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Post by mlehman on Jul 14, 2015 11:12:54 GMT -8
Spikre, Pretty sure Amtrak had no Jim Crow service to inherit.  |
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Jul 14, 2015 15:32:55 GMT -8
 Jim, the article states: " the cars could be found in almost any Rock Island train by 1950. the one possible exception being the Golden State". so am going by what the author states here. and while they may not have been used regularly in commute service, they may have showed up now and then. especially if there was a major passenger shop in the Chicago commuter zone. but we could just change "Commuter" to "Local" passenger trains. but since at least 8 of the cars were in dedicated "Jim Crow" service in the 40s thru the early 60s,that is what really matters here. Spikre  The statement should say the cars could appear in any Rock Island train EXCEPT Chicago commuter trains. All Chicago commuter trains took power for lights from either the locomotive or power car in a primitive form of HEP or used Waukesha Enginators. The Rock Island center vestibule commuter cars had Waukesha Ice Air Conditioners and Enginators. The long distance cars on the Rock Island had either a Spicer drive or belt driven DC generators. Chicago commuter service has far too many stops and is too slow for these forms of electrical generation to operate. The cars would be operating nearly entirely on their Edison cell batteries and that isn't possible. Plus, Rock Island had large numbers of the Al Capone cars which seated in the neighborhood of 100 passengers. That is a lot more than one of these divided coaches. Also, the divided coaches had direct discharge bathrooms. AKA when you flushed the "stuff" hit the tracks. The Al Capone cars did not have restroom facilities, a few of the 2700 series center vestibule cars did have restroom facilities and their waste was contained just like all the bi-levels. I'm a Chicagoan and have studied Chicago commuter operations for decades. Hence why I build all those Chicago commuter units. The Rock Island may have been dirt poor but it didn't mix any of the intercity cars into its commuter trains for it had its commuter equipment well covered. Commuter service on the Rock Island, even pre-Regional Transportation Authority, was fairly reliable, even the track in the suburban district (Chicago-Joliet) was better than the rest of the system. |
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Post by Spikre on Jul 17, 2015 9:27:01 GMT -8
 Jim, contact the author and chew him out. am really only interested in the Jim Crow use of these 18 cars. don't even care what NJDOT did with the ones they got after 1968,as CNJ was never ridden. and the cars must have been in really bad shape as NJDOT retired them by 1974. while the cars procured from BN ran into the late 70s,or even the early 80s. Spikre
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Post by Spikre on Jul 18, 2015 8:58:15 GMT -8
Ed, notice something ODD in the KCS Plans ? even though the car is a Divided "Jim Crow" car the seat sections Face Each Other,,,,,what is that about ? the Womens Rooms have Doors,the Mens Rooms have Curtains, also strange. what are the half round things by the restroom doors,Water Bottles? even though the water tank is 300 Gallons,no where does it say "Potable or Drinking Water". Mike, the dividers are described as Stainless Steel Grill Work,made from what looks like 1" square Tubing. very easy to remove if the cars are rebuilt for "Normal" use. same with the seats,very easy to rotate one section of seats,and remove the restrooms from one end of the cars. maybe KCS wasn't as Senile as thought earlier ? Spikre
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Post by mlehman on Jul 18, 2015 12:58:00 GMT -8
Open grill work, with seats in each section facing each other? Like the use of glass in the Rio Grande cars, assuming _that_ had anything to do with Jim Crow, this sounds like an active attempt by the RR to subvert the meaning of the Jim Crow laws, rather than blindly accept them.
I'm still wondering about reports of these cars in actual use for Jim Crow runs. Nothing really definitive turn up?
Strange half round things in the men's room? Probably urinals.
