, glue, drill bits, paint and a lot of other "staples" of the hobby can become impossible to find at times. The Athearn RTR line should be starting up again since the shut factory in China has released most if not all of the tooling and it will be moved to some other company. I hope this does not happen again to other manufacturers in China as the Genesis MT4 was also at that factory with the RTR line. I was very sad to hear the news last year when it was told the MT4 was at that factory. Sort of set back the Post War Version a year or more. I still have no word on the total amount of tooling that was released. Larry |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2012 15:23:19 GMT -8
The Athearn RTR line should be starting up again since the shut factory in China has released most if not all of the tooling and it will be moved to some other company. Moving the tooling is the first step, finding production time is the problem. Athearn still has the RTR line listed as TBD (To Be Determined). The RTR line may not see even re-run products until 2013 or later. I hope this does not happen again to other manufacturers in China as the Genesis MT4 was also at that factory with the RTR line. I was very sad to hear the news last year when it was told the MT4 was at that factory. Sort of set back the Post War Version a year or more. I still have no word on the total amount of tooling that was released. Larry The problems in China will only continue to get worse. The best case scenario is things stay the same. Right now the U.S. manufacturers are treading water hoping not to sink too deep. There is a massive amount of economic and cultural change going on in China and the ride is going to be a wild one.  |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Jul 18, 2012 8:19:41 GMT -8
Paul, you missed my point... Take out the re-runs of previously released products... and that leaves only the items being released for the first time. That is where you will find the majority are modern (post-1960) items... Modern? 1960 is "Modern"? For pete's sake, that's 52 years ago...over half a century! Imagine if we carried out that argument? In 1940, a "modern" steam engine would have been made in 1888. A Budd RDC is a "modern" self propelled passenger car in the 2000's. Gimme a break, Curt. Other than the NRE Genset, Atlas hasn't created a new a loco prototype that was originally made in the 1980's, 1990's, 2000's or 2010's in eight years. The Dash 8-40CW was the latest, and it was first released by Atlas in 2004 (GE made the real ones first in 1989). In fact, if you go back and look, in the past 13 years, Atlas has only released 7 new loco models that are based on prototypes created since 1980. By comparison, they've made 10 locos of the 1970's, 21 from the 1960's, 8 from the 1950's, 5 from the 1940's, and even 2 from the 1930's. Again, stop the ridiculous assertion that 1960 locos are modern day. I mean, do you realize that with such broad definition of "modern", that you are calling Alco Century's "Modern"? I love Alcos as much as the next guy, but even I wouldn't call them modern. |
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Post by riogrande on Jul 18, 2012 9:01:32 GMT -8
I have to agree that the definition of "modern" has to be revised considering a great amount of time has passed by, especially since the 1960's.
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Post by calzephyr on Jul 18, 2012 9:19:17 GMT -8
I have to agree that the definition of "modern" has to be revised considering a great amount of time has passed by, especially since the 1960's. If the term modern is used for today's equipment, it should include what is running today as mainline power if I understand the term correctly in the context it is used. If we refer to what was modern in 1960, that would be most of the first generation and some of the latest second generation diesels. If someone models in a certain era like I prefer, then the late forties and early fifties include modern power for that era. On the other hand, the term for modern steam power to my thinking still refers to the late forties when LIMA was advertising how modern the NKP Berkshires were at that time. Never mind the C&O Greenbriars were really modern for steam and had all of the latest features. It is interesting how we think of the use of a word. Larry |
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Post by el3637 on Jul 18, 2012 9:53:26 GMT -8
I like my standard gauge, but I do everything possible to tempt modelers over to narrowgauge. Pardon me for being so blunt... Jimmy and Bill at P-B-L tried to seduce me back in the late 90s, even gifted me with Sn3 box car and short caboose kits. I started on the box car - very much enjoyed Bill's narrative instructions. I also picked up a tank car and the drop bottom when they released it. This was around 1997 - I went on an unofficial, behind-the-scenes layout tour with those guys and saw some very lovely Sn3 layouts. But one thing I've learned to do at my age is admire beauty without having to acquire it. It's not that I wouldn't enjoy doing narrow gauge (and if I did, it would be in a larger scale than HO) but that I can't do everything I'd enjoy doing, and I'd still rather build Hammond in HO standard gauge. I always come back to it after any diversion, so it must be where I belong. Andy |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2012 9:56:56 GMT -8
The problem is you can't always apply hard dates and cut offs to determine a time period.
