"Divided " Passenger Cars for Jim Crow States.

[atsfan]

Jul 6, 2015 15:54:07 GMT -8 mlehman said:

I suspect any lack of restrooms occurred only very late in the game. Most of the laws requiring segregation also required putatively equal facilities. That's in line with the watchwords of the last defenders of legal segregation that it was "separate, but equal," which was specifically the concept overturned by Brown vs Board in 1954. And it was also a matter of public health. The RR would be breaking other laws if it didn't provide a restroom.

But with the onset of "massive resistance" as a tactic of the deadender segregationists, it's possible "Closed" signs went up on locked bathrooms simply out of spite. These may not have even been done as a management order, but by the initiative of individual crew members seeking to make life miserable...to what end other than pure hostility is hard to say.

So now you are condemning train crews again, even though you have zero knowledge that anything happened, when, where, or why.
The size of the groups of people you routinely insult, slander, and trash is staggering.

[mlehman]

Jul 6, 2015 10:56:41 GMT -8 Spikre said:

SNIP
since the roughly 900 miles of Road operated by KCS was west
of the Mississippi,one of those states must have been Appealing
the Supreme Court Decision rather strongly.
this does need more research.
Spikre

Spikre,
It probably bears repeating...
There are NO appeals to a Supreme Court decision. They're at the top of the legal food chain. What they say goes is the law of the land without dispute. They're the court of last resort.

Now, there may be those who defy, ignore, or neglect to obey a SCOTUS decision, but they will never appeal a decision. There is no higher court that could handle such an appeal.

Of course, the aggrieved party could get legislators to take another tack and see if it survives legal review.

Or they could try to amend the Constitution, no easy task.

Other than that, when SCOTUS decides, you obey, for better or worse.

[atsfan]

Jul 6, 2015 19:58:27 GMT -8 mlehman said:

Jul 6, 2015 10:56:41 GMT -8 Spikre said:

SNIP
since the roughly 900 miles of Road operated by KCS was west
of the Mississippi,one of those states must have been Appealing
the Supreme Court Decision rather strongly.
this does need more research.
Spikre

Spikre,
It probably bears repeating...
There are NO appeals to a Supreme Court decision. They're at the top of the legal food chain. What they say goes is the law of the land without dispute. They're the court of last resort.

Now, there may be those who defy, ignore, or neglect to obey a SCOTUS decision, but they will never appeal a decision. There is no higher court that could handle such an appeal.

Of course, the aggrieved party could get legislators to take another tack and see if it survives legal review.

Or they could try to amend the Constitution, no easy task.

Other than that, when SCOTUS decides, you obey, for better or worse.[/]

Tell that to the White House.

[Spikre]

??
Mike,
believe the KCS was run by the Deramus administration.
they had been running the KCS since the 30s at least.
so maybe they were just Senile by 1956 ?
edit-- William Deramus Jr.,1941-1961,so Senality is a possibility.
Thanks Christian !
Spikre

[Christian]

Jul 7, 2015 14:23:47 GMT -8 Spikre said:

believe the KCS was run by the Doremus administration.
they had been running the KCS since the 30s at least.
so maybe they were just Senile by 1956 ?

William N. Deramus, Jr. (1941–1961)
William N. Deramus III (1961–1973)
Thomas S. Carter (1973–1986)
William N. Deramus IV (1986–1990)


I've read no evidence of particular institutional racism with KCS. Just a reflection of the times. The passenger trains ran through states that required separate but equal accommodations. As did many other railways. Enforcement in most/all states was left to the railways, mainly the conductor. When you read lives of traveling musicians, ball players and other public performers you read about all this stuff, north and south, east and west. And how erratic it was all applied. As well as when money talked and when it didn't. There were underground information networks. (My hometown - central Illinois - Shell gas station had above the counter maps and below the counter maps in the late 50's.) WWII pressures in travel and accommodations were really the beginning of an end. The nation needed everybody. After the war it was hard to roll things back - particularly the new attitudes.

[mlehman]

Spikre,
Found a little more on the divider in the nee-ex-C&O coaches the Rio Grande purchased. The Rio Grande's had "a partition with a flower design etched in glass in the center of the car" to break up the "tunnel effect" of coaches. So very similar to the assertion this was done so they wouldn't look like buses. (from Colo Rail Annual #9, page 71.)

