AT&SF passenger car modelers...couple of questions

[jaygee]

Ahoy there! I've got questions for the Santa Fe passenger guys. This concerns the Walthers lightweight PS cars from the the last few years. First up is the 8-2-2 car from the S.F. Chief. Near as I can tell, this is a prewar car, and I wonder what interior mods were made to the prototypes over the years prior to the cars showing up in the new S.F. Chief in the mid '50s. Can't imagine the open hoppers still be tolerated at that point. I also wondered about the last years of service for these cars, with their open sections. Next is the 10-3-2 cars. What is the time frame and history on these cars? And lastly, recommend a good book to cover AT&SF passenger cars with interior views and floor plans, if possible. Thanks !

[Great-Northern-Willmar Div]

Mar 15, 2015 15:07:01 GMT -8 jaygee said:

 Can't imagine the open hoppers still be tolerated at that point.

If you are talking about dumping of waste on the tracks, that wasn't addressed until Amtrak's years.

The 8-2-2's were converted to coaches in the late 50's early 1960's.

[atsfan]

Open hoppers lasted well into the 1970's.

[jaygee]

True about the poop shoots! No I was referring to the enclosed toilets that came into use during the war on rooms for more than one occupant. The Walthers cars has open potties but roads like NYCS had their pre war BRs rebuilt and enclosed as soon as the war ended. How about Santa Fe?

[lajrmdlr]

Check out the Yahoo Group Santa Fe (2) & pax forums. Once in do a search for this & any other subject matter. They are all free to join.

[Spikre]

??
did any of the cars rebuilt as Coaches end up on EL/NJDOT trains?
they were just called the "Santa Fe's".
cant recall ever riding in any.
later they went to CNJ when all the Push-Pulls had arrived.
just wondering,they were supposed to be Pre-War cars,but still looked
rather good in 1970.
Spikre

[WP 257]

The Budd cars, in particular, held up extremely well. Some of the cars from other makers who used Cor-Ten steel or other steels suffered rust issues beneath the stainless steel side panels that required rebuilding, or ultimately shortened their lives.

I thought I heard that some cars went to EL/NJDOT, but I have no numbers or data to back that up.

Perhaps someone else does.

[gmpullman]

This book probably has what you are looking for but this particular one is a bit pricey... I have seen it for less. Keep watching. They are invaluable for anyone doing Pullman research. There are similar books by Randall covering Budd, A.C.F. and St. Louis cars as well.

Santa Fe Pullman Standard Library


A group I was involved in back in the 1970s had a few NYC and Pullman pool cars from 1938 and they still had the open toilets in the bedroom suites. I can't say about the Santa Fe but I'm not aware of very many having been rebuilt with the enclosed "Annex" as it was known by Pullman. Of course the roomettes had hoppers in each room that you had to raise the bed in order to use it.



_{Pullman Standard Co. Photo}

How cozy, you could open both hoppers and have a nice side-by-side chitty-chat! This photo shows the bedroom "en-suite" with the partition folded back.

This site may be of some help to you in your quest: Santa Fe Passenger Cars
Good luck in your research, Ed

[buffalobill]

Actually a group of former Santa Fe and Rock Island Budd build long haul coaches ended up on the Penn Central Metropolitan region in 1970 courtesy of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority. The NJ DOT cars were largely former Burlington Northern Pullman and ACF built cars that came slightly later. The MTA Budd cars were converted to commuter seating and served until the upper Harlem electrification was completed in the mid 1980's.
Bill

[Spikre]

the "Santa Fe" cars came to EL around late 67,or early 68,maybe 30-40
cars were used. owned by NJDOT they didn't go past Suffern, and stayed
in NJ on the DL&W lines.
a train or two would tie up in the Waldwick Yard,others at Suffern.
can only recall E8s pulling them,but sure that RS's and GP7s did
now and then.the PAs were west and cant recall them ever pulling any
in regular service, maybe an Excursion or 2 ??
the "Empire Builder" cars were used on the CNJ Bayhead trains,cars were
in GN Green and Orange,Sky Blue and BN,they came around 1970 maybe.
don't recall them being used on PC trains until NJDOT took over those trains.
they were South of the usual areas that were railfanned ,so only saw them
at Bayhead during the summer.
anyone have more info on them ??
some may have been repainted Jersey Transit later ?
Spikre