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Post by Spikre on Jul 18, 2015 13:16:36 GMT -8
 Mike, those 'Half Round things are by the curtains in the Mens Riooms. the "Hopper" in RR lingo is in a separate room with a door. so its either a Water Fountian,or a Water Bottle. there are 2 "Full Round" things that seem to be sinks along the outside walls on either sides of the window. the "Half Round" things are along the Isle walls. the Ladies Room also looks to have a Desk or Table in it,maybe a "Vanity" thing for applying make up ? Mens room looks to have 2 seats,but no Table,Womens room only has a seat at the table. maybe Ed can read these plans better than this ? Spikre 
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Jul 18, 2015 17:04:42 GMT -8
 was looking thru a back Issue of Mainline when this Term was used to describe a KCS Passenger car. now the Rail Industry may have used the Term when describing recently ordered cars in the 40s and 50s,maybe even earlier,not sure,but am planning on doing more research on this topic. am really surprised that Hundman gave a number of pages to the KCS car but never once mentioned that KCS ran thru "Jim Crow" states. do think its about time that this dirty secret of Passenger trains gets the Exposure that It deserves. what was odd that Roads that didn't run in the Jim Crow states didn't rebuild the interiors of the cars they bought that were "Divided". why was that ? didn't seem like it would take too much effort to remove the dividers in Coaches at least. the Divided Diners wouldn't be worth the effort,that is understandable. am really Disapointed by Bob Hundman not exposing this practice for what it really was. Spikre  What car numbers were done in MM? ACF Lot 2979 were 2 cars number 239 - Kansas City and 240 Texarkana were 62-seat divided coaches. Ordered January 1946 and delivered in January 1949. The cars were divided by an aluminum ornamental grille with a door in the aisle. There was a partial full wall which extended about head high and then you had the grille. This provided a complete eye block from each section being able to make eye contact when seated. Second the seats up against the partition were with their backs to the partition. This meant the passengers in these seats looked at the passengers in their section and with the partial full partition between the sections it was hard to really look in at the other section. Plus, in Jim Crow country people both black and white did not make much contact as it could be considered against the law. The colored section of the ACF built cars seated 22 and had the conductors compartment. The restroom's were a far cry from the lounge and restroom facilities in the white section. In the colored section the restroom for the men consisted of a sink, mirror and toilet. The women had a folding seat along with the necessary equipment. The men's room was even small by the G.E. electric water cooler which took up space in the room. In the white section, the seating was for 40 passengers. The men's room in the white section was exactly like that in the colored section with a G.E. water cooler taking up a chunk of space. The white women's lounge and restroom was spacious. The women had two wash basins, a vanity with chair, three seat couch and of course a hopper. |
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Post by Spikre on Jul 18, 2015 19:10:10 GMT -8
Jim, KCS 1956 Divided Coach, pages 40-45,Mainline Modeler, January 2003, Dr. Nick Muff, Author. this covers 6 Coaches built by ACF,#-245-250,the cars were rebuilt and renumbered during 1964-65. the "Divider" is completely open and No Door between the sections. the Sections weirdly Face Each Other. no ACF Lot number for the cars is given. again,contact Dr Nick Muff for more info if not enuff was presented in this thread. it is possible that the 64/65 rebuild turned them into Regular Coaches,but that info isn't given. no where in Mainline are the cars called "Jim Crow Coaches",but it is obvious they were as built. Spikre
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Jul 19, 2015 5:50:21 GMT -8
Ed, notice something ODD in the KCS Plans ? even though the car is a Divided "Jim Crow" car the seat sections Face Each Other,,,,,what is that about ? the Womens Rooms have Doors,the Mens Rooms have Curtains, also strange. what are the half round things by the restroom doors,Water Bottles? even though the water tank is 300 Gallons,no where does it say "Potable or Drinking Water". Mike, the dividers are described as Stainless Steel Grill Work,made from what looks like 1" square Tubing. very easy to remove if the cars are rebuilt for "Normal" use. same with the seats,very easy to rotate one section of seats,and remove the restrooms from one end of the cars. maybe KCS wasn't as Senile as thought earlier ? Spikre The half round "things" are dental bowls. Small sinks for passengers to use when brushing teeth. According to the ACF drawings the divider is described as a low partition with ornamental grille. The 300 gallon water tank is drinking water. The tank feeds the wash basins, dental bowls, hoppers and water coolers. ACF Lot 04-4576 consisted of six cars and was ordered on June 1955. Delivery took place in June 1956. All cars were sold to the Long Island Railroad in 1969. All were scrapped, except 246, which was sold to the Smokey Hill Railroad Society in Kansas City. |
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Post by mlehman on Jul 19, 2015 5:55:55 GMT -8
Glad to now know that if I was Time Machined back to the 50s I shouldn't confuse a urinal with a dental bowl  I wonder if the seating (except maybe at the bulkhead) is reversible and the drawings are showing that by facing the seats different ways to illustrate? Interesting that there may be two different bulkhead styles. Were these cars air conditioned? That could also partially account for the ventilated partitions. |
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Jul 19, 2015 6:04:01 GMT -8
Why Mainline Modeler did not mention Jim Crow could be that they just didn't want bring up the subject of race. ACF referred to the cars as "divided" in the lot information. In the W. David Randall book The Passenger Car Library, Volume Three, Western Railroads, Randall does write that the "divided" KCS coaches were to comply with Jim Crow laws.
