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Post by NS4122 on May 22, 2015 15:23:11 GMT -8
This item was in the Athearn News that was sent today:
Horizon Hobby MAP for Select Athearn Products
For the reasons stated in the Horizon Hobby MAP Policy below, effective May 22, 2015, Horizon Hobby will begin specifying MAP for select Athearn® products.
When Horizon issues a product announcement for new Athearn items, Horizon, at its choosing, may specify a MAP for certain products within that announcement. MAPs will generally be specified for all Athearn Genesis® products, but also for select Athearn Ready-to-Roll® and Athearn N-Scale products.
MAP will be set at 85% of the suggested retail price and will be in effect from the time of the announcement through 90 days beyond the first ship date of the product to retailers and consumers.
The selection of products with specified MAPs, the ratio of MAP to suggested retail price, and the duration of the MAP will be solely at Horizon’s discretion and subject to change. Items that were announced prior to the date of this notice do not have a MAP.
MAPs will be displayed on the announcements and on the products’ listing within FastServe®. Retailers will be able to check on FastServe whether a MAP is still in effect on an item.
Please see the policy below for information on Horizon’s definition of a MAP violation and procedures for any questions on this policy.
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Post by ambluco on May 22, 2015 15:28:16 GMT -8
The latest Kato GP35 was MAP on MB Klein site but I bought online elsewhere and paid much less.
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Post by canrailfan on May 22, 2015 17:06:26 GMT -8
I received two Athearn News emails today, about a half hour apart.
The first had the MAP announcement, the second did not. It appears that the MAP announcement is not supposed to be public, it may be intended for dealer's eyes only.
I fail to see what good a policy like this does for the hobby.
David
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Post by riogrande on May 22, 2015 18:45:23 GMT -8
The MAP policy sort of read like greek to me.
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Post by The Ferro Kid on May 22, 2015 19:13:45 GMT -8
(SNIP) I fail to see what good a policy like this does for the hobby. David I agree. If it is to help the dealer, it's about 15 years too late given how many shops have closed. If it's to help both the dealer and the manufacturer, it would seem that room for a 20 to 25 percent discount to the retail buyer has long been built into the pricing structure, at least where motive power and rolling stock are concerned. Could it be that the new factor is pressure from increased Chinese labor and materials costs versus manufacturer qualms about further retail price increases? At any rate, MAP isn't as easy to pull off as the textbooks may have it. The key word is "advertised," and that's where all the gameshow antics start ("Our price is so low, we can't publish it -- call!", or "Click to put item in cart, and see our LOW price!") And etc. Not to mention likely dealer confusion as to what the prevailing MAP price on a particular item even is, given the moving target described in the announcement. |
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Post by marknycfan on May 23, 2015 7:10:10 GMT -8
MAP has been around forever, nothing to get in a twist over, especially in this industry....
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Post by atsfan on May 23, 2015 7:28:12 GMT -8
MAP has been around forever, nothing to get in a twist over, especially in this industry.... How has it been around forever? Other than Kato, a minor player in the HO market? MAP is always a tactic used by companies as a fairly weak effort to maintain high prices in a shrinking market for their product. |
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Post by riogrande on May 23, 2015 7:45:46 GMT -8
MAP has been around forever, nothing to get in a twist over, especially in this industry.... I have only seen MAP on Kleins website in the last year or two and frankly didn't know what it meant, so well, I guess I wasn't in the loop on that one. So while some of you may be enjoying "inside knowledge", not all of us have it. Not that I'm really all that bothered about those kinds of things but at some point it may help to know. |
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Post by NS4122 on May 23, 2015 8:15:41 GMT -8
Con-Cor and MTH have been using MAP pricing too. How has it been around forever? Other than Kato, a minor player in the HO market? |
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Post by NS4122 on May 23, 2015 8:19:45 GMT -8
You did put it in the cart to see the actual price, right? The actual price was 99.99, roughly a 31% discount. The latest Kato GP35 was MAP on MB Klein site but I bought online elsewhere and paid much less. |
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Post by atsfan on May 23, 2015 10:21:48 GMT -8
New stuff is not due out for at least one year.
That is a long time
I know of no other hobby which operates like Model Railroading in terms of ordering, availability, or wait times. Not to mention quality issues.
