Is it time to admit the Transition Era is Over?

[atsfan]

For as long as I can remember, Model Railroader Magazine, and other mainstream hobby sources, have repeated the chant that the "transtion era" is the most popular among modelers. Is this still true?

I do not think so. The Steam to Diesel "Transition" Era was 1945-1957. That is a LONG time ago.

I think the modern era (at least 1970 to present day) is by far the most popular era with HO modelers. This is from what I see in stores, shows, everywhere.

Am I missing some huge transition era movement out there?

[edwardsutorik]

Note that the described "modern era" is four times longer than the "transition era".

That MAY be having an effect causing a bias. I think the "modern era" should at least be divided into two: the '70's and '80's and then the later time.

But you may well be right, the transition era WAS a long time ago. It's getting so I can hardly remember it, myself.


Ed

[riogrande]

As time goes by, I agree, what is popular will change the definition of "modern" will constantly update. For much of my life, "modern era" meant 70's and 80's, but that time frame has been replaced by a new "modern" era where graffiti is common and engines with ditch lights and wide cab's replaced the old spartan cab.

Someone would have to get some hard numbers of what people model now to decide if the steam/diesel transition is now falling behind, but with fewer and fewer people alive now who remember steam I'd have to imagine the numbers of steam/diesel transition modeling are falling off. Think about it, you'd pretty much have to be well over 60 if 98% of standard gauge steam was off the rails by around 1955/56. I was born in 59 so take 7 years off that for 60 year olds - they would have been wee toddlers when steam was closing down.

Well, don't forget the lessor transition era also, which is according to some is when 2nd generation diesels were replacing first generation - which according to Joseph Strapac was around 1960-1970 approximately - he considered GP20's or GP30's to be the start of the 2nd generation diesels. That would not be a huge movement and really I was too young to really have seen and remembered it. I didn't really start to watch trains more seriously until the 70's when I was enthralled by SD45's and tunnel motors.

[antoniofp45]

Interesting topic.

I agree with Ed's point with just one modification that we should consider. Remember that during the mid 1960s General Motors, General Electric, and Alco were engaged in the "Horsepower Wars", which speeded up the demise of many 1st generation diesels from Class 1 railroad service. Keeping that in mind I would suggest that the "Modern Era" be divided into two groups as suggested by Ed, but from 1965 or "mid-60s" thru the early 80s, just before EMD introduced the 710 series powered units in 1984.

From 1985, thru today, refer to it as the "Late Modern - Software Era" as even more advanced energy efficient technologies were employed in locomotives and rolling stock and of course GE "officially" became the #1 locomotive builder in North America, if I'm not mistaken.

[riogrande]

Wasn't the 1960's Alco's last gasp. Yes there were horse power wars - even the SP & DRGW both bought the German made Krauss Maffai diesel hydros.

[el3637]

In terms of the horsepower wars, railroading seems to have paralleled the automotive industry. For most of the carmakers the peak was 1969-70, and it was all downhill from there. In 1974 you could still buy a 454 Chevelle but it was a detuned, low compression that matched the 1970 model only in gas consumption, not in power.

So for me, I define the 60s and 70s as very different eras. My center modeling period for railroads is 1975, yet I can't think of a single 1975 automobile I'd want to own. Other than as auto rack loads of course. My favorite cars each from the big three: 1968 Chevy Impala SS427 notchback coupe; 1968 Dodge Charger RT; 1963 Ford Galaxie 427. I used to own a 68 Impala SS327 that I turned into a 396. I own a 68 big block Dodge but it's a Monaco, not a Charger. And I own a 63 Galaxie, but it's a 4-door 390 not a 2-door fastback 427. They'll do for now. If I could own a car from the 70s, I'd have to really think about it. 70 Chevelle LS-6 454 is considered the last and greatest of the GM muscle cars, but looks wise, I'd rather have a 67, or a big body. Having also owned a 67 Chevelle - it's a great looking car with a terrible suspension. And the Galaxie is perhaps the only car I've driven with worse brakes than my Chevelle. The Galaxie will get front disc brakes at some point - it's simply too scary to even roll it down the driveway the way it is now.