Race and race relations is in the United States of America is still a very touch subject and as model railroaders we tend to live in a utopian world with our models. How many south and southeastern modelers who model in the 1960's and before have two sided stations for "white" and "colored"? How many in their little towns have a cafe with "white only" in the window? Our trains are a means to leave behind the harsh world and enter a fantasy world. My beloved Great Northern isn't coming back in the real world, but I can still run toy train Empire Builders like it was 1955.
Should Mainline Modeler come out and said the "divided" coaches were specifically to comply with Jim Crow laws? Maybe, but the author and editor may have also been of the opinion, whether right or wrong, that the majority of the readers would know that these cars were "divided" for a very black and white reason.
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Jul 19, 2015 6:08:48 GMT -8
Glad to now know that if I was Time Machined back to the 50s I shouldn't confuse a urinal with a dental bowl I wonder if the seating (except maybe at the bulkhead) is reversible and the drawings are showing that by facing the seats different ways to illustrate? Interesting that there may be two different bulkhead styles. Were these cars air conditioned? That could also partially account for the ventilated partitions. Seating is fixed and without unbolting the seat from floor its not changing direction. All the cars were air conditioned with sealed tinted windows. The open partitions is probably for air flow in the car. The car only has one blower and it needs to ventilate the entire car. |
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Post by Spikre on Jul 19, 2015 11:38:21 GMT -8
Jim, thanks for the extra info on the KCS cars. wouldn't drink the water though !! as MRJournal had no problems saying the RI cars were "Jim Crow", am still disappointed that Bob Hundman dropped the Ball,,,BIG Time here !! and go back and read replies about these KCS and the C&O cars that Mainline also featured,Yes,they should have been labled as "Jim Crow" cars. for no other reason that the Cars were built to Obey "Jim Crow" laws. Spikre 
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Post by mlehman on Jul 19, 2015 14:01:43 GMT -8
Jim, thanks for the extra info on the KCS cars. wouldn't drink the water though !! as MRJournal had no problems saying the RI cars were "Jim Crow", am still disappointed that Bob Hundman dropped the Ball,,,BIG Time here !! and go back and read replies about these KCS and the C&O cars that Mainline also featured,Yes,they should have been labled as "Jim Crow" cars. for no other reason that the Cars were built to Obey "Jim Crow" laws. Spikre Spikre, So you're saying MM did publish info on that the KCS and C&O cars were designed to address the Jim Crow laws, but NOT the RI cars? And he got feedback on it? I can just imagine...even before the internet, there were cavemen and still are...maybe he just didn't want to stir that pot again? I do have to quibble with your conclusion that "the Cars were built to Obey "Jim Crow" laws." Technically, I suppose that's so. But laws are generally considered something you must obey. Which is not to say there aren't bad laws and getting them changed gets to be a priority. I think most will agree that there is a great moral cost to forcing obedience to immoral laws. I won't belabor the point, other than to remind as Jim did that the RRs didn't have a lot of choice in the matter, except... When it came to how they designed such accommodations. There, they seemed to be doing their best, based on our discussion of three sets of cars from different RRs, to EVADE the intent of the law or at least subvert the idea their passengers could be effectively separated from each other. That suggests a substantially different mindset from mere dutiful obedience. Sure, the RRs weren't paragons of virtue when it came to race relations in that era. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find those who were, outside of the African-American community as they were few in number and influence. Still, it could've been worse, while suggesting how segregation was crumbling in practice nationwide after WWII even as some in the South were digging in their heels to resist change. |
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Post by Spikre on Jul 21, 2015 11:09:30 GMT -8
Mike, am saying that Cars built to run thru Jim Crow States published in Mainline never ever mentioned that Fact !! this includes the KCS 1956 Coaches article, and the C&O Divided Diner article,,,so far. have the C&O Coach article,and N&W Powhatan Arrow coach articles, but havnt dug them out yet. Model Railroad Journal: had NO Problems stating that the Rock Island coaches were built for Jim Crow service. Northern and Western roads may have had cars,or divided cars for 1st Class,and 2nd Class,and Tourist Class passengers,but those cars went on the Price of Tickets sold,much different than just on what the passengers looked like. but am not really concerned with that type of thing here. and am still going to hold Bob Hundman's feet to the flames over what He didn't do in the pages of Mainline Modeler. Spikre
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Post by mlehman on Jul 21, 2015 12:05:08 GMT -8
OK, that's his right as editor/publisher/chief cook and bottle washer and yours as the reader.
