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Post by northern on Jul 21, 2012 19:56:08 GMT -8
I am taken back by the high price of the new HO brass steam locomotives. The newer locomotives seem to start near the 1,000 mark and up. even 1,500 seems to be on the low size and I am seeing many over the $2,000 mark.
What does the price of new old stock command today. From what I can find, old brass seems to by pushing #1,200-$2,500
What has happened to the mid 1970 's PFM brass, are PFM units going up due to the high cost of new brass?
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Post by nw611 on Jul 22, 2012 1:11:44 GMT -8
Northern, I've been interested in American brass locomotives in the eighties. I gathered a collection of 29 D&RGW locomotives (steam and diesels) that I sold to Orange Blossom Hobbies in Miami, Florida when I left the States in 1989. They paid to me the prices listed on the 1982 Brown Book. I remember that my most expensive loco was a W&R factory painted D&RGW L-107 2-8-8-2, bought new from Pecos River Brass (my main pusher at the time) in 1987 for $ 550. In the 1994 Brown Book the same locomotive was listed at $ 800 (+45%). I think that a similar loco now goes (new) for approximately $ 1,500 (+ 87% on 1994). It is true what I was told 30 years ago: brass locomotives re valuate constantly. Now I can give you an idea of the European market. When I got back to Italy, in 1989, I bought a Fulgurex Italian steam locomotive for the equivalent of € 516. Now the same model, made in Korea for Micro-Metakit or Top Train, is priced around € 1,600. Obviously the new brass locomotives are much more detailed and run much better, but the the price has gone up over 200% on 1989. Ciao. Raffaele
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Post by calzephyr on Jul 22, 2012 6:49:55 GMT -8
I am taken back by the high price of the new HO brass steam locomotives. The newer locomotives seem to start near the 1,000 mark and up. even 1,500 seems to be on the low size and I am seeing many over the $2,000 mark. What does the price of new old stock command today. From what I can find, old brass seems to by pushing #1,200-$2,500 What has happened to the mid 1970 's PFM brass, are PFM units going up due to the high cost of new brass? If you look at brass prices in general at sites like The Caboose and Dan's Brass trains, you can see the prices that both old and new brass and compare them. The more recent PSC and DVP brass is now so expensive now, most of us do not purchase them. My last big purchases were the DVP NP and SP&S Z8's about three years ago. After paying for two of those, I decided to curb my new brass purchases except for special items. You could buy a decent used car for the money these two locomotives cost. I have started to purchase older used brass for the past three years, but only if I believe they are bargains or at least priced in a normal range. The older PFM models are much less money except for a few very rare items which now are extremely expensive. The early PFM Crown models were certainly ahead of their time in detail and running quality, but that era is long past and the latest Samhongsa built models in the 1990 era and now the BooRim and Ajin built models are in a much higher level of detail and operation. It depends on the exact model and how much it is in demand and I usually just skip the model if it is too high in price. Several of the early PFM low production models, less than 50, do command very high prices. I tend to skip that type of model since other imports have been made of most locomotives and they are much less in price. Larry |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2012 10:41:09 GMT -8
I am taken back by the high price of the new HO brass steam locomotives. The newer locomotives seem to start near the 1,000 mark and up. even 1,500 seems to be on the low size and I am seeing many over the $2,000 mark. W & R and Glacier Park Models over the last ten years have imported some of the finest brass steam. Their MSRP prices start at about $1250 and work their way up to $2700 for a non-articulated Mikado. Challenger Imports another high end line's articulated steam is a little over the $2100 mark. What does the price of new old stock command today. From what I can find, old brass seems to by pushing #1,200-$2,500 I'd disagree. You can still find less expensive but still good models from Westside, Sunset, PFM, Oriental and OMI to name a few. I am a Great Northern modeler and an unpainted WSM Great Northern S-2 4-8-4 can be had for under $500. PFM C-1 0-8-0's in the $300 range and PSC GN N-3 2-8-8-0 articulated factory painted in Glacier is $1500. What has happened to the mid 1970 's PFM brass, are PFM units going up due to the high cost of new brass? PFM's have gone up just like most brass models, but thanks to the shaky U.S. economy brass prices have been retreating. The market for even some of the ultra rare W & R pieces have lost considerable ground since 2008. There too many people, especially on e-Bay, feel that a crusty old PFM from 1965 should be as valuable as a W & R from 2002. Some brass dealers are also delusional as to the value of their merchandise. What some do not understand is that we are in a BUYER'S market and NOT a seller's. For the few people still willing to spend the money on brass, the buyer's are basically waiting for the price to get low enough to meet their expectations. When buying a PFM model, you need to know the vintage of the model. A model from the early to mid-1960's is much cruder than a model from the mid-1970's. Again, you see the person, store or dealer trying to get top dollar for an old production model. You'll also see that same seller with that same model year after year. |
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Post by onequiknova on Jul 22, 2012 15:43:40 GMT -8
I've got to agree with Jim.