Can't say that this was how the C&O originally intended to set up the bulkhead or not. I suspect that they were all made with the flower etched glass partitions, though, and the Grande just took what C&O had a place in line for when it bought the rights to it prior to delivery. But a glass partition just doesn't seem to go with the division implied by Jim Crow laws, so if the C&O's did also have the glass, it probably wasn't to do with Jim Crow.

[Spikre]

lets Hi-Lite some true Divided Liteweight cars as run by Rock Island.
these cars had Doors at both ends of the cars,the correct people could
only enter the door at the end of the car for them.
have read that originally there was a {wall} in the center of the car,but
not sure if that is actually correct or not ?
so how do we write these cars off in a politically correct description ?
it really doesn't seem like there is one.
Edit-- 6 of 18 Rock Island cars had "Movable Dividers" that effectively
closed off the sides of the cars when/as needed.
would guess that in the 12 cars with out Dividers the Conductors
did the Crowd Control ?
Spikre

ps- Christian,thanks for the Deramus spelling and years.
Doremus is a road or area in Newark NJ,close though !!

[mlehman]

Jul 8, 2015 8:19:22 GMT -8 Spikre said:

SNIP
have read that originally there was a wall in the center of the car,but
not sure if that is actually correct or not ?
so how do we write these cars off in a politically correct description ?
it really doesn't seem like there is one.
SNIP

Can't help you with politically correct.
You either know or it doesn't matter with most people. Best to speak plainly and with thought that appreciates the experiences of all who are part of your audience.

For historians, the proper term would be that it's a "Jim Crow" railroad car. The term "Jim Crow" is not generally considered derogatory. Instead, it's descriptive of a practice and an era that institutionalized racial subjugation through law against African-Americans in the period after Reconstruction fell apart in the South. Such laws were often thought of as being confined to the South, but that's far from the case. There's a book called "Sundown Towns" (IIRC, and I think by a guy named Frank) that documents how widespread legal and other de facto discrimination was widely practiced in the United States. The sources I cited earlier demonstrate that.

In certain regions, such laws eventually were not confined to African-Americans, but included others seen as non-white. But "Jim Crow" generally refers specifically to the laws connected with keeping former slaves and their descendants within the bounds the white power structure deemed acceptable. Once passed (and 1890 is a rough date for when they were widely in effect at the local level), such laws generally persisted until ended by the courts in the mid-20th century, although many Northern states did take action on their own to limit or repeal them prior to the civil rights confrontation of the 50s and 60s.

[Spikre]

Mike,
sometimes we just have to call a Spade a Spade,
or a Crow a Crow.
fact- KCS ran thru Jim Crow States.
Fact- KCS ordered what had to be the last Jim Crow
passenger cars in the U.S. in 1956.
Fact- the big C&O Passenger car order of 1946/47 had
not only Jim Crow Coaches in it,but also rare
lightweight Jim Crow Diners,but cut from 10 to
2,they were what they were.
Fact- All of this was ignored in Mainline Modeler with
the articles on the above cars.
and there are still more articles here to find and
read.
Spikre

[mlehman]

I still wanna know if those dividers were glass?

[Spikre]

Mike,
the KCS cars had open grid Stainless Steel trelacis's,this made the
cars look open and may have been a sneaky way around Federal regulations.
some Rock Island Cars had Movable Divders that closed off the sides of the
cars when in use.more on this to come later.
Spikre

[mlehman]

Jul 11, 2015 8:17:33 GMT -8 Spikre said:

Mike,
the KCS cars had open grid Stainless Steel trelacis's,this made the
cars look open and may have been a sneaky way around Federal regulations.
SNIP

OK, now you're getting somewhere, except I think it was a sneaky way to subvert the state Jim Crow laws. The feds had nothing to do with those.

Which is why I'm curious about whether the C&O cars that were kept were also equipped with the glass partitions found on the cars that went to the Rio Grande. Glass partitions, along with the bathroom arrangement, may have met the letter of the Jim Crow laws, but the implementation suggests the RRs were either actively trying to subvert their intent and/or preparing for the day when those laws would soon be gone.

That suggests a rather different interpretation of what the meaning of these design features were.

