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Post by The Ferro Kid on May 25, 2015 9:00:02 GMT -8
(SNIP) The thing is for us, we didn't have to discount their product for it to sell. If a new kit or miniatures came out the customers would come in and buy at full retail and not bat a eye. Which was a big difference from when I ran a train shop. The war gamers just wanted the products as soon as they were available. They never waited for items to go on sale. They would travel around and go from store to store until they found what they wanted. That's why we kept our store heavily stocked and had orders coming in twice a week. Every now and then there's a niche like that. I suspect it has to do with the age demographic -- a young crowd not yet having children, expensive teenagers and kids in college, a mortgage payment, or a retirement to worry about saving for. |
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Post by atsfan on May 26, 2015 13:08:40 GMT -8
I don't know of any growing company that uses MAP.
Enforcing the sales back end is a rear guard tactic.
The only company that gets away with it that I know of is Apple, which doesn't really count since they limit their sales channels so much.
But they must make products people want and will pay for. That is the secret for any company. Not MAP and enforcement.
Camera companies try it, but I said growing company, which they are not.
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Post by Brakie on May 26, 2015 15:52:53 GMT -8
(SNIP) The thing is for us, we didn't have to discount their product for it to sell. If a new kit or miniatures came out the customers would come in and buy at full retail and not bat a eye. Which was a big difference from when I ran a train shop. The war gamers just wanted the products as soon as they were available. They never waited for items to go on sale. They would travel around and go from store to store until they found what they wanted. That's why we kept our store heavily stocked and had orders coming in twice a week. Every now and then there's a niche like that. I suspect it has to do with the age demographic -- a young crowd not yet having children, expensive teenagers and kids in college, a mortgage payment, or a retirement to worry about saving for. You underestimate the ages of gamers..Like everything else you'll find gamers of all ages-we even have a senior citizen war game club for ages 55 and above(they have around 33 members last time I heard).Gaming knows no age barrier. |
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Post by WP 257 on May 26, 2015 17:24:24 GMT -8
atsfan--
Look at what is right in front of your nose.
The MTH locomotives on MB Klein's website have been MAP for at least the last couple years. I shop the website all the time, and I just checked (again) to verify: most of the larger ticket MTH engines still currently are MAP. Athearn is doing nothing new.
Whether some actually want to admit it or not, MTH's sales and market share have been growing in recent years. They are no longer just a "glorified tinplate" company.
I also know of at least one train store that replaced the Exactrail display area of their store with MTH products. Some of the MTH freight cars are competitively priced and very well detailed, and some could be better, but they are factually taking market share from the other manufacturers (not necessarily limited to those who went direct sale only)
John
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Post by atsfan on May 26, 2015 18:30:49 GMT -8
atsfan-- Look at what is right in front of your nose. The MTH locomotives on MB Klein's website have been MAP for at least the last couple years. I shop the website all the time, and I just checked (again) to verify: most of the larger ticket MTH engines still currently are MAP. Athearn is doing nothing new. Whether some actually want to admit it or not, MTH's sales and market share have been growing in recent years. They are no longer just a "glorified tinplate" company. I also know of at least one train store that replaced the Exactrail display area of their store with MTH products. Some of the MTH freight cars are competitively priced and very well detailed, and some could be better, but they are factually taking market share from the other manufacturers (not necessarily limited to those who went direct sale only) John MTH is not a growing company. O scale sales are way down in the last 5 years. Maybe market share vs Lionel is up. But not sales. And in HO they are a very minor player. |
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Post by Brakie on May 27, 2015 2:47:47 GMT -8
And in HO they are a very minor player.
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I don't think I would call MTH a minor player since they offer several types of locomotives unlike other minor players that offers very little and hasn't released or announced any new models in the last 3 years..
As far as O Scale..I guess you don't attend many train shows? There is a wide selection of new models that isn't that much more then HO.
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Post by atsfan on May 27, 2015 5:28:08 GMT -8
And in HO they are a very minor player. ------------------------------------ I don't think I would call MTH a minor player since they offer several types of locomotives unlike other minor players that offers very little and hasn't released or announced any new models in the last 3 years.. As far as O Scale..I guess you don't attend many train shows? There is a wide selection of new models that isn't that much more then HO. Yes wide selection But it would be very optimistic to say the O scale model train market is growing. |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on May 27, 2015 7:33:00 GMT -8
atsfan,
A growing company does use MAP: Rapido. They announced their MAP before they ever released their first model. It caused quite a stir at the time. Also, Digitrax and NCE use MAP, and perhaps Lenz. The Rapido MAP and the DCC company's MAP are set at either 20% or 22.5%, IIRC (it's why every DCC website sells at the same price, within pennies). The 15% MAP for Athearn products is a bit high (or low, depending on one's point of view).
Brakie,
MTH is a very minor player in HO scale, at least around here (Mass.). At my 70-member club, we have 1450 engines on our roster. I just checked, and the number of MTH engines on that roster is 4. Yes, four locos. That's it. There are 3 SD70ACe's and 1 Triplex out of 1450 total locos (0.2%). By comparison, there's 369 Atlas, 174 BLI, and 171 P2K locos. Even Overland represents 44 on our roster. MTH HO does not sell well in these parts, and is not stocked well (if at all) at the LHS's.