The used brass market has been soft for a while now. I picked up an unpainted, like new Oriental CB&Q O1A Mikado over the winter for $325.00 from Caboose hobbies. I believe it was made sometime in the mid 80's and is nicely detailed for it's age. It needed a gearbox, but most brass steam does anyway. Ten years ago, my Dad paid over $600 for his painted version. I've got a few examples of some older 60 & 70's brass steam that I picked up for under $300.
There will always be exception. The Gem 1950's built CB&Q O5A 4-8-4's go for over $2000.00 because of their rarity, but a Custom Brass O5A, which is better detailed, can be had for less than 400.00 if you shop around.
My newest brass piece is a 1999ish Challenger CB&Q M2A 2-10-2, which is about as good as it gets detail and running wise. It's beautiful and the smoothest running steam engine I've seen. Sticker price when new somewhere around $1400.00. I paid $900 for mine about 8 years ago from an online dealer. You can still find them for sale today in the $12- 1400.00.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2012 16:08:29 GMT -8
Up until the late 1990's and even into the yearly years of the 2000's, if you wanted a well detailed model of a steam engine you had one choice, brass. Over the last 10 years, plastic and the hybrid brass model have come into their own and many popular locomotives have been done by Broadway Limited, MTH, Walthers and Athearn.
Unlike, the brass model, the new plastic models many times come with sound and DCC installed. Most brass steam engines can be troublesome when it comes to DCC installation. Brass steam is also not DCC friendly in power pick-up. The pick-up with the tender leads to more wiring between tender and locomotive AND stalling and poor operation with a decoder is common.
Another fork in the older brass models from a PFM is the good old Pitman open frame motor. High current draw and rough operation is common with a Pitman. For the few that can work on brass, soldering, installing new gear boxes, painting and electronics, there are many many that can't do that kind of work.
All Brass models including diesels, freight and passenger equipment is retreating in value. Caboose models that sold for $250+ now sell for $125 to $150. Even some of the sought after diesel models are going for a third of their original MSRP.
In brass, as in plastic, you have the exception. But just because one piece sells for a large premium doesn't mean the next piece is going to sell for that price, if at all.
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Post by curtmc on Jul 23, 2012 8:11:08 GMT -8
I'll agree with Jim for the most part - except on his assertion that all brass models are retreating in value...
It all comes down to 4 factors:
(1) How well the brass model was done
(2) How many were made
(3) If there is a plastic equivalent
(4) How many are looking for that brass model
There are some few brass diesels that were produced even in the last 10 years which now go for 150% of their original price or more (BC Rail 8-40CMs and BN B30-7As among them) and even some cabooses that go for 150% of original price as well (Chessie C27As that sold for $200 and now fetch $300-450 are among them)...
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Post by calzephyr on Jul 23, 2012 8:54:37 GMT -8
I've got to agree with Jim. The used brass market has been soft for a while now. I picked up an unpainted, like new Oriental CB&Q O1A Mikado over the winter for $325.00 from Caboose hobbies. I believe it was made sometime in the mid 80's and is nicely detailed for it's age. It needed a gearbox, but most brass steam does anyway. Ten years ago, my Dad paid over $600 for his painted version. I've got a few examples of some older 60 & 70's brass steam that I picked up for under $300. There will always be exception. The Gem 1950's built CB&Q O5A 4-8-4's go for over $2000.00 because of their rarity, but a Custom Brass O5A, which is better detailed, can be had for less than 400.00 if you shop around. My newest brass piece is a 1999ish Challenger CB&Q M2A 2-10-2, which is about as good as it gets detail and running wise. It's beautiful and the smoothest running steam engine I've seen. Sticker price when new somewhere around $1400.00. I paid $900 for mine about 8 years ago from an online dealer. You can still find them for sale today in the $12- 1400.00. That great model seemed to be around for some time probably due to the numbers imported at that time. I purchased the Early UP 4-6-6-4 Challenger by Challenger after that in 2002 or 2003 and it was one of the last items they imported before going out of business. Yes, they are great detailed models and Samhongsa did a great job on their models before stopping all production right after that era. larry |
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Post by calzephyr on Jul 23, 2012 9:00:48 GMT -8