Anyway... oh yeah, railroads. The same thing that makes the 70s uninteresting to me automotively makes it very interesting to me railroad wise. It's a transition era - not steam to diesel but 1st generation to late second generation. You can find dash 2s working alongside F units. Many Alcos still working for their original owners. I think 1974 represents the most variety on the N&W's motive power roster ever. The first U30Cs and SD40-2s arrived, but virtually every diesel they ever owned was still on the roster including some FMs, S2s, RS3s. The first to go were the Wabash U25Bs, summarily retired at the end of 74. So if you go past 74, there's no real change in the roster makeup until late 77 when the first C30-7 arrived. And no new EMD models until the SD50S. It just provides a great variety of motive power, all of it shuttling in mainline service... remember any loco, any quantity, any combination, any direction, any train, any time. That's why things like 14:1 gearing, Kato motors, and standardized NCE decoders are a must for the Superfleet.

And the same is true of the rolling stock. Plenty of steam and 50s transition era stuff abounding - friction bearings, full frame tank cars alongside modern ones, 40' to 80' box cars and everything in between. Some roofwalks, some not, some removed. Cabooses still in service, some going back to steam era.

The only thing the 70s doesn't offer is classic passenger modeling, unless you exclusively model the Southern Ry or Rio Grande. You're pretty much stuck with Amtrak. And I will model Amtrak in the 70s, enough to have a couple JWRiley sets to run through Hammond tower in a session, and I'll continue to model any and all passenger trains of the 20th century that I have an interest in.

So I wouldn't call everything post 1970 the modern era. I call the 1970s "The Other Transition Era".

Andy

[spookyac47]

Time stops at 1966 for me.
With respect to the steam to diesel "transition era", if one looks back at one of the threads on this forum where folks revealed facts about themselves, I believe I did a quick, unscientific posting of the ages of those posting . . . If I recall, there was a larger number of posters at and above 55 or so than below it

[el3637]

Jul 12, 2012 20:47:39 GMT -8 spookyac47 said:

Time stops at 1966 for me.
With respect to the steam to diesel "transition era", if one looks back at one of the threads on this forum where folks revealed facts about themselves, I believe I did a quick, unscientific posting of the ages of those posting . . . If I recall, there was a larger number of posters at and above 55 or so than below it

True but, you have to be older than that to really remember the transition era. I'm 54, and I have no memory of steam, although it did exist when I was born, and it's possible at the age of 1 or 2 I could have witnessed an N&W steam loco in Cincinnati. But no memory. I think it's generally concluded that people like to model their impressionable years - that's certainly true for me. I turned 18 in 1975, and that's the year I model, perhaps leaning more toward 74 but allowing some rolling stock out to 1978 or so as long as it's not in a roadname that didn't exist in 75 (like Conrail). So to have been impressionable in the transition era, the minimum age is closer to 70. There are still plenty of active modelers out there over 70, and I imagine they are still a solid demographic for the hobby.

One thing that is somewhat popular now is pure contemporary modeling - rather than time-freezing at any one point, it's all about keeping up with the latest merger, new locomotives, new rolling stock. Manufacturers only recently got into that mindset - prior to about 1990, nobody seemed the slightest bit interested in producing a locomotive that wasn't at least 10 years old. The most popular locomotive of a generation - the SD40-2 - took 11+ years to get on the market for HO modelers. It seems now that the gestation period for product to go from the 1:1 world to the 1:87 (and 1:160) world is more like 4-5 years now. So contemporary, keep-up-with-the-prototype modeling is a lot more feasible now than it once was, and it seems to be gaining in popularity.

However many modelers aren't necessarily keen on trimming their rosters at the back end. They'll buy the ACEs and aluminum hoppers and Trincools but don't want to give up their GP9s, Toosh Dahs, and R-70-15s.

Of course when I first desired to model the prototype, it *was* 1975 and it *was* contemporary. And I kept accumulating stuff for the next 20 years or so, sort of in denial that if I was gonna model 1975, most of that newer stuff wasn't appropriate, and if I was gonna continue to model contemporary, not only did the GP9s and GP30s have to go - so did the N&W! So I just sort of shelved the N&W for about 4 years. From 93-97, I modeled the contemporary NS pretty much exclusively, built a modest Superfleet, even a few brass pieces, contemporary rolling stock... and I guess I was thinking as long as I was railfanning - which I was at the time - I'd maintain an interest in the contemporary stuff, but still wanted to model N&W in the 70s, my real passion.

The last megamerger round solved the problem for me. Everything changed pretty rapidly. Heck, NS and CSX adopted directional running and shared track thus eliminating my favorite thing to watch and sync up with: meets at Crescentville siding. Almost in a blink, the old NS 4-axle power stopped running New Castle and was assigned on east-west runs in the south. I was inundated with Vaders. At that same time, I built my first N&W diesel in several years and my first to new standards in 1996 - and it's now the Godfather of my Superfleet.