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Post by Brakie on May 27, 2015 9:18:42 GMT -8
Paul,I think we have one or two MTH engines in our club but,still MTH offers several types of locomotives unlike the other minor players that offers very little and hasn't had any new releases or announcements for some time.
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Post by atsfan on May 27, 2015 11:22:12 GMT -8
atsfan, A growing company does use MAP: Rapido. They announced their MAP before they ever released their first model. It caused quite a stir at the time. Also, Digitrax and NCE use MAP, and perhaps Lenz. The Rapido MAP and the DCC company's MAP are set at either 20% or 22.5%, IIRC (it's why every DCC website sells at the same price, within pennies). The 15% MAP for Athearn products is a bit high (or low, depending on one's point of view). Brakie, MTH is a very minor player in HO scale, at least around here (Mass.). At my 70-member club, we have 1450 engines on our roster. I just checked, and the number of MTH engines on that roster is 4. Yes, four locos. That's it. There are 3 SD70ACe's and 1 Triplex out of 1450 total locos (0.2%). By comparison, there's 369 Atlas, 174 BLI, and 171 P2K locos. Even Overland represents 44 on our roster. MTH HO does not sell well in these parts, and is not stocked well (if at all) at the LHS's. Ok Rapido. Good catch. I am not worked up one way or the other as if I want something I will find it at a discount. |
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Post by WP 257 on May 27, 2015 12:59:31 GMT -8
MTH and BLI both sell reasonably well around here. The stores I happen to visit have both makes in stock, with freight cars from both also on hand.
I can enter a local store and find western steam power without having to pre-order, as they get some of everything just for stock.
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Post by calzephyr on May 28, 2015 12:18:42 GMT -8
I just received an email today from Overland announcing the MAP pricing on the latest Athearn. MAP is in and large discounts are out.
Larry
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on May 28, 2015 15:20:49 GMT -8
I personally don't know or understand the thinking of the manufacturers behind using MAP. Some dealers still end up offering the model for a price below MAP, you just have to do some extra steps or ask different questions.
Now, where the manufacturer can more or less force retailers to only offer the MAP price or above is to slice the dealer discount. Then dealers in order to make money can't discount the price any lower than MAP. Athearn and Walthers cut their dealer discounts a few years ago. Lionel and MTH in O have long had dealer discounts so small, the dealer is forced to sell at MSRP or maybe about 5% off MSRP, if the dealer is to make even a few dollars on some very expensive items.
MAP isn't the end of the world for the buying power of the average hobbyist. Slashing dealer discounts will put a hurtin' on the buying power of the average hobbyist.
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Post by riogrande on May 28, 2015 16:22:11 GMT -8
This whole discussion reminds me of an old song by Joe South: Games People Play.
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Post by atsfan on May 28, 2015 16:35:13 GMT -8
I just received an email today from Overland announcing the MAP pricing on the latest Athearn. MAP is in and large discounts are out. Larry And sales are down as a result. RIP |
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Post by atsfan on May 28, 2015 16:36:33 GMT -8
I personally don't know or understand the thinking of the manufacturers behind using MAP. Some dealers still end up offering the model for a price below MAP, you just have to do some extra steps or ask different questions. Now, where the manufacturer can more or less force retailers to only offer the MAP price or above is to slice the dealer discount. Then dealers in order to make money can't discount the price any lower than MAP. Athearn and Walthers cut their dealer discounts a few years ago. Lionel and MTH in O have long had dealer discounts so small, the dealer is forced to sell at MSRP or maybe about 5% off MSRP, if the dealer is to make even a few dollars on some very expensive items. MAP isn't the end of the world for the buying power of the average hobbyist. Slashing dealer discounts will put a hurtin' on the buying power of the average hobbyist. The O scale market is a poor guide to success for the HO market. Name one person who uses DCS in HO for example. |
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Post by atsfan on May 28, 2015 16:41:40 GMT -8
This whole discussion reminds me of an old song by Joe South: Games People Play. 'Til there covered up with flowers, in the black limousine |
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Post by marknycfan on May 30, 2015 9:21:36 GMT -8
Maybe if we were all manufacturers and didn't want our NEW product 'Walmarted' out at a discounted price it would make sense, regardless there's a whole lot of talk about this and nothing will come of it.
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Post by atsfan on May 30, 2015 11:44:45 GMT -8
Maybe if we were all manufacturers and didn't want our NEW product 'Walmarted' out at a discounted price it would make sense, regardless there's a whole lot of talk about this and nothing will come of it. Nothing as in no sales. I agree. |
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Post by marknycfan on May 31, 2015 3:06:53 GMT -8
Maybe if we were all manufacturers and didn't want our NEW product 'Walmarted' out at a discounted price it would make sense, regardless there's a whole lot of talk about this and nothing will come of it. Nothing as in no sales. I agree. So no one buys anything and Athearn shuts down, is that what we want? I bought my last Genesis locomotive from a vendor in Ohio, I'll buy my next one from him too at a slightly lower than MAP price that we'll discuss over the phone or via an email, it's really that simple |
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Post by atsfan on May 31, 2015 5:58:17 GMT -8
Nothing as in no sales. I agree. So no one buys anything and Athearn shuts down, is that what we want? I bought my last Genesis locomotive from a vendor in Ohio, I'll buy my next one from him too at a slightly lower than MAP price that we'll discuss over the phone or via an email, it's really that simple I didn't say that. Sales will drop and then MAP will be dropped. |
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