[Spikre]

Mike,
have only found the C&O Diner article so far.
those cars were designed artfully to be divided.
will see what turns up later as there should be
more in the C&O series here.
think Your missing that I'm more upset with Bob
Hundman for Ignoring the Obvious in these 2 articles
so far.
the Journal Rock Island article calls the car "Jim Crow"
cars with no problems.
Spikre

[Spikre]

Rail Model Journal,July 007,pages 44-48.
" Pullman Corregated Coachfrom Palace Car Company's Kit".
Mark Malmar author,and owner of the Palace Car Company.
these were Divided Cars for "Jim Crow" service.
Rock Island bought 2 cars from Pullman during 1940,cars
were numbered 350-351.
in 1947 Pullman delivered 16 more cars of a similar floor plan,
#-323-338.
cars #-350-351,235,326,327 had movable Dividers that were moved
as Passenger Counts increased,or decreased.
the rest of the 1947 cars were used as needed in Regular Train Service,
or "Jim Crow" service.
the auther didn't think that any of these cars were ever used on the
"Golden State" or pictures havnt turned up to show that yet.
all 18 cars had 2 Ladies Rooms and 2 Mens Rooms,one each at different
ends of the cars.
the cars were built with Fluted siding,but it was removed later,and
replaced with flat Stainless Steel panels.
info on the cars was taken from "the Official Pullman-Standard Library,
Volume 8- Rock Island,by W.David Randall and William G. Anderson.
check page 144 for the info on cars #325 Fort Worth,326 Dallas,327 Houston.
about half of the cars sold to NJDOT during 1968,Retired during 1974.
have never seen,or seen pics of these cars on EL lines,PC had a large Pool
of cars they could use,so that only leaves CNJ for them to have run on.
at that time NJDOT Contracted with EL,PC,and CNJ to run their trains on lines
owned by them mostly.
NY&LB and CNJ to Newark Station after the Aldene Plan being exceptions.
but no "Jim Crow" service in NJ.
Spikre

all 16 1947 cars were named for Cities the Rock served.

[chessie77]

The C&O Pullman coaches were designed so that there wasn't a bowling alley effect like standard coaches. The middle of the coaches had a small aisle that went around a partition. These cars were designed to be used system wide, from Michigan to Virginia. These cars were ordered in 1946. The divided diners were based on the diners ordered by the Pere Marquette for service between Chicago and Michigan. They were to go on secondary trains and the twin unit diners were to be used on the mainline trains. The Budd order which was placed before 1946 were the only cars designed for segregation, and the only cars were the kitchen dorms that had a lunch counter at the end opposite where the dining car would be coupled. The Chessie had one coach (Same as all the other Chessie coaches) at the front of the train to conform to the Jim Crow laws at the time. You had a coach behind the Turbine, then the kitchen dorm, dining car, coach, dome sleeper ( not really ever to be used as a sleeper) more coaches and then the Dome coach observation. Also, the kitchen in the middle of the dining car was also used on the Amfleet cars by Amtrak.

[Spikre]

since the "Chessie" never ran as planned,it is Moot.
C&O and PM ordered separately before the Merger.
since both were AMC members they knew what each
was up to,but had not much say in their affairs.
the merger changed that.
Erie was still sort of an AMC member even though
they were Independent after the 1939 Bankruptcy.
Spikre

[chessie77]

The PM was owned by the C&O when the Pere Marquette cars were ordered. The official merger took place June 6, 1947.

[Spikre]

both C&O and PM were owned by the Allegheney Corp,as was NKP.
both the C&O Chessie cars and the "Pere Marquettes" were ordered
sometime before the merger.
C&O did control the roads that Allegheney owned,or had Stock control
in,but let the roads run their own affairs.
at least that was what they said when they let Erie enter Bankruptcy.
or when R.R.Young gave away all the NKP Stock to the Allegheney Directors
at the 1947 Board Meeting.
Spikre

[edwardsutorik]

I made a mistake; and, as a consequence, I owe Spikre a semi-apology.

When he started this topic, he referenced an article in Mainline Modeler about a KCS passenger car. I mistakenly assumed it was the prototype for the Rivarossi lightweight coach. And responded accordingly. Yesterday I dug out the article and found it was about a different car. And that divided car certainly featured four bathrooms. And that qualifies with near certainty as a Jim Crow coach.

The "semi-ness" of the apology is that it is for making an incorrect assumption about the subject car, but I am not convinced that Hundmann should have noted the "special usage" of the subject car. It would have been better if he had, as it would have explained the unusual bathroom generosity.