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Post by atsfan on May 23, 2015 10:25:49 GMT -8
MAP has been around forever, nothing to get in a twist over, especially in this industry.... I have only seen MAP on Kleins website in the last year or two and frankly didn't know what it meant, so well, I guess I wasn't in the loop on that one. So while some of you may be enjoying "inside knowledge", not all of us have it. Not that I'm really all that bothered about those kinds of things but at some point it may help to know. We need a Hong Kong direct seller like exist to camera equipment. With pre orders only and minimal production MAP does not mean much anyway for trains. The easiest thing to do is not buy the product. |
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Post by bnsffan on May 23, 2015 13:26:09 GMT -8
Ok. I give up. What is MAP. It is an acronym for something.
Respectfully,
BNSF Fan
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Post by theengineshed on May 23, 2015 13:49:50 GMT -8
Ok. I give up. What is MAP. It is an acronym for something. Minimum Advertised Price. Not that you can't sell cheaper, you just can't advertise below the MAP. That's why at Klein's you have to put it in your cart to see the actual not MAP price. |
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Post by bnsffan on May 23, 2015 14:05:15 GMT -8
Interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if MAP is illegal.
Respectfully,
BNSF FAN
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Post by The Ferro Kid on May 23, 2015 15:13:33 GMT -8
Interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if MAP is illegal. Respectfully, BNSF FAN Courts have ruled it to be legal. Probably because, strictly speaking, it does not regulate price. Which means it boils down to being more of an intimidation of the dealer than anything. Hence the silliness of it all, really. Not sure how the courts get around the First Amendment aspect -- perhaps because the restriction on the dealer's advertising is a contractual matter as between the dealer and the manufacturer. The bottom line for the consumer who is comparison shopping is to put the item in the dealer's cart. Then check the homepage and/or do an Internet search for any coupons or special offers, such as Free Shipping. |
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Post by bnsf971 on May 23, 2015 16:35:02 GMT -8
Auto manufacturers have been using MAP for decades.
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Post by atsfan on May 23, 2015 17:32:33 GMT -8
Interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if MAP is illegal. Respectfully, BNSF FAN It may or may not be illegal But it is ineffective and a desperate measure |
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Post by marknycfan on May 23, 2015 17:33:05 GMT -8
Okay, I'll spell it out clearer for those who wish to split hairs, MAP (Minimum Advertised Price) has existed in the business world for years, it is NOT illegal and I as a one time internet dealer was denied access to a certain product line not in the model railroad industry do to an alleged violation of MAP. Bose speakers comes to mind as does Sony electronics, now I am talking more than a few years ago when people bought TV's, vcr's and separate component stereo equipment.
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Post by ambluco on May 23, 2015 17:35:49 GMT -8
Yep, and I still paid less. You did put it in the cart to see the actual price, right? The actual price was 99.99, roughly a 31% discount. The latest Kato GP35 was MAP on MB Klein site but I bought online elsewhere and paid much less. |
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Post by atsfan on May 23, 2015 17:42:19 GMT -8
Yep, and I still paid less. You did put it in the cart to see the actual price, right? The actual price was 99.99, roughly a 31% discount. We're for less than $99? Thanks |
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Post by atsfan on May 23, 2015 17:44:15 GMT -8
Okay, I'll spell it out clearer for those who wish to split hairs, MAP (Minimum Advertised Price) has existed in the business world for years, it is NOT illegal and I as a one time internet dealer was denied access to a certain product line not in the model railroad industry do to an alleged violation of MAP. Bose speakers comes to mind as does Sony electronics, now I am talking more than a few years ago when people bought TV's, vcr's and separate component stereo equipment. And Sony is fading as a result They have exiting large markets they formally were strong in MAP is not better than a bigger sand castle at the low tide mark A sign of fear and weakness |
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Post by marknycfan on May 23, 2015 18:06:18 GMT -8
All consumer electronic sales are down...who buys anything but TV's anymore, the market faded on the other products a while ago. Regardless MAP isn't some sort of double secret probation thing, I don't understand why anyone would worry about it.
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Post by The Ferro Kid on May 23, 2015 20:29:34 GMT -8
(SNIP) Regardless MAP isn't some sort of double secret probation thing, I don't understand why anyone would worry about it. Well, granted it isn't cause to load a shotgun and keep it on the nightstand, but it is of interest/amusement to those of us who've for decades watched and patronized an industry that has some very idiosyncratic economics. |
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Post by ambluco on May 24, 2015 2:59:24 GMT -8
TTH - Price is $101 but at TTH, if their discounted price when you pre-order ends up less that what they advertise at, you pay what you pre-ordered at. So mine ended up less than $99. If I wanted another, I'd have to pay the $101.