For years there has been a debate as to the cut off of first and second generation diesels from EMD. Some say the GP20 and SD24 being the first turbo-charged units are second generation, others say the cut off is the GP30. Some say the second generation starts with the original 645 engined locomotives. Who's right?
I will say you can HARDLY consider the 1960's as modern. Maybe you can make a case that any locomotive built with ditch lights is the beginning of the "modern" era. Which is about a twenty year span. But even units that were new twenty years ago are ending up on the scrap line.
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Post by el3637 on Jul 18, 2012 10:03:32 GMT -8
However, the Transition period will always be well documented. It may not be the most popular in the near future, but then that should not be a surprise. The transition era was well documented because railfans, journalists, and railroaders alike all realized that a major change was taking place and there would be no turning back. By that time photography was practical for the masses, if not cheap - so the transition era is well documented. And today with cheap video and digital cameras, documentation cost next to nothing. Probably no locomotive or freight car type on the rails today will escape in-depth documentation far beyond anything we could have imagined. Unfortunately that leaves a substantial gap when it comes to the period of roughly 1960-1995. While many of the prolific transition era photographers kept up the pace for the decades to follow, many more didn't. Motive power isn't a problem, but freight cars are. There are bunches of freight car classes, some still in service today, that have little or no documentation in-service when built in the 60s or 70s. Cars built for the PC for example, during its brief 8-year existence... you want a picture of one in Conrail or paint-out, no problem... but in service as a PC car? Rotsa Ruck. Glaring example: the G47 gondola that Rail Yard Models did. I've only found two pics in PC, both look like brand new. Zero in coil service on the PC - Gene thinks the coil racks were added so late, likely many never did a coil haul before April Fool 76. Ditto N&W coil cars. Many cars built in the late 60s to mid 70s are still in service on the NS, but just try and find a decent photo of one running on the N&W. I suspect some of this documentation exists, but remains unpublished. I probably need to shop ebay for slides and negs more often. Stuff turns up there you won't find in an on-line photo site or any books. Andy |
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Post by el3637 on Jul 18, 2012 10:12:10 GMT -8
You left out the sick economy in the U.S.. Many that should have the income to buy and play with toy trains have had to make tough choices and the first thing to get cut is the "play" money. I have had to cut back my train purchases, although I haven't been out of work. My wife was out of work for a while, which was more due to her incompetent boss running a perfectly viable business into the ground when it should have been thriving. That, plus medical bills and spending more on gas has curtailed the train budget, but also we've been spending money on other things - like building the basement layout room. That money is going to Home Depot and Lowes and Menards, not to Walthers, Horizon, and the LHS but it's technically choo choo money. I also bought a new musical toy this year, which cost the equivalent of a 14-car brass passenger train. And I still was able to buy a 10-car plastic passenger train (hi Bill/Jason). But what I have really cut back on is the purchase of dozens of new locomotive releases every year. So far in 2012, the only locos I've taken in are the Canadian Fs (which came with the set) and a Bowser C&O C630 I bought in a weak moment. For the most part, I just don't need any of the new stuff being released. Many of the new releases are too modern, too expensive, and/or too redundant. I don't need $200 Walthers Proto SD9s, I have all I need and payed way, way less a long time ago, and both old and new would need the same investment in rebuilding, so I'll go with the old. Same for almost any EMD loco you can name - I already have the material. So in times like this, it's time to bleed down the hoard and get to work at the bench, with little cash outlay. And even some cash income. I can't swear to it but I *think* so far in 2012, my income from ebay sales of train stuff is very close to equal to my total outlay for train stuff. I paid for the Canadian entirely out of my Paypal account after a round on ebay Andy |
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