I had to completely abandon contemporary *modeling*. I don't railfan much, and when I do, I shoot as many pictures as I want with my digital, and it's always with the stipulation "no, we're not going to model this just because we're taking pictures". Turning 50 motivated me to get busy on the basement and the layout, but really my modeling plans in terms of era and road were set around the time I turned 40. I'll probably have to live to be 90 to accomplish most of it, but I'll have fun trying anyway.

Andy

[fr8kar]

I was born in the 70s so I have no recollection of the transition era. I'd have no steam at all if I hadn't inherited my grandpa's collection of steam and early diesel power. It's all pre-DCC, so it doesn't get used. Even if I went to the trouble of converting it to DCC, the Rivarossi pizza cutter flanges just couldn't operate on code 83 track, so it would be a waste. The non-Rivarossi steam is either junk, brass or both. Now, if I had a nice 0-6-0 switcher, I could see playing around with steam. The closest thing I have is the Athearn 0-6-0, which doesn't run well. Amazingly, the old Athearn Pacific actually runs okay for what it is, but nowhere near my diesels.

I'm firmly entrenched in the 80s, which lands me in my impressionable years, as Andy says above. I think there's something to that, that we model our impressionable years. I modeled the contemporary scene in the 90s until the time my first daughter was born in 2002. After that, I didn't keep up with anything, nevermind trains. When I did return to the trains, it was with an interest in the time that I railfanned as a teenager, and to a large extent, the places from that time. For me that's generally post-merger MP/WP/UP but while everthing still had its own colors. MKT, SSW and SP were still separate from UP, and BN and ATSF were nothing more than neighbors in my town. The contemporary scene of UP and BNSF simply doesn't compare.

What's interesting to me, now that I think about it, is that the era I model is appealing to me for one of the same reasons my grandpa always gave about modeling the transition era: variety.

[nw611]

The transition era may be over, but its variety is still fascinating: the last USRA locomotives and the big new wartime steamers, diesels from EMD, Alco, Baldwin, F-M, long passenger trains (streamliners and heavyweight). At least 3 major railroads in any area of the US. What more could you ask for ? Ciao.
Raffaele

[nw611]

Probably the manufacturers do not agree on the end of the Transition Era. Recently BLI announced new runs of:
AT&SF 3800 2-10-2
N&W J 4-8-4
NYC J1 4-6-4 Hudson
PRR K4s 4-6-2
PRR I1sa 2-10-0
EMD E6/7/8
Baldwin Centipede
and a totally new PRR H10s 2-8-0.
Rivarossi a new run of the C&O 2-6-6-6 Allegheny.
Walthers new runs of the Alco DL109s and the EMD SW1s
Athearn new runs of the AT&SF F3A/B, of the PRR F7A/B and a new MoPac GP9 in 1955 paint scheme.
All these locomotives fall into the Transition Era and represent more than 50% of the new models announced in the last 2/3 months.
Raffaele

[onequiknova]

I must be one of the few who isn't really interested in modeling what I grew up seeing. I'm 34 and grew up watching the BN, C&NW and ATSF in the 90's around Chicago. I do own some contemporary stuff, but when it comes time to build an actual layout, it will either be transition era CB&Q, or 70's era RI, neither of which I witnessed with my own eyes.

I guess I find the trains of my youth a little boring in a way. My interest in CB&Q stems from my Dad. I've got a decent sized collection of brass CB&Q steam, including a couple of scratchbuilds.

I really don't know where my interest in the RI came from. I guess I just like their paint schemes when I was a kid, and my interest grew from there.

[riogrande]

Jul 13, 2012 8:14:59 GMT -8 onequiknova said:

I must be one of the few who isn't really interested in modeling what I grew up seeing. I'm 34 and grew up watching the BN, C&NW and ATSF in the 90's around Chicago. ...when it comes time to build an actual layout, it will either be transition era CB&Q, or 70's era RI, neither of which I witnessed with my own eyes.

I guess I find the trains of my youth a little boring in a way. My interest in CB&Q stems from my Dad. I've got a decent sized collection of brass CB&Q steam, including a couple of scratchbuilds.

I really don't know where my interest in the RI came from. I guess I just like their paint schemes when I was a kid, and my interest grew from there.

Some folks do buck the trend although seeing things first hand is a big draw for many to model. I know as a teen there wasn't anything I wanted more than a nice Southern Pacific SD45 pulling typical SP freight. In the 1970's and 1980's I traveled to Colorado and got hooked on Rocky Mountain scenery and the D&RGW, but ... during the past 10 years, Athearn has been producing SP freight cars and diesels and that has rekindled my teen age interests!