In reverse you have to watch this too. If a pre-order is advertised as $150 and when it's released finally, their price is $130, you have to email them usually and get a refund. This has happened with a few Genesis engines. So the early pre-order price is what goes through, no matter the final price. I've saved money several times with this. Same thing happened with the Athearn SW1500. Paid less than the people who waited.
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Post by Brakie on May 24, 2015 3:05:59 GMT -8
MAP pricing been around for quite some time and finally made into the various hobbies.
Good,bad or just down right ugly will depend on who you ask. It could be a late booster shot for LHS that evens the playing field-less discount plus shipping= near LHS prices. I've already seen some street prices plus shipping wasn't all that much cheaper then the same two cars at a LHS.
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Post by mlehman on May 24, 2015 12:45:42 GMT -8
Pricing always gets people's knickers in a twist because most people like to think their buying decisions are based on getting the lowest possible price. Otherwise, they think they've been ripped off for the difference. Other than Santa Claus being a myth (a jolly, agreeable, myth but still a myth), this is one of the hardest childhood fantasies to let go of. Want it cheapest? Then wait until it's on closeout. Might not get it that way? Then you enter into a willing transaction with some vendor short (long?) of that, who is in turn trying to maximize their profit.
Yes, this can be a substantial chunk on a pricey engine, but realistically it's a couple of dollars on most items we buy. While I'm poor and broke mostly, frankly I have a lot of other things in life to worry about. MAP ain't one of them.
It does make it a little more work for the consumer, who can't just Google up the lowest price and may have to do some legwork/fingerwork to find the lowest actual price. This is probably good for stores that have decent websites, but negative for those that don't. The consumer has to at least pass through and take a look at what's on display, which they wouldn't do with a simple search. Google also helps with enforcement of a MAP policy for obvious reasons -- it won't be good if it turns up a MAP violation.
Correct, MAP is NOT illegal. Representations otherwise are at best misguided, if perhaps heartfelt. The same is true re the First Amendment, which generally applies to government actions and only some rather specific interactions between private parties, who are mostly exempt from such requirements.
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Post by Brakie on May 24, 2015 15:11:56 GMT -8
This is probably good for stores that have decent websites, but negative for those that don't.
==================================================================================================
Correct..The Jurassic age of doing hobby shop business is a sure way to closed your doors permanently. A nice web page can and will draw customers even if the discount isn't the best..
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Post by atsfan on May 24, 2015 18:32:20 GMT -8
This is probably good for stores that have decent websites, but negative for those that don't. ================================================================================================== Correct..The Jurassic age of doing hobby shop business is a sure way to closed your doors permanently. A nice web page can and will draw customers even if the discount isn't the best.. Many train stores have lousy websites Some, none at all ! |
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Post by chessie77 on May 24, 2015 19:52:42 GMT -8
I used to own a Game Shop and one of our biggest sellers were products from Games Workshop. The produced Warhammer 40K, a miniature game and made lots of miniatures for it. Back in the early 2000s they quit doing business with distributers and sold directly to hobby shops. We got a 40% discount from them. Then they started a policy that stated you could have sales on their products but you couldn't have everything on sale all the time. they enforced this by shopping all the stores they sold to. If they found that your store was discounting their products all the time and not just running occasional sales, they would cut you off. Their products were about one third of our business. One of their representatives came into our store and after looking around and checking us out actually introduced himself to us and commented that we had the largest selection of their products he had seen. They even have a chain of their own stores and we had more than they did. He was impressed, but, if we had had discounts on all of their products, they would have stopped selling to us. Like I said this was in the early 2000s, I don't know if that policy is still in effect or not. The thing is for us, we didn't have to discount their product for it to sell. If a new kit or miniatures came out the customers would come in and buy at full retail and not bat a eye. Which was a big difference from when I ran a train shop. The war gamers just wanted the products as soon as they were available. They never waited for items to go on sale. They would travel around and go from store to store until they found what they wanted. That's why we kept our store heavily stocked and had orders coming in twice a week.
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