So. I apologize, Spikre.

As to the Rivarossi prototype, it was also a divided coach. I don't have plans for these cars available, but photos of each side look to me to indicate only two bathrooms In Randall's "Streamliner Cars, Volume 1", the car is described as "66-seat Divided Coach, 8-seat Smoker". So I believe these cars were not Jim Crow cars.

Thumbing through a diagram book of SP&S passenger cars, I find many divided coaches. They are frequently described as "smokers". But they ARE divided. Also of interest is the floor plan for SP&S 307-308. These cars are former M-K-T 1200-1201. They were built as 56-seat coaches with partitions. And they had THREE bathrooms, at least, in SP&S days. So........



Ed

[mlehman]

Spikre often does have a bone when he's chewing. Otherwise, it's hard on the furniture.

Yes, this is all very good and useful info. I think it shows the RRs were already looking past the end of Jim Crow, not wanting to be stuck with too many extra bathrooms (which do get expensive), etc by very early in the postwar period, just when lots of orders went out to fill the nations passenger car stock after its hard use during the war.

A moveable partition suggests you could take the matter down to the last few seats, maybe even none depending on how configured, or essentially Zero Jim Crow. That was an implicit option in ordering them that way. And then no actual evidence of them in service. And the cite of where what I only vaguely recalled about the doubled-up bathrooms is a much appreciated addition to this thread.

chessie77 and Ed's comments point out a couple of other things. I don't think the C&O coaches with the glass partitions could be considered smokers, as that usually implies a door to "segregate" those folks from fresh air-loving ones. I don't recall seeing any evidence of the partition being equipped with a door. I can't put my finger on the floorplan I recall of one of the Rio Grande's coaches right now, but I also recall the curving passage the partition provided was wide and inviting, rather than being simply a restrictive access. In this sense again, if there ever was an intent to use them for Jim Crow, that had obviously been subverted by design. Yes, this paints a different picture about the role of RRs that's a lot more gray area than black or white, good guy or bad.

Now why a divider if not mostly/partly/a little Jim Crow? We've already mentioned the aesthetic desire to avoid the tube effect people perceived in coaches. But on branch lines, sometimes you don't need a whole car simply because you don't want people so spread out if you're a conductor taking tickets, etc. A simple chain bars access if that's the only or an end car that people need not walk through. The divider made that sort of practice more clearcut, but I'm no expert on the C&O, just relating what I've seen done in my experience at other instance.

[edwardsutorik]

Well, back to THREE bathrooms in a coach (see my post just above).

I'm a looking at a plan for the GN's 48 seat coaches for the second Empire Builder (1951). Three bathrooms. Two smaller ones for women, and one larger (with a couch) for men.


Ed

[mlehman]

Ed,
Was referring to the RI coaches that Spikre cited from RMJ...unless the ones he's talking about are the same ones you were...I may have gotten confused on that point, as I'm not one to sort through who ordered what with passenger cars unless it's the Rio Grande stuff, which I'm able to at least access most of the info here in my library.

[Spikre]

Ed,
large Mens room waiting areas were generally "Smoking Areas".
even if the train had Lounges and Bar areas.
the comfi chairs or couches was the tip off,along with plenty
of ash trays.
Mike,
the Rock Island cars had Doors at both ends of the cars,rare
with Light Wieght cars.
would guess that the Conductors didn't like moving the Dividers
around every time passengers got on or off the cars.
unless maybe some had a "Napolean" Complex ?
the Rock Island cars were used on Long distance,locals and commuter
trains depending on where on the System they were at the time.
Mainline:
still think it was Bob Hundmann's job to provide the Full Info
on cars that appeared in Mainline Articles.
Spikre

[mlehman]

Jul 13, 2015 7:54:44 GMT -8 Spikre said:

SNIP
Mike,
the Rock Island cars had Doors at both ends of the cars,rare
with Light Wieght cars.
would guess that the Conductors didn't like moving the Dividers
around every time passengers got on or off the cars.
unless maybe some had a "Napolean" Complex ?
the Rock Island cars were used on Long distance,locals and commuter
trains depending on where on the System they were at the time.
Mainline:
still think it was Bob Hundmann's job to provide the Full Info
on cars that appeared in Mainline Articles.
Spikre

Spikre,
Not having seen said dividers, but having seen similar, I suspect moving the divider wasn't intended to be done in the middle of a run. Too many complications for that, starting with where do you put people who are already seated? My guess is that the intent was to set the partition in accord with local demand, but generally leave 'em alone unless traffic or a change in use warranted movement of the divider.