But something else has happened in the past 15 or so years ... lots of Video's in the form of VCR or DVD's have come out and a whole slew of Color books on various RR's. This IMO has been a major vehicle to push a few folks to want to model RR's that they never saw. I know a guy in Indiana who is of similar age to me, so I know he didn't see the D&RGW during transition era, but he has the money and space to collect D&RGW steam brass and model 1953. So yeah, people get a wild hair and do things differently than most.

[el3637]

Jul 13, 2012 8:14:59 GMT -8 onequiknova said:

I guess I find the trains of my youth a little boring in a way. My interest in CB&Q stems from my Dad. I've got a decent sized collection of brass CB&Q steam, including a couple of scratchbuilds.

My interest in passenger trains stems largely from my dad's stories, books, and catching just a glimpse of what once was. I remember Cincinnati Union Terminal in the early 60s - a far cry from its glory days of 1931 thru WWII - but it was still a big impressive place with lots of people and to me, lots of trains. I saw mainly passenger trains of the NYC, B&O, and PRR and only got to ride the NYC and PRR. I never rode a heavyweight car except on an excursion. But I basically model passenger trains from about 1930 to 1960, from all different roads and locations. The oldest train I have, prototype wise, is sort of a generic heavyweight Pullman train not really representing a specific consist, but I have plans to build the 1935 20th Century Ltd. The newest would be the 1956-60 El Capitan. Most of what I have is lightweight because Walthers has yet to do a complete HW train, nor has anybody else in non-brass.

BTW I love the comment about old steam models being "junk, brass, or both". All too often both I'd say, although at least there is some potential for improvement there. More so than the pizzacutters anyway.

I could be happy modeling the transition era of the NYC, PRR, or Nickel Plate. Or Santa Fe in the 1960s. Or NS in the early 1990s. Or the SP in the steam or transition era. I have bits of all of the above. But I think I would be happiest pursuing my long standing goal of modeling N&W in the 70s, just east of Chicago in a little flat industrial town that may have had more grade crossings per capita than anyplace in its heyday. Visiting the grandparents was train heaven compared to Cincinnati. Not that Cincy had any shortage of trains back then, but they're obscured by hills and trees and winding roads that can't keep up with them. And we didn't have the predominance of interlockings and junctions that Hammond had. Railfanning Hammond was easy. All you needed was a chair and a camera. Cincinnati you need a nimble SUV, a scanner, and cell phones to stay in touch with friends down the line - none of which were available to me in the 70s.

Andy

[Deleted]

Since the manufacturer's do not let us, the unwashed public, in on the how's and why's of decision making, and since they are in the business of building toy trains and making profit, they must know something.

There is a another thread on the board , about how southeast prototype models are somewhat ignored and that they will sell, blah, blah, blah. The old Atlas forum had many threads on someone has to do this particular locomotive or freight car because it will sell.

The common theme in ALL the threads is what the public thinks will sell or where the hobby is headed, doesn't seem to be the same vision as the manufacturers. If the transition era is "dead" then why is BLI with their meager resources, pumping out so much steam? Why is Walthers dusting off the SW1 and doing the as-built schemes? Why is Athearn pumping out GP7/9's and previously F-units?

We must remember that those of us that post on these forums is a micro sample of the hobby. I don't know of any board that is really diverse. I look at the people doing the vast majority of posting on this forum and it totals about three dozen or so and they account for maybe 75% of the posts. Hardly a cross section of a hobby that has thousands of active participants.

I can only assume that there is some data, other than Kalmbach's, that substantiates the demographics of the hobby. Some type of data that the manufacturer's rely on to make decisions on what products they will offer. Like a political election, the poles don't always predict what the elector-it will do once they step into the voting booth.

[el3637]

Jul 13, 2012 10:11:33 GMT -8 @australianterrier said:

Since the manufacturer's do not let us, the unwashed public, in on the how's and why's of decision making, and since they are in the business of building toy trains and making profit, they must know something.

I have never worked for a hobby manufacturer. However I have worked for small businesses my entire career (including my own) and virtually all of the companies we're talking about qualify as small businesses. My sum experience with small businesses is that decisions are far more arbitrary than they would have us believe, or even have their employees believe. Many have a single owner who is the final shot caller, and the call will often go 180 degrees against the recommendations of the other senior personnel and front line fighters. The model railroad industry, business wise, has more in common with Les Gold's "Hard Core Pawn" than it does with Microsoft, or GM, or Walmart. Even though it's a TV show and the drama is staged, the decisions made by the owner are frequently totally illogical and "because I said so". That part of it very accurately represents small business in America, even if the specific incidents may not be real.

