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Post by nw611 on Jul 27, 2012 1:31:39 GMT -8
Tangent Scale Models announced some new paint schemes for its Bethlem Quad Hopper (a new CRR, CSXT, DTI, a new ICG and WC ex CRR). I would like to know from Dave Olsen if the new CRR and the CSX paint schemes are correct. Thanks.
Raffaele
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Post by drolsen on Jul 27, 2012 4:17:53 GMT -8
Raffaele - The Tangent paint schemes are very accurate and well done, but unfortunately they are stand-ins on this particular model. The prototype CRR / L&N / CSXT cars that they are meant to represent were also built by Bethlehem Steel and look very similar, but the UP prototype is 7" taller, and the design of the end ladder "cages" is slightly different. My friend Brian Bennett has already completed a couple conversions to lower the height of the Tangent model and modify other details to more accurately represent the CSX cars (I have one in progress myself): www.contrailroads.com/csxt-347732/What stands out most to me is the tops of the car ends - on the CSX prototype, the angled slope sheets come to a "point" at the tops of the ends. There's almost no vertical "wall" at the end of the hopper body. The CSX cars have a sheet metal plate mounted on the car end where the car number is painted because there's not enough surface area on the end of the car body for the lettering. Because the UP cars are taller, they have a short vertical "wall" at the tops of the car ends: UP: drolsen.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1676268CSXT: drolsen.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2315418I provided my photos of the CSX car above to Tangent for the lettering on the CSX model: drolsen.rrpicturearchives.net/rsPicture.aspx?id=577055Tangent did a great job of matching the lettering. It's been kind of troubling for me to see these paint schemes produced, because I really want to see a correct model of the Eastern (CRR/L&N/CSXT) version of this car, but I also know that many people will be happy to have a beautifully-painted, highly detailed stand-in of these cars. I also know that producing stand-ins like these will help Tangent fund future models, which will undoubtedly be as fantastic as the ones they've released so far. I think it's unlikely that anyone will ever produce an accurate model of the Eastern car, since most people will be satisfied with the Tangent model, so I'm personally going to continue working on kitbashes like Brian built. Hope that helps, Dave |
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Post by curtmc on Jul 27, 2012 5:33:34 GMT -8
The Tangent model body as done is correct for UP. They could have done the other variant correct for L&N, CRR, CSX, WC and others but did not. It would have been nice if the UP version had sold well enough to fund a correct eastern version, but apparently it didn't and now they are trying to make up for slow UP sales by offering the other eastern roadnames on the UP car.
In the unit coal train land of decades of $5-7 kits (and yes, many foobies), and $10-15 RTR cars - and yes, many foobies in those too (which in my opinion still look nice in a unit coal train where most observers are not going to be looking at details) - these are a nicely detailed and very nicely painted $32 foobie...
If there were more guys like Dave who would put $100 in materials, time and effort into doing a correct CSX coal car then perhaps there would be an adequate market for Tangent to offer a correct CRR/L&N/FL/SBD/CSX quad hopper.
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Post by riogrande on Jul 27, 2012 6:54:24 GMT -8
From what I observed of the UP sales, the mineral red versions sold the most quickly, and if there was any version I would be interested in is the mineral red UP which looks like the one in the link provided by Dave. I suppose it was the less popular black UP versions that didn't sell as well.
I believe the mineral red version ran on the D&RGW west end as I've seen coal trains on D&RGW rails with those hoppers in them. I'll have to go back and research to recall which trains but the region I plan on modeling includes the west Colorado/Utah desert area around Grand Junction and west. Of course the Tangent coal cars are gorgeous but the price is off putting for me when I have higher priority items I am slowly adding month by month as I get caught up on products offered during the past few years that I couldn't afford to keep up with.
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Post by drolsen on Jul 27, 2012 8:38:57 GMT -8
From what I've seen, the UP paint schemes all sold very well, although the mineral red cars definitely sold faster. The black scheme is understandably less popular, especially since some of them represent newer repaints, but they all did well. The challenge for a small company like Tangent is that it takes several runs (I would guess 4 or 5) of a model like this to pay off the expensive tooling involved. Tangent just can't produce the number of models needed in a single run to pay off the tooling. I think that would be a bad idea anyway, because almost no one could afford to buy all of these expensive cars that they would want at one time.