Harsh on Hundman? Well, it's a little late to spank him now over MM. But when he was publishing MM, he had a pretty full plate. Could've been in the article, then dropped for space reason, a choice we might question, but which it's hard to say without talking with him. Editors make decisions for lots of reasons, so I wouldn't jump to any conclusions. And was there a corrective letter printed perhaps? Do we expect editors to be perfect and perfectly knowledgeable? Having been a low-level editor at several points, I can tell you that's far from the case...and it's always the case if you think you "coulda done it better" then why not?

[Great-Northern-Willmar Div]

Jul 13, 2015 7:54:44 GMT -8 Spikre said:

the Rock Island cars were used on Long distance,locals and commuter
trains depending on where on the System they were at the time.

Spikre

Rock Island never used any mainline passenger equipment on commuter trains, other than the Aerotrain after it was removed from intercity service.

Rock Island had five types of cars used in Chicago commuter service.

1920's "Al Capone" cars

www.mtmuseum.org/roster.php?page=crip2608

1950's dual center vestibule lightweight coaches built by Pullman and hated by everyone


www.ozarkmountainrailcar.com/detail.asp?id=1369&n=Rock-Island-Commuter-Coach-2702


Aerotrain - after it had more or less ran its course as a longer distance intercity entity and hated by everyone in commuter service.

1960's Pullman built slab side bi-level's both coaches and cab cars since retired by RTA/Metra


1960's Budd built stainless steel bi-levels both coaches and cab cars - still in service with Metra

[Spikre]

Jim,
the article states:
" the cars could be found in almost any Rock Island train by 1950.
the one possible exception being the Golden State".
so am going by what the author states here.
and while they may not have been used regularly in commute service,
they may have showed up now and then.
especially if there was a major passenger shop in the Chicago
commuter zone.
but we could just change "Commuter" to "Local" passenger trains.
but since at least 8 of the cars were in dedicated "Jim Crow" service
in the 40s thru the early 60s,that is what really matters here.
Spikre

[mlehman]

Jul 13, 2015 19:17:57 GMT -8 Spikre said:

SNIP....since at least 8 of the cars were in dedicated "Jim Crow" service
in the 40s thru the early 60s,that is what really matters here.
Spikre

So where exactly were all these Rock Island Jim Crow runs located? It didn't exactly pass through areas best known as difficult for civil rights, although as we discussed these were certainly not limited to the South.

[Christian]

Jul 13, 2015 21:22:01 GMT -8 mlehman said:

Jul 13, 2015 19:17:57 GMT -8 Spikre said:

SNIP....since at least 8 of the cars were in dedicated "Jim Crow" service
in the 40s thru the early 60s,that is what really matters here.
Spikre

So where exactly were all these Rock Island Jim Crow runs located? It didn't exactly pass through areas best known as difficult for civil rights, although as we discussed these were certainly not limited to the South.

Check out a route map. If you remove Iowa and Colorado lines, the remainder of the Rock Island looks very much like Missouri Pacific, Cotton Belt, KATY and KCS. Probably didn't much help the bottom line.

[mlehman]

Yeah, got to poking around and was reminded about all the RI in TX, which is likely the greatest part of this. Then there was Oklahoma, which apparently missed out on the first wave of Jim Crow, maybe because of its rather late statehood, but which enacted Jim Crow in a 1933 law. This led to some protests and arrests. And it would've resulted in some new demand for passenger equipment to maintain this renewed government-required devotion to American-style apartheid.

Still curious what runs might have received new equipment for Jim Crow service, although it looks like there was a limit to that in that the postwar legal context quickly made the point moot. The Rock could've just taken any old coaches they had on hand and designated them for this service, but instead at least made a stab at "equal" with new cars even if "separate" was the watchword (soon overturned).

[Spikre]

Mike,
outside of the "Choctaw Rocket",and "Zypher Rocket" am
not well versed in Rock Island passenger service.
know that Rock Island didn't have the funds to join
Amtrak,and that's about the extent of things Passenger
here.
Spikre