I'm not saying all product decisions are whims and go against logic. But they sure do quite frequently. If the business owner can afford a lark, even more often. And another angle on this is that quite often the owner's whim is right on, even going totally against everyone else - it's an intuition that is key in business success, that supersedes conventional logic.

A few interesting examples I know of: Gordon Cannon started out doing narrow gauge stuff, and tooling for other people. His first HO scale standard gauge products were the EMD cabs - 35 line and switcher, followed by doors. He really had no interest in doing a high nose. He didn't feel the market for it was there, that it was a regional thing and certainly not a California thing (like the Swifty RoadRailers). But he did it anyway it became, to my knowledge, his best selling product. This in spite of Fast Freddie doing a one-piece high nose at almost the exact same time. Fred's nose was easier for a quick job, but lacked the detail, accuracy, and options that Cannon's had - and it actually cost more.

I always heard Rail Power Products' best selling shell was the C32-8. Keep in mind they also made a C30-7, B23-7, Dash 8 40B, Dash 8 40CW, Dash 9 44CW, SD60, SD60M, GP60, GP60M, GP60B, SD38, SD45-2, and scale width versions of the SD9, SD45, GP35 when no one else did. Out of all of that, the goofy low-production one-road C32-8 was the best seller. Why? Well in large part because people used it as either a stand-in or kitbash base for a C39-8, also a limited road loco but in much larger numbers... and the kitbash required two shells., But it was also just, well, different. It wasn't going to get mistaken for an Athearn U33C... ever. There's no poll or any rational justification at the time that could have come out in favor, that said "Dana Stark... you should make a C32-8 shell". And it wasn't even all that good!

Yes, times have changed. What's hot has changed, but I'm pretty confident that the workings of small businesses have not.

Andy

[Brakie]

Andy:So to have been impressionable in the transition era, the minimum age is closer to 70.
---------------------
Andy,I'm 64 and can vividly recall the last of main line steam on PRR,N&W B&O and some C&O steam..I recall the long lines of dead steam locomotives awaiting the scrapper.I recall seeing brand new GP9s and RS11s. I was in the cab of N&W 4-8-0 # 444 and the cab of a B&O 2-8- still plying their trade for their owners in 1955-I was 7 years old and can still remember the smile of the old kindly engineer and the way he allowed me to blow the whistle...I recall the fireman asking my dad if I should be toss in the firebox or would I end being a large clinker?

I recall the B&O brakeman and fireman lifting me into the cab of that 2-8-0 so I wouldn't dirty my school clothes.

Still I never wanted to model that era.

I like the 70s-90s.

[el3637]

Jul 13, 2012 11:45:08 GMT -8 Brakie said:

Andy:So to have been impressionable in the transition era, the minimum age is closer to 70.
---------------------
Andy,I'm 64 and can vividly recall the last of main line steam on PRR,N&W B&O and some C&O steam..

Well that's 10 years closer to 70 than I am

Andy

[Paul Cutler III]

atsfan,
Technically, the "Transition Era" started in 1932 with the introduction of the first sucessful production diesel with the first deliveries of the HH600. I'd say it ended when N&W dropped steam in 1959-60 along with the introduction of the 2nd Generation of diesels in the form of the U25B. To me, that makes the Transition Era from 1932 to roughly 1960.

I think your definition of the "modern day" starting with 1970 is incorrect. That's 42 years ago. That's modern? Personally, I'd say the modern era began with the BN & ATSF merger in 1995...which is 17 years ago. Between the "Transition Era" and the "Modern Era", I'd say you have two more: Pre-Staggers (1960-1980) and Post-Staggers (1980-1995) eras...or you could split them with the 1976 formation of Conrail.

Which is currently dominant? Personally, I think the Transistion Era is still No. 1. Why? Look at the models currently on the various big manufacturer's websites in HO scale plastic:

Transition Era
Athearn & Roundhouse:
2-6-0
2-8-0
4-4-0
4-8-2
4-8-4
4-6-6-4
4-8-8-4
F2
F3
F7 (x2)
F9
FP7
GP7
GP9
RS-3

