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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 18, 2012 15:30:00 GMT -8
Hello guys, I bought this P2K "Special Edition" (gray box) SD45 some years ago, brand new. Since I've focused so much on metalizing passenger cars, I haven't hopped it up yet with weathering, LED lights, gyra lite, weathering, additional detailing, and DCC-sound. I plan to add all of these features once the majority of my SS cars have been "Alcladded".    Reason for this thread is due to some comments I've seen on this and other forums in the past regarding P2K drives and chassis'. I really would appreciate detailed comments with no sugar coating. I'm not closed minded and blindly loyal to a brand, so if there are pitfalls to look out for I'd appreciate knowing about them.  I understand that the motors are Athearn clones, but I've seen a number of these older motors tuned up and tweaked nicely. Additionally, replacement motors from Mashima work out well. First my take: Consider that I'm in my late 40s and grew up in the Athearn Blue Box/ Atlas Yellow & White box era. Although model locomotive tooling standards were raised in the 90s ( I think), I was one of those modelers that had been hanging on to Blue Box type units, (although I did purchase some new Atlas and Stewart units during the late 90s). So when I purchased my first P2K units in the mid 2000s, I was like a drooling baby with candy looking at "See-Thru" fans, detailed radiator grills, walkways with "diamond plate" tread, air hoses, and other details that I would normally spend hours adding on to blue box units. I think this is why, at first, the inaccurate nose contour of the P2K E-units didn't really bother me as, overall, they were a huge jump over the AHM and Model Power E-units we had to contend with in the 70s and 80s. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2012 15:35:34 GMT -8
The problem with the Proto 2000 SD45 is its gear ratio. Its not the standard, so the locomotive doesn't play well with other "standard" geared models.
Andy Harmon (EL3637) can give you chapter and verse on the model's funky gear ratio and other mechanism problems.
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Post by bnsf971 on Jul 18, 2012 15:44:36 GMT -8
I had that exact model, and it ran great. I use DCC, so I was able to speed match it with a Genesis SD45-2. I only got rid of it because I am consolidating my stuff to a couple of roads, and SCL wasn't one of them.
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Post by el3637 on Jul 18, 2012 21:42:09 GMT -8
The SD45 runs ok. Its gear ratio is approximately 9:1. I believe the gearbox is the same internal stack as the P2K SD60, which was 18:1, but with a 2x worm. I had one powered unit - I got rid of the drive long ago and never bought another one. As long as I have Kato SD45 drives, or if you want a better looking fuel tank the Athearn RTR frame, I have no use for P2K gear-ratio-of-the-month-club units. I think the only ones I have left are the RS27s, which have a 12-tooth axle gear, single screw worm, but an inane 16:17 compound that make it 11.something to 1. I haven't really used them... one PC and one undec - so haven't had to deal with the gearing.
Andy
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 19, 2012 9:32:50 GMT -8
Thanks for your responses guys, I do appreciate it.
I understand now that the high gear ratio is the issue, fair enough. On their own, my P2K hood and E-units run smoothly, even at low speeds. But I can see where this would be an problem in running MU lashups with locomotives from other brands that are geared lower, especially Atlas and Athearn Genesis units. I've noticed that the newer Atlas and Walthers units seem to have a top speed of about 60 scale mph (correct me if I'm wrong, please), while my P2K units can run between 90-100mph top speed.
Since I plan on having my entire fleet DCC equipped, hopefully speed matching won't be a headache.
Andy, you presented an interesting thought. Kato drives are excellent and if I find one for an HO SD45, I'd strongly consider it. Hopefully the P2K fits without extensive mods required.