[buffalobill]

Spiker are you talking about the NJ DOT 300 series, ex Rock Island cars that arrived about 1968. I believe they were not stainless cars, but steel cars with stainless fluting. Some of them were early casualties. Lasting 10 ore less years in NJ.
Bill

[jaygee]

My question was based on the new Walthers incarnation of the S.F. Chief in HO. I found it hard to figure that Santa Fe would use the cars the way Walthers did the interiors on a new first class train as late as 1954. I've got plenty of sheet styrene should they need to be enclosed. Those 8-2-2 cars would be likely targetsm for early coach conversions with eight sections slowing 'em down. OTOH, could be that S.F. had a market for these, a little later than we think.

[Spikre]

Bill,
never heard the Stainless cars called Rock Island cars.
they were always referred to as "Santa Fe's".
walked around them on weekends when they stayed put in the
Waldwick Yard.they had Trucks that were on the pre-war Santa
Fe Budd cars.am sure they were Stainless cars.
if NJDOT did buy Rock Island cars they didn't run on the EL
lines.
the Push Pull trains eliminated all but the Port Jervis trains,
they used the Long Distance Stillwell's until NJDOT came to an
agreement with Metro North/NY State around 74.
there are really good pics of the Trains moving the Stillwell's
back to Hoboken.1 main train,and at least 1 smaller train,then the
Push Pulls went to Port Jervis.
for awhile the U34CHs were used on weekend freights,then they weren't,
then they were again sparingly until CR.
NJDOT finally realized they ran better after a good run to Hornell or
Binghamton and back to Hoboken.
seems they may have Carboned Up easily ?
Spikre

[Great-Northern-Willmar Div]

Mar 17, 2015 14:36:28 GMT -8 jaygee said:

My question was based on the new Walthers incarnation of the S.F. Chief in HO. I found it hard to figure that Santa Fe would use the cars the way Walthers did the interiors on a new first class train as late as 1954. I've got plenty of sheet styrene should they need to be enclosed. Those 8-2-2 cars would be likely targetsm for early coach conversions with eight sections slowing 'em down. OTOH, could be that S.F. had a market for these, a little later than we think.

Both the Northern Pacific on their premier train the North Coast Limited and the Great Northern on the Empire Builder had the double bedroom cars with the hopper that came out of the cabinet.

[Spikre]

Bill,
the main Rock Island item that would show up in NJ around
1970 was their Bay Window Cabbies.
the run thru power would mostly turn at Marion,sometimes
Hornell or Binghamton,rarely Port Jervis,and very rare
was a Full Run to Croxton Yard.
personally never saw any Rock Locos in NJ or lower NY State.
Spikre

[jaygee]

Really..on the GN and NP ? It would be a stretch to see the old pre-war toilets on the '47 Builder...but on the '51 and '52 cars ! ! ! Hard to imagine. I know Espee made it a point to isolate the pre-war 10-5s for this reason. Same with the American Series 6-6-4s on the Coast and Overland routes.

[Great-Northern-Willmar Div]

Mar 17, 2015 15:52:52 GMT -8 jaygee said:

Really..on the GN and NP ? It would be a stretch to see the old pre-war toilets on the '47 Builder...but on the '51 and '52 cars ! ! ! Hard to imagine. I know Espee made it a point to isolate the pre-war 10-5s for this reason. Same with the American Series 6-6-4s on the Coast and Overland routes.

Actually on the Northern Pacific's Pullman-Standard built 8-6-3-1, Plan 4119, and the 4-1-buffet-observation, Plan 4120, all lot 6781 had the pull out toilet in the bedrooms. All cars were built in 1948 and stayed in NCL service until about 1967.

GN plans. See bedroom A and B on the 6-4-1 observation.

www.gngoat.org/accommodations.htm

[Great-Northern-Willmar Div]

The Great Northern's first edition of the Empire Builder which was built and put into service in 1946 and 1947 had the toilet that popped out of the trap door in its bedrooms. These cars were reassigned in 1951 to the Western Star which operated between Chicago and Seattle. The 16-4 "Glacier" series sleeper continued to provide service on the Mid-Century Empire Builder as a connecting car.