Atlas:
GP7
H15-44
H16-44
H24-66
HH660
RS-1
RS-3
RSD-4/5
S-1
S-2
S-3
S-4

Walthers:
0-6-0
0-8-0
RS-2
DL-109
SW-1
RDC-1
RDC-2
RDC-3
F3
F7
H10-44
E7
E8/9
SW8/900
SW9/1200
SD9
FA-1

BLI:
RSD-15
Centipede
E6
E7
E8/9
NW2
SW7
ATSF 2-10-2
N&W J 4-8-4
N&W Y6b 2-8-8-2
NYC J1 4-6-4
PRR H10
PRR I1
PRR K4
PRR M1
PRR T1
RDG T-1
SP AC4/5
SP GS4
USRA Heavy Mike
USRA Light Mike
USRA Light Pacific
NH I-5 4-6-4
NYC J3 4-6-4
NYC L-4
PRR Q2
SP AC12
UP 4-12-2
UP 2-10-2

Bachmann:
FA-2
GP7
GP9
RS-3
44tonner
45tonner
70tonner
H16-44
S-4
0-6-0
PRR K4
2-6-0
4-4-0
2-6-2
2-10-0
2-8-0
SP GS4
USRA Light 2-10-2
2-8-4
2-6-6-2
2-8-8-4
Doodlebug
RF16

InterMountain:
FT
SP AC12
FP7
FP9
F3
F7

Bowser/Stewart:
AS16/AS416/AS616/DRS-4-4-1500/DRS-6-6-1500
F7
VO1000
VO660
S8
S12
FT
F3
F9

Now compare that to the modern era offerings from the same manufacturers:

Modern Era
Athearn:
GP15-1
GP15T
GP38-2 (x2)
SD45-2
SD60
SD70
SD70Ace
SD70M
SD75
MP15AC
GP40X
GP40-2
GP50
GP60
SD40
SD40-2
SD40T-2
SD45T-2
SD45
SD50
SD60
SW1000
SW1500
F59PHI
C44-9W
AC4400CW
AMD103

Atlas:
AEM-7/ALP-44
B23-7
B30-7
B40-8
B40-8W
B32-8WH
C40-8
C40-8W
GP40
GP40-2
GP40-2W
MP15DC
U30C
U30B
U23B

Walthers:
GP15-1
SD45
U28B
U30B
GP60
GP9M
F40PH

BLI:
SD40-2
AC6000CW
SW1500

Bachmann:
B23-7
B30-7
SD40-2
GP38-2
GP40
GP50
Acela
HHP-8

InterMountain:
ES44AC
ES44DC

Bowser/Stewart:
None.

For those keeping score, that's 112 "Transition Era" models vs. 62 "Modern Era" models on manufacturer's websites.

That's almost 2 to 1. Still think the "Modern Era" is more popular?

As for me, I was born in 1975. My early RR memories (and since my dad is a railfan/modeler, too, I saw plenty) are of Amtrak & MBTA F40PH's and Conrail B23-7's. There were demotored MBTA Budd RDC's and FP10's but I can't recall them at all, and I'm sure there were other types of engines running up and down the former-NH's Shoreline Route by my Massachusetts house, but I honestly don't remember any. My childhood railroad memories are a boring uniformity, when the only oddballs were Amtrak's Mail Train and the Night Owl...and you had to get up real early to see those.

Meanwhile, the NH was running hourly named passenger trains in my dad's youth, plus things like the "Four Horsemen" freights that left Boston every 30 minutes during the afternoon rush (5PM, 5:30PM, 6PM, 6:30PM). Then there's the local freights, the servicing facilities, the freight yards, the customers...

Today, it's almost all gone. Sure, passenger traffic is even better than in the NH days with Amtrak's Acela and the MBTA's commuter service, but where's the freight? One measly local freight goes by my house per day. That's it. I like passenger trains, but compared to the NH era there's no question which is more fun to study and operate.

BTW, "Modern Era" modeling is a minority at my Boston-area club, and we've got around 70 members. "Transition Era" is far and away the most popular for us.

[riogrande]

Paul,

It may also matter region wise. You are northeast and I sometimes wonder if some of the old stuff hun around there longer than out west?

[bdhicks]

I know some of this is because I picked an odd prototype, but my modern era (defined by me as within the last decade) fleet, in addition to 2 SD70MACs, an SD70ACe, a SD50, a SD40-2, an SD39, and two P42s, includes 3 C424s, 1 RS-3, 2 RS-27s, 1 CF7, and 1 SD9 (this includes a few in-progress models).

While I'm sure the transition era attracts more modelers than would be expected simply by age, I also suspect that it is somewhat overrepresented in publications like Model Railroader and by manufacturers, due to demographics for the magazines and the prestige (and premiums) associated with large steam for the manufacturers.

Of course, no matter what era you model, you're sure to complain about not getting all the models produced that you want and why can't manufacturers focus more on your era instead of all those other eras that have enough already.