I can't say what motivated Mr. Hundman one way or the other on this matter. But it's hardly like he's much different than lots of other folks, just preferring to not engage with this aspect of the subject matter. That's not to excuse it, more to say don't pick on him too hard -- there's millions more to go.
I will say as someone who's observed politics and society for a long time that Americans like to do the right thing if you don't spend a lot of time trying to blame them for doing the wrong thing. We should never, ever forget the past and how bad it was at times. On the other hand, our time on this earth is limited and we should also consider that if we want to change anything, we better get cracking. You can't change the past, you can only learn from it and use it to make the present and future better.
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Post by valenciajim on Jul 22, 2015 7:55:01 GMT -8
Mike--well put.
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Post by Spikre on Jul 22, 2015 11:44:23 GMT -8
 Mike, as a "Charter Subscriber" to Mainline Modeler,feel that was a help to enable Bob Hundman to complete His Dream with being able to launch Mainline Modeler. enjoyed almost everything else Mainline delivered,so find it hard to understand the "Problem" here with Jim Crow Cars. am glad that I was one of many that helped Mainline succeed in the early Years. but am now going to go back as time permits and check out the Passenger Cars that ran thru this "Gray Area" of outrite or clandestine discrimination. am also surprised that this was never noticed over the years of reading Mainline, or noted in the letters to the editor. and the issues here have been read many times. about 10 years back added up the issues on hand and came up with almost half of the published issues were on hand. today that number is slightly more,but still not quite 2/3rds of the issues,,,,,yet. as will still pick up issues when they can be found. Spikre
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Post by mlehman on Jul 22, 2015 17:20:53 GMT -8
Mike, as a "Charter Subscriber" to Mainline Modeler... SNIP...am now going to go back as time permits and check out the Passenger Cars that ran thru this "Gray Area" of outrite or clandestine discrimination. am also surprised that this was never noticed over the years of reading Mainline, or noted in the letters to the editor. and the issues here have been read many times. SNIP Spikre Now Spikre, I am not trying to cast any blame here, but are you saying you wrote a Letter to the Editor on this that went unpublished or that you are confessing you also were one of the "silent majority"? |
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Post by jaygee on Jul 23, 2015 6:32:54 GMT -8
What a gigantic waste of time! Once the problems of the past were fixed (and this takes a bit of time in some cases), to continue to dwell on this debris moves you into the realm of politics. And there is nothing more corrosive in a culture than politics ! Get over it ! Move on.
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Post by mlehman on Jul 23, 2015 11:42:41 GMT -8
Well, if discussion about the history of RR equipment and operations, especially in an area that is widely misunderstood and which limited info about exists is "dwelling" on the topic, I guess the hobby is guilty as charged. It's not politics or you'd know it...maybe.