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Post by el3637 on Jul 19, 2012 9:46:49 GMT -8
Since I plan on having my entire fleet DCC equipped, hopefully speed matching won't be a headache. Oh it is anyway, just a different kind of headache. The P2K shell has screw posts molded inside for mounting which will have to be removed. I have only done this once so far but the Kato frame has to be ground a bit, it's kind of messy. Also if you don't do some thinning of the Kato frame, the loco will sit a bit high just because the walkway is thicker on the P2K than on the Kato. This is my only P2K SD45 on a Kato frame so far: www.gp30.com/models/nw1804/ unfortunately it doesn't really show the frame mods here. And it has been long enough that I don't remember the details. Andy |
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 19, 2012 16:26:16 GMT -8
Thank you Andy,
I have several tools for cutting and grinding, so if I happen to find a Kato chassis I may go for it.
BTW: Was my comment regarding the 60mph top speed of the newer Walthers P2K and Athearn Genesis units accurate or in the ballpark? For freight units on an HO layout, that doesn't sound bad.
But I've read of complaints that the newer Walthers HO P2K E-units run too slow. I do like the top speed of my older P2K E-units. Whenever I've taken them to a club layout to haul a streamliner, I'll hit approximately 75-80mph with them on the mainline stretches.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2012 4:04:30 GMT -8
BTW: Was my comment regarding the 60mph top speed of the newer Walthers P2K and Athearn Genesis units accurate or in the ballpark? For freight units on an HO layout, that doesn't sound bad. Today Bean Sniff and Big Yellow hit 70 mph with intermodal trains over areas of their routes. During the railroad owned passenger service years up until Amtrak, many roads hit 100 mph or more with their passenger trains. |
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 20, 2012 5:50:10 GMT -8
Hi Jim, yes I'm aware of the speeds of the prototypes and enjoy watching the videos of fast freights and passenger expresses. Even as late as 1968, Santa Fe FP45s were clocking 100mph speeds with the El Capitan. I was thinking of the "selective compression" concept as far as speed when running trains on a layout. Wasn't there a good discussion on the old Atlas Forum about this a few years back? Just my opinion, but on a nice club layout with long mainline stretches we can run streamliners and hotshot intermodals at speed and appear realistic.  But on home layouts, like my wife's cousin who has an 11' x 8' x 7' modified folded dogbone layout , most of us would have to employ 24" radius curves. So for simulating realistic top speeds 70mph around those curves would be pushing it, especially with 6-axle locomotives and 85ft passenger cars. Whenever I've run trains on his layout, I limit myself to a top speed of approximately 60 scale mph. But I admit that on a club layout I enjoy watching long streamliners hauled by E-units hit Metroliner speeds on stretches, just like the prototypes.  |
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Post by calzephyr on Jul 20, 2012 7:29:10 GMT -8
Hi Jim, yes I'm aware of the speeds of the prototypes and enjoy watching the videos of fast freights and passenger expresses. Even as late as 1968, Santa Fe FP45s were clocking 100mph speeds with the El Capitan. I was thinking of the "selective compression" concept as far as speed when running trains on a layout. Wasn't there a good discussion on the old Atlas Forum about this a few years back? Just my opinion, but on a nice club layout with long mainline stretches we can run streamliners and hotshot intermodals at speed and appear realistic. But on home layouts, like my wife's cousin who has an 11' x 8' x 7' modified folded dogbone layout , most of us would have to employ 24" radius curves. So for simulating realistic top speeds 70mph around those curves would be pushing it, especially with 6-axle locomotives and 85ft passenger cars. Whenever I've run trains on his layout, I limit myself to a top speed of approximately 60 scale mph. But I admit that on a club layout I enjoy watching long streamliners hauled by E-units hit Metroliner speeds on stretches, just like the prototypes. Antonio Good point about the speeds that are run on home layouts and even most large club layouts do not have long runs for high speeds. Many of the large club layouts are built with mountain scenes simulating famous grades and areas which are limited in speed even on the prototype. I purchased four of the Oakway P2K SD60's to use on coal trains, since the real ones were assigned to this service. Their top speed is slow but so was the heavy coal trains they pulled for many years. The P2K SD7 and SD9's were extremely slow but they run very well as well as most of the first run P2K models. Larry |
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Post by el3637 on Jul 20, 2012 8:18:32 GMT -8