[riogrande]

Jul 13, 2012 17:24:09 GMT -8 bdhicks said:

Of course, no matter what era you model, you're sure to complain about not getting all the models produced that you want and why can't manufacturers focus more on your era instead of all those other eras that have enough already.

Yes, I've been one to wish for more 70's era models, but I really can't complain - the only major missing freight car I can think of are the early enclosed autoracks. Seems the racks which have been made are the Accurail open racks plus kit versions with side panels but these are fairly simple models and don't match many seen commonly in the 70's. The only other racks are the enclosed Walthers and now Int Mnt which represent late 80's and later IIRC. But autoracks weren't a major part of D&RGW bridge traffic until the later years when the Walthers racks over I guess.

[rockfan]

one reason western roads were quick to transition, so I've read is that diesels dont need to stop for water, I bet it evaporates very fast in the desert.

[fr8kar]

Jul 13, 2012 9:50:35 GMT -8 el3637 said:

My interest in passenger trains stems largely from my dad's stories, books, and catching just a glimpse of what once was. I remember Cincinnati Union Terminal in the early 60s - a far cry from its glory days of 1931 thru WWII - but it was still a big impressive place with lots of people and to me, lots of trains. I saw mainly passenger trains of the NYC, B&O, and PRR and only got to ride the NYC and PRR. I never rode a heavyweight car except on an excursion. But I basically model passenger trains from about 1930 to 1960, from all different roads and locations. The oldest train I have, prototype wise, is sort of a generic heavyweight Pullman train not really representing a specific consist, but I have plans to build the 1935 20th Century Ltd. The newest would be the 1956-60 El Capitan. Most of what I have is lightweight because Walthers has yet to do a complete HW train, nor has anybody else in non-brass.

I have a similar interest in passenger train modeling from that era, too, which is fueled both by my grandpa's stories of those trains, but also by the collection he left me. When I went through his collection after he passed on, I discovered very little freight rolling stock, but tons of passenger (mostly the Rivarossi A and B sets in various schemes). Most of the steam was junk, but much of the diesel collection wasn't bad stuff, like the P2K E7-9s and PAs. I'm really tempted to do something with the Santa Fe PAs and the NYC E7s, but if I ever do it will be far in the future.

BTW I love the comment about old steam models being "junk, brass, or both". All too often both I'd say, although at least there is some potential for improvement there. More so than the pizzacutters anyway.

I could be happy modeling the transition era of the NYC, PRR, or Nickel Plate. Or Santa Fe in the 1960s. Or NS in the early 1990s. Or the SP in the steam or transition era. I have bits of all of the above. But I think I would be happiest pursuing my long standing goal of modeling N&W in the 70s, just east of Chicago in a little flat industrial town that may have had more grade crossings per capita than anyplace in its heyday. Visiting the grandparents was train heaven compared to Cincinnati. Not that Cincy had any shortage of trains back then, but they're obscured by hills and trees and winding roads that can't keep up with them. And we didn't have the predominance of interlockings and junctions that Hammond had. Railfanning Hammond was easy. All you needed was a chair and a camera. Cincinnati you need a nimble SUV, a scanner, and cell phones to stay in touch with friends down the line - none of which were available to me in the 70s.

Andy

I certainly can relate to that environment. I grew up in Fort Worth, home to Tower 55, just one of several interlockings in the area. Even in my childhood there were still several railroads cris-crossing each other to get to or through Fort Worth. There was no shortage of places you could walk or bike to from my house that would afford views of anything from industry switchers, yard switchers, lumbering manifests, coal drags or even hot pigs. Hodge, Peach, Saginaw and North Yards all were within easy reach. It was rare but a few times I got cab rides on the Mopac and BN. Those memories are etched in my mind and drive what I model today.

[riogrande]

Jul 13, 2012 22:54:55 GMT -8 rockfan said:

one reason western roads were quick to transition, so I've read is that diesels dont need to stop for water, I bet it evaporates very fast in the desert.

That has been mentioned in the Rio Grande Diesels books by Joseph Strapac. While D&RGW was quick to convert to diesels, they didn't drop their standard gauge steam fires until late 1955 or 56 and at that, the last running were in the desert subdivisions. 1955/56 is right in line with most of the major RR's at the time, only a small number lasted a couple years longer.