I'll agree with Jim for the most part - except on his assertion that all brass models are retreating in value... It all comes down to 4 factors: (1) How well the brass model was done (2) How many were made (3) If there is a plastic equivalent (4) How many are looking for that brass model There are some few brass diesels that were produced even in the last 10 years which now go for 150% of their original price or more (BC Rail 8-40CMs and BN B30-7As among them) and even some cabooses that go for 150% of original price as well (Chessie C27As that sold for $200 and now fetch $300-450 are among them)... Jim might have a point with the lower prices at least in the past two or three years, but lately, I find they are climbing again. Dan's Brass Trains seems to be pushing prices higher and higher recently. The surprise is the rare and higher priced items are selling. I managed to buy many older models in the last three years at what I consider bargain prices that I would never see again. I would guess it was due to people selling models at reduced prices to raise money. The older models for me are great as I do not run them on layouts with DCC. They probably are not in demand for modelers who want to run DCC. The older models I purchased were about half price of what I would have paid five years ago and are still much lower than recent prices. larry |
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Post by onequiknova on Jul 23, 2012 9:55:22 GMT -8
I've got to agree with Jim. The used brass market has been soft for a while now. I picked up an unpainted, like new Oriental CB&Q O1A Mikado over the winter for $325.00 from Caboose hobbies. I believe it was made sometime in the mid 80's and is nicely detailed for it's age. It needed a gearbox, but most brass steam does anyway. Ten years ago, my Dad paid over $600 for his painted version. I've got a few examples of some older 60 & 70's brass steam that I picked up for under $300. There will always be exception. The Gem 1950's built CB&Q O5A 4-8-4's go for over $2000.00 because of their rarity, but a Custom Brass O5A, which is better detailed, can be had for less than 400.00 if you shop around. My newest brass piece is a 1999ish Challenger CB&Q M2A 2-10-2, which is about as good as it gets detail and running wise. It's beautiful and the smoothest running steam engine I've seen. Sticker price when new somewhere around $1400.00. I paid $900 for mine about 8 years ago from an online dealer. You can still find them for sale today in the $12- 1400.00. That great model seemed to be around for some time probably due to the numbers imported at that time. I purchased the Early UP 4-6-6-4 Challenger by Challenger after that in 2002 or 2003 and it was one of the last items they imported before going out of business. Yes, they are great detailed models and Samhongsa did a great job on their models before stopping all production right after that era. larry Challenger Imports imported three versions of the M2A's. One with an Elesco FWH, one with a Worthington, and an oil burning C&S version. I don't know the numbers imported, but you can still find the Worthington version NIB pretty regularly. That's the version I have, btw. The other two versions don't show up nearly as often. Challenger did a whole series of CB&Q steam around that time. They did the 4-6-4's, 4-8-4's, 2-10-2's and 2-10-4's. The 2-10-4's seem to be the rarest, and hardly ever show up for sale, and when they do, they fetch a premium. |
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Post by calzephyr on Jul 23, 2012 10:29:54 GMT -8
That great model seemed to be around for some time probably due to the numbers imported at that time. I purchased the Early UP 4-6-6-4 Challenger by Challenger after that in 2002 or 2003 and it was one of the last items they imported before going out of business. Yes, they are great detailed models and Samhongsa did a great job on their models before stopping all production right after that era. larry Challenger Imports imported three versions of the M2A's. One with an Elesco FWH, one with a Worthington, and an oil burning C&S version. I don't know the numbers imported, but you can still find the Worthington version NIB pretty regularly. That's the version I have, btw. The other two versions don't show up nearly as often. Challenger did a whole series of CB&Q steam around that time. They did the 4-6-4's, 4-8-4's, 2-10-2's and 2-10-4's. The 2-10-4's seem to be the rarest, and hardly ever show up for sale, and when they do, they fetch a premium. The M4's do bring a bit of money and they are very nice indeed. The problem with importing all of the CB&Q locomotives in such a short time is most of us do not have the mad money to purchase them and some will stay on the market. My dad and I use to go to the roundhouse at Centrailia Illinois and climb on the 6313, 6311 and one other M4 in 56 and 57. The shop crew would allows show the locomotives and they were great looking. They were under steam but not running on weekends so I did not see them run. Sad! Larry |
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Post by onequiknova on Jul 23, 2012 10:51:45 GMT -8
Although I'd love a Challenger M4A, I just can't spend that kind of coin anymore. I've got an old Nickel Plate M4A that I am completely rebuilding. I scratchbuilt a cab for it, and found a correct Baker valve gear for it that surprisingly will fit like a glove, including all the rods and cranks. It's been on the back burner for a while though.