BTW: Was my comment regarding the 60mph top speed of the newer Walthers P2K and Athearn Genesis units accurate or in the ballpark? For freight units on an HO layout, that doesn't sound bad. I haven't tried clocking any of the new P2K stuff. I have some E units and an FM switcher, that's about it. Most any loco is going to run faster on DC than in DCC. A long time ago I compared a bunch of different locos and clocked their top speeds both ways. The average Kato's top speed was about 120, but on DCC it was more like 95. I'm not interested in a "prototypical top speed". If my prototype's top speed is 60 mph, then I'm perfectly capable of running it at that speed, I don't need an artificial restriction. What is important to me about running when it comes to speed is a smooth and responsive curve, and compatibility. Manufacturers who gear down their big diesels to have a top speed of 60 mph are not accomplishing anything except making them incompatible with other manufacturers' big diesels. I've watched the whole "slower is better" thing evolve for almost 50 years, actually going back farther to magazines from the 1950s. To listen to some of these guys, the best running train in the world doesn't move at all. This was of course in response to toy train running and jerky locomotives that wouldn't sustain any running speed under 40 due to either gearing, cheap motors, poor pickup, or some combination of the above. For the most part we don't have those problems anymore - at least not with most diesels. A Kato diesel is fully capable of performing well over the entire speed range of its prototype. It's also capable of going faster than its prototype. So what? Consistency and compatibility are far more important than regulating top speeds to force the slow-is-better mentality. I always get a chuckle when somebody shows off a new loco at the hobby shop by making it creep. There was a time when that meant something. Most locos today can creep, including those with severe binding in the mechanism that will cause them to run hot and burn at normal track speeds. One tie per minute was a bragging right at one time, never mind that it's totally unprototypical. Until the onset of AC traction motors in the 1990s, operating any diesel electric locomotive under those conditions would incinerate the traction motors, and it would have been virtually impossible on a steam loco... probably difficult even for a Shay. Electronics and other hocus pocus mask the crappy mechanics in a lot of locomotives today. My objection to factory sound was, and is, that it takes the focus away from more important things while driving the price up. As to Genesis top speeds.... well, my SD45-2s are quite the scooters. They have Roco motors but 12:1 gearing. I haven't clocked one but I bet they are 120+ top speed on DC. F units have the same motors but 15:1 gearing, so they will run that much slower. Factory DCC of course changes the game, and my observations on DC running strictly refer to straight DC locomotives, not the Tsunamis running on DC, which IMO is just too squirrely to bother with. Andy |
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Post by atsfan on Jul 20, 2012 11:50:05 GMT -8
Thought.............get another SD45 from Proto and just run them in pairs..............? No need to adjust speed then. Realistically their speed is fine for scale. |
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Post by el3637 on Jul 20, 2012 14:10:02 GMT -8
Thought.............get another SD45 from Proto and just run them in pairs..............? If that's all you ever want from it sure, that will work fine - DC or DCC. Even the ridiculous 6:1 geared P2K U-boat is capable of running a prototype speed range. I just have always found matched sets of locomotives boring, as well as uncommon in prototype practice unless you're Chessie and drowning in GP40-2s, or Penn Central with GP38s and even there you have a mix of GP38 and GP38-2. I also find that keeping the same locomotive consists together, even if they're not all the same, is also boring. I know it's common practice to designate certain locos as lead or trailing, and equipping only the lead units with crew figures and headlights. But right now my Superfleet is about 24 locos, and as much as I'd like it to be 100, I'll be lucky to get 24 more built before I die. with only 50-ish locos, mixing them up, turning them around, keeps things interesting. That's what I saw, that's what I want to model. So all Superfleet locos have DCC, matched gearing, the same brand of decoder, and functioning headlights independently and non-directionally controlled at both ends. So you could pick a number from 2 to 6, close your eyes and touch that number of locos, and I could make up a consist with them exactly as they sit, with any one in the lead facing any direction, and it will work. That's pretty much how N&W did it. Andy |
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Post by el3637 on Jul 20, 2012 16:21:13 GMT -8
Why compatibility is important, matched consists are boring, and N&W is cool:  Andy  |
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 20, 2012 17:12:43 GMT -8
I agree that regularly matching consists can become a bit stale after a while. I'm fortunate in that the roads I model often ran mixed units. Except for phosphate trains, the SCL often ran GEs, EMDs and Alcos within the same trains. Frisco, L&N, and RF&P units could often be seen in the mix. Just before Amtrak, E-units were often mixed in with hood units on SCL fast freights back in the late 60s. So this is what I'm looking forward to modeling.