[nw611]

I do not think that the direction I took in model railroading was influenced by my childhood memories. I grew up in Rome, Italy but I like the US Transition Era because I love American steam locomotives, with a preference for the big articulated engines. The Transition Era is when you can mix USRA locomotives, Northerns, Mountains, Pacifics, Mikados with first generation diesels from a variety of manufacturers. My second choice would be the Southeast (Atlanta, Georgia) in the early/mid eighties, during the transition from L&N and SCL to CSX (through Family Lines and Seaboard System) and from Southern to NS. But these are dreams, because I'm presently modeling a portion of northern Italy, in the Alps at the border with Austria and Switzerland, where I can run Italian, Austrian, Swiss and German trains.
The result is that I'm now modeling what was available on the European market when I moved back to Italy, but I still dream modeling the Transition Era in the United States. Ciao.

Raffaele

[Paul Cutler III]

riogrande,
The real issue is that there's been nothing around here to replace the old roads. Out West, if you lived on a mainline that hasn't been torn up, the parade of freights never stopped, always with the latest and greatest railroad replacing what was before. Around these parts, the old roads were replaced by ne'er-do-wells like Penn Central and Guilford Rail System. Only Conrail made some serious inroads for railfans, and CR's been gone for 13 years. CSX doesn't seem like it can leave New England fast enough, and NS has been trying but Guilford/Pan Am has been resistant to selling out. Other than that, what we've got is a bunch of regionals like Providence & Worcester, New England Central, St. Lawrence & Atlantic, Vermont Railway, and short lines like Housatonic, Mass Coastal, Connecticut Southern, etc.

[Brakie]

Jul 13, 2012 22:54:55 GMT -8 rockfan said:

one reason western roads were quick to transition, so I've read is that diesels dont need to stop for water, I bet it evaporates very fast in the desert.

That's the railfan BS story.

The cold facts is steam was high maintenance(a steam engine started self destruct at speed) and labor intense.

The best way to kill labor cost was to dieselized and eliminate thousands of shop craft jobs,close steam repair shops, closed roundhouses, and eliminate turntables.
------------------------
As far as brass,steam engines from United,PFM,Balboa and Sunset was smooth runners.

[riogrande]

Jul 14, 2012 8:13:35 GMT -8 Brakie said:

Jul 13, 2012 22:54:55 GMT -8 rockfan said:

one reason western roads were quick to transition, so I've read is that diesels dont need to stop for water, I bet it evaporates very fast in the desert.

That's the railfan BS story.

The cold facts is steam was high maintenance(a steam engine started self destruct at speed) and labor intense.

Agree'd. Like I said, D&RGW dropped SG steam fires concurrently with most of the other major US railroad.

Yes, obviously diesel replace steam due to simple economic costs - they were higher to maintain. There is a guy in the MR forums who's siggy says "If it isn't steam, it is crap". The guy is obviously ignoring the basic facts and just thinks steam is cool - sure, maybe but it diesel isn't crap - it was cheaper or we'd still be using steam today.

[calzephyr]

Jul 14, 2012 11:21:30 GMT -8 riogrande said:

Jul 14, 2012 8:13:35 GMT -8 Brakie said:

That's the railfan BS story.

The cold facts is steam was high maintenance(a steam engine started self destruct at speed) and labor intense.

Agree'd. Like I said, D&RGW dropped SG steam fires concurrently with most of the other major US railroad.

Yes, obviously diesel replace steam due to simple economic costs - they were higher to maintain. There is a guy in the MR forums who's siggy says "If it isn't steam, it is crap". The guy is obviously ignoring the basic facts and just thinks steam is cool - sure, maybe but it diesel isn't crap - it was cheaper or we'd still be using steam today.

True, steam was very expensive to maintain and its era has passed by. Along with that passing was many good jobs for local workers at every roundhouse and back shop. Many of us who watched steam still like the transition era since we were witnesses of the passing and knew for several years it was over before it happened. I went for my high school checkout in the spring of 1958 and watched an Illinois Central 1500 series Mikado from a class room that day while we were looking at the new school for our class. When school started in the fall of 1958, steam was gone and all I could watch was a GP9 doing the local work. I like the transition era best since I modeled and collected steam and early diesels for more than forty years.

I do like the new AC units and watch them often on trains most steam could not handle up and down Donner Pass. I got out today after arriving back from Denver yesterday and watch the 1995 Heritage unit come down the Hill with a long double stack train. It was a great sight to see the way the diesels handle a train of that size on D/B for the eighty some miles of rail downhill from Norden.

No doubt the transition era is over for real, but we can still run steam and passenger trains on layouts and enjoy them. We still like to run Passenger trains like the new El Cap and it has been gone now for almost 41 years! If we say the transition era is over, why did the recent Walthers El Cap sell in so great numbers??

I received a new SD70Ace in the mail on Friday also with sound that is really great. Maybe the old days are over, but it is still fun to run either new or old now and then!!!

Larry