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Post by calzephyr on Jul 23, 2012 11:04:09 GMT -8
Although I'd love a Challenger M4A, I just can't spend that kind of coin anymore. I've got an old Nickel Plate M4A that I am completely rebuilding. I scratchbuilt a cab for it, and found a correct Baker valve gear for it that surprisingly will fit like a glove, including all the rods and cranks. It's been on the back burner for a while though. If I remember correctly, that model had the cab mounted too high, but I did not realize it was incorrect. It sounds like it will be much better when finished and should be nice. Larry |
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Post by onequiknova on Jul 23, 2012 11:24:59 GMT -8
If I remember correctly, that model had the cab mounted too high, but I did not realize it was incorrect. It sounds like it will be much better when finished and should be nice. Larry This is the original cab that has bee lowered onto the boiler some. It's a hair short from front to back, but it's main problem is it's complete lack of rivet detail. This was my very first foray in modifying brass, so it's a little sloppy. I'll probably redo some of it.  The new cab. the rivets don't show up in the pics too well, but they're there. Of coarse, rivet decals weren't available back when I did this. Nowadays I would have just used the decals.   |
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Post by calzephyr on Jul 23, 2012 11:36:47 GMT -8
Great! That looks much better just to get it lowered. This is a problem with some of the older brass that were imported and just sold as is. My friend, Ray Brown of the Brown book had one and modified it to make it look much better. Speaking of great CB&Q locomotives, I went to Golden Museum two weeks ago and viewed the 5629 again. It is nice to see such a great 4-8-4 and imagine the glory days of that locomotive. There are three other CB&Q 4-8-4's still out there in parks, but they are stilled forever except in our models. I have one of the older Custom Brass models, but it is in poor shape. It was such a bargain, I purchased it last year.
He also lowered the boiler on the first run Tenshodo SF 4-6-4 Hudson. The boiler was mounted way too high on the older runs of the Hudson, but this might have been corrected on some of the latest versions.
Larry
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Post by onequiknova on Jul 23, 2012 11:48:23 GMT -8
I hear you on the errors of old brass. I've got an old LMB S2 Pacific that has the feed water pump mounted upside down. I guess they all came that way. The smoke box front in completely wrong too. That's another one that's receiving a complete rebuild. The LMB O1A's are kind of odd looking too. I tore one apart to use the chassis under a scratchbuilt O2A boiler, and am thinking about useing the original LMB boiler to make an S3 pacific. They shared the same boiler.
As for 5629. Back when The friends of 261 were losing their MLW 261 lease, It was rumored that 5629 was one of the loco's they went and looked as a replacment. Wouldn't that have been sweet.
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Post by calzephyr on Jul 23, 2012 13:28:09 GMT -8
I hear you on the errors of old brass. I've got an old LMB S2 Pacific that has the feed water pump mounted upside down. I guess they all came that way. The smoke box front in completely wrong too. That's another one that's receiving a complete rebuild. The LMB O1A's are kind of odd looking too. I tore one apart to use the chassis under a scratchbuilt O2A boiler, and am thinking about useing the original LMB boiler to make an S3 pacific. They shared the same boiler. As for 5629. Back when The friends of 261 were losing their MLW 261 lease, It was rumored that 5629 was one of the loco's they went and looked as a replacment. Wouldn't that have been sweet. The 5629 would have been a jewel for sure, but the 261 is well liked and has been a great locomotive on the excursion scene. I got to see it at Steamtown a few years ago. I like it since it is a variety of locomotives built during the war. It has been described as having the D&H power plants on Rock Island frames, with Milwaukee Road cabs and hauling an early FEF-1 UP tender. Interesting locomotive that became a crowd favorite. Larry |
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Post by valenciajim on Jul 23, 2012 21:02:50 GMT -8
Last winter I purchased a Krauss Moffei brass loco. It was not cheap, but I really wanted it. This is the first brass loco I have purchased in several years. I do not expect to buy another in quite a while.
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Post by calzephyr on Jul 24, 2012 11:12:53 GMT -8
Last winter I purchased a Krauss Moffei brass loco. It was not cheap, but I really wanted it. This is the first brass loco I have purchased in several years. I do not expect to buy another in quite a while. Jim That was probably the Overland version, right??? I have decided to hold off on any more purchases for now also. I have one last one on layaway which will be shipped this coming month, but no more at this time. Overland made a camera car version also after the SP modified unit for video training. larry |
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