I remember feeling shocked back in 1978 when I saw a long Seaboard Coast Line freight train crawling along at about 10mph being hauled by an EMD Geep lashup.................and behind the caboose was an SW9 pushing the train! Now, that was a funny sight!
Since my entire fleet will be all DCC I should be able to speed match them reasonably close. I don't mind having a 90-100mph top speed. I just want my Atlas, Athearn, P2K, and Stewart units to be able to MU with each other and run smoothly at any speed without severe "bucking and jerking".
So far I have 3 DCC equipped HO units that were set up by Carl of "DCC Geek", and they run like well oiled machines.
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Post by atsfan on Jul 20, 2012 17:23:59 GMT -8
Why compatibility is important, matched consists are boring, and N&W is cool: Andy Well, if you are able to model that awesome consist, then yes indeed rework the drive with Kato !@ Great picture thanks for sharing it. I have a few of the Proto SD45's and I have either run them solo, in pairs, or with a few dummy engines I have (which, in full disclosure, are botched efforts of mine to rework the drives.............)  |
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Post by roadkill on Jul 23, 2012 15:26:15 GMT -8
I think the only ones I have left are the RS27s, which have a 12-tooth axle gear, single screw worm, but an inane 16:17 compound that make it 11.something to 1. I haven't really used them... one PC and one undec - so haven't had to deal with the gearing. Andy Great... I have two RS27's for what I would consider my "Superfleet" and I had no idea they had some funky gear ratio. Guess I'll have to take them apart and see what can be done... maybe find a way to put Atlas C420 trucks underneath them. |
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Post by el3637 on Jul 27, 2012 14:32:35 GMT -8
Well, if you are able to model that awesome consist, then yes indeed rework the drive with Kato ! What's even more amazing is this consist can be modeled, more or less, with RTR locomotives of not-too-distant production. Athearn has done the 1776, Proto did the N&W SD9 (they did 2349, this photo is 2348), and Atlas did all three N&W U30Cs including the 8002, in both silver and master series. Out of the box we're talking three manufacturers, three motors, and two gear ratios. Athearn BB motor, 12:1; Proto China motor, 14:1; Atlas China motor, 14:1. I actually think they'd probably run better on DC than they would on DCC if you just plugged decoders into them as-is... especially if the Atlas used the later master series decoder with the momentum built in that makes it always balky in consists. I am presently working on the SD9 - I actually modeled the same number years ago with an Athearn widebody. Superfleet models of the other two will happen, but the U30C will require heavily kitbashed triple clasp Adirondack sideframes, and I have yet to settle on a method for doing this that isn't compromised in some way. I have the Athearn 1776, and while I'd like to build one for the Superfleet it's fairly far down the list now - and that is Athearn's fault because at one time it was pretty high on the list. Yes, when finished they will all be 14:1 with Kato motors. The SD9 will take a little grinding. The U30C should be a fairly easy drop-in, and the SD45 will be based on a full Kato drive to start with, with a P2K shell. Andy |
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