Tangent received a lot of request from Eastern models who didn't mind the differences between the UP prototype and the Eastern cars - they just wanted to see the CRR and L&N paint schemes on this model. I can't blame Tangent for wanting to make some additional sales by offering these schemes, if people want to buy them. I'd much rather have an accurate model, but the way I look at it, I'm probably going to see other models from Tangent that I really want (like maybe a better PS 4570 covered hopper, or the Trinity version).
I don't like stand-in models and don't buy them, because I'm concerned that they hurt the chances of us getting accurate models of those prototypes, but I don't fault manufacturers for them if they are up front about them being stand-ins, and I don't fault people that buy them because they want to have a model that's "close enough" to represent cars that they need to operate their layout. Since I don't have a layout at the moment and probably won't for a number of years now, I'm more interested in building accurate models, but I'm certainly not turning them out very quickly (which is why I don't have many photos to share). I know most people out there that have a layout to build and operate can't afford to put the time into kitbashing models like I like to.
Dave
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Post by nw611 on Jul 27, 2012 12:10:34 GMT -8
In any case Tangent Scale Models, even though some of its models are not 100% accurate, is doing a great job and deserves our support. Ciao. Raffaele
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Post by curtmc on Jul 27, 2012 14:41:11 GMT -8
From what I've seen, the UP paint schemes all sold very well... Dave Dave, that's' what I thought too until I noticed that (even at this point several months later) that every UP scheme except scheme 2 (original black scheme) is still in stock at Tangent... I agree on the foobies when the manufacturer is up front on saying they are not correct (being honest with the consumer)... As to taking multiple runs to pay off a car model... Well, Spring Mills only did a single run of the B&O/Chessie/CSX Can Stock boxcars - total of 1,000 cars - and supposedly broke even... True, that was only 3 schemes, total of 18 numbers, and at a higher MSRP of $50, but would Tangent really need to sell 5,000 or more of a car to make it viable? |
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Post by atsfan on Jul 27, 2012 19:03:29 GMT -8
My observations have the UP Mineral Red Cars still in stores with the various black ones not.
The Clinchfield cars are not seen much by me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2012 9:32:52 GMT -8
Don't know how the UP red ones sold nationally...but they are now available again on Tangent's website.
I agree with Dave and Curt regarding the foobie scheme stuff...I think the fact that people will accept the ICG cars (the first run sold out) despite the fact that they are supposed to represent a 14 panel Centralia quad...while being a 12 panel car...eliminates the possibility of the actual car being done at least by Tangent. Maybe a special run could be tooled up of the body...with the investment of would-be buyers...using the Tangent sill, frame, brake platforms? After seeing Dave's presentation on what it costs to produce a model...I can completely understand the need to get the most out of his tooling thus far.
I bought the UP red ones in the first offering in 2010...a 36 car train...sold a few off...bought some of the second run...and still have 30 cars here...all UP red. They are the best coal hopper I have ever owned. I only hope that someday the MP versions would come around...since they are still going strong on UP today...from an original 5000+ cars in the late 1970's.
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ronb
New Member
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Post by ronb on Aug 24, 2012 12:05:50 GMT -8
As to taking multiple runs to pay off a car model... Well, Spring Mills only did a single run of the B&O/Chessie/CSX Can Stock boxcars - total of 1,000 cars - and supposedly broke even... True, that was only 3 schemes, total of 18 numbers, and at a higher MSRP of $50, but would Tangent really need to sell 5,000 or more of a car to make it viable?
Read more: atlasrescueforum.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=hoforum&action=post&thread=370&page=1#ixzz24Un23mEC Well Curt, SMD lost money on each car and used sales from their FV B&O M53 custom run and their boxes and bags to help pay for the project....plus all of their time was free (not to mention they still have Chessie and CSX canstocks in stock!). So when Tangent needs 5000 to break even, I believe it. And Tangent has lower overhead than most. The big guys all need 10,000 to break even. |
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