The Western Star continued into the Burlington Northern and ended with the formation of Amtrak.

www.gngoat.org/acc14.jpg

[jbilbrey]

Some of the ex-ATSF Budd coaches were retired by Amtrak still with open hoppers. The local museum has several from the Amtrak 4700 series (ex-ATSF 48-seat coaches) that are still straight-flush.

James Bilbrey
LaVergne, TN

[buffalobill]

Bob: Check out this Rock Island Technical society website covering the disposition of their passenger equipment. A number of the early Rock Island lightweights in the RI 300 series were acquired by NJ DOT in 1968, and renumbered into the NJ DOT 300 series. They had stainless steel exteriors, and were equipped with the light weight trucks you mentioned, that managed to magnify all of the shortcomings of the Erie Lack of money's MOW procedures. They appear to have been mostly gone by the mid 1970's. By the time I got to Conrail they were just a bad memory. The trucks were a problem. A few of the postwar Rock Island Budd's were picked up by the MTA in 1970 for service on the the Penn Central Metropolitan region. There may have been a few Santa Fe cars that filled out the number series. But most were Rock Island cars.
www.rits.org/www/equipment/ripassdisp.html
Bill

[gmpullman]

I have a 1961 issue of The Pullman Company descriptive List Of Cars that lists the Santa Fe 8-2-2s as still being plan No. 4058A with no mention of a rebuilding and the 10-3-2 Blue series as still being plan No. 4145 again with no mention of a rebuild.

A pretty extensive list of disposition of Santa Fe cars can be found here:    RPN Santa Fe discussion

Including chair cars and coaches sold in the East.

Hope that helps, Ed

[Spikre]

Bill,
the Budd cars on the ex-Erie Mainline were Pre-War former El Capitan Coaches.
Larry DeYoung says they came in 1970,but GE started building the 1st U34CHs
in 11/69,so they started arriving either late 69,or early 70,were in service
shortly after that.
can recall the Santa Fe cars well before the Push Pulls arrived and parked
at the Waldwick Yard.
the roofs on the Santa Fe cars had the Budd ribs,we could go on the pedestrian
bridge in Waldwick and see the roofs of the cars clearly.
when they arrived the Santa Fe cars parked with Stillwell and Wyatt Earp cars
before the Push Pulls arrived.
what NJ Transit did after CR day isn't known here,left the area shortly after
the CR start up.
if Rock Island cars ran on the ex-EL lines then wasn't there to see or ride
the cars.
the switch over from Santa Fe cars to the "Boom Box" Comet car trains was actually
rather quick on the Mainline.
that is the reason the Santa Fe cars weren't ridden.
seemed to go from Stillwells to Push Pulls very quickly.
the EL Frieght and Passenger Color Guide doesn't have the Santa Fe Cars,but it does
have the Comet cars.
why is that ??
because originally EL owned about 25% of the Comet cars and the U34CHs,the Bankruptcy
changed that,and NJDOT stopped the Weekend use of the U34CHs on freights for awhile.
personally don't care about whatever happened after 4/1/76 in NJ.
but am highly interested in everything before that date.
Spikre

[jaygee]

Is it even remotely possible that the Yampai car still exists? Perhaps shoved into the weeds of New Jersey in some remote location. If so, I wonder if the original configuration could be restored. There would certainly be easier cars to restore, but these 8-2-2s are Santa Fe at it's most outrageous !

[Spikre]

Bill,
have found a pic of a CNJ "Red Barron" GP7 in Newark's Penn Station,the cars behind the
Geep look to be silver smooth side cars that may be the former Rock Island cars.
never saw cars like that on the ex-Erie main in NJ.
and could walk down to the Waldwick Coach Yard whenever the urge struck.
but the CNJ Push-Pulls seen at Aldene had the older CNJ-Reading style commuter cars.
the GP40P would be on one end,and the GP7s would be on the other end.
most of those trains were in CNJ-B&O Blue,with a few yeeech green straglers thrown in
to show how poor CNJ was in the 70s.
up until CR Day the Ex-Erie Main trackage was kept in top shape,while the NJ&NY,and the
NY&GL were slightly lower maintained and didn't have the deep ballast of the Main Line,
or Bergen County Line.
Spikre