Insisting the problems of the past are fixed is a provocatively political statement, which I won't bother addressing, because I think we've done a pretty good job of avoiding politics in what has been an interesting, educational, and generally positive conversation about what has been a difficult topic in general. That's what I mean about taking responsibility for making the present a better place. There's no need to read this if it upsets you and even less to say that others shouldn't have a discussion to hash out some points on the topic of the Jim Crow cars in the last years they were forced by law to operate.
But maybe you missed all that? As a teacher, I find you can usually tell when someone didn't bother reading the assignment when class participation time comes along. I think we addressed a lot of material here that you seemed to have skimmed over. It was worthwhile and I'd like that civil tone to continue. But if you don't want to discuss it, then perhaps it's best to take your own advice and not? Or at least take into consideration what others have said before joining in?
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Post by jaygee on Jul 23, 2015 13:51:52 GMT -8
....Thus proving the point ! Thank you ! Of course a politician will always have a cause to divide and conquer, or they will invent one. My head, as they say, is most decidedly not stuck in the sand.
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Post by Spikre on Jul 24, 2015 11:46:58 GMT -8
Mike, lets backtrack a bit, am still Adding to the Mainline collection already here. the issue in question with the 1956 KCS cars is a Recent Addition. been here about 3 months or so. the other thread that was mainly about the C&O cars built by P-S was what actually got me going on this subject. then the KCS article hit me in the head,the cars were built to satisfy the Jim Crow laws in the area that KCS ran thru. then refound the Rock Island car article in Journal,no problem there with calling a Crow a Crow. so this was a point A to point B discovery,some side trips here,and still have more C&O,Southern and N&W articles to go over. also have the article on the KCS "Southern Belle",but its eluding me in my room presently,but that should be re-read also,the sooner the better. FWIW,have never written a letter to Mainline,and after the Charter Subscription was finished went to buying the mags off the stands,mainly in LHS's. so Mainline came out around 1980,and it did take me until 2015 to notice this disturbing trend to IGNORE southern practices. but was never actively looking for info in this area until recently. Spikre
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Post by mlehman on Jul 24, 2015 11:59:03 GMT -8
So you really are doing the research actively here, not simply relying on memory? Very cool.
You're a historian, in deed.
I wasn't chiding you here, you know me better than that. But maybe you are being a little hard on Hundman. Consider just how hard it is for us to have this thoughtful discussion about your research without having people object to it even happening. Facts are annoying and pesky things; they get people talking, but not always in helpful ways. It might have been exactly why Hundman refrained from coverage of such details, he just didn't want to stir up a complex thing to explain correctly in the space he might have had available to do so or want to have to deal with the reactions he knew it would stir up. Or there could be other reasons.
Which is to not to say I don't agree with you that it was a lost opportunity. MM tried to be the definitive word and view on the prototype and this does seem to be a rather obvious and important factor in discussing the physical details of these cars. That way we would have this sort of info instead of still be digging for much that's just plain basic to know in order to understand the design and use of Jim Crow cars.
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Post by Spikre on Aug 2, 2015 8:45:32 GMT -8
 Mike, just a quick update here,the KCS "Southern Belle" article by Dr Nick Muff in Mainline does say the "Divided Coaches" are "Jim Crow" coaches. so why wasn't this info in the later article ? maybe not everyone would have both articles ? or was there a ton of letters to the editor after the Southern Belle Article ran ? will look for some issues a few months later and see if anything was printed. Spikre
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Post by mlehman on Aug 2, 2015 11:33:26 GMT -8
Spikre,
That is interesting. What issue was that? My MM collection is pretty thin, as few/none of the shops around here carried MM. I pick up old issues when I can, but my collection is spotty at best.
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Post by Spikre on Aug 2, 2015 17:55:28 GMT -8
Mike, Mainline - November 1995,pages 36-48, Dr Nick Muff author. there are some pages of Fold over drawings,including the complete Original 1940 Trains. several nice pictures of Miss Margaret Landry, the Original "Southern Belle". a picture of the coach interior showing the Grill Work between the car sections with a "Colored" sign on the small coach section,guess the large section had a "White" sign ? the cars had Names - Pittsburg,Joplin,Texarkana,Alexandria, and Baton Rouge. the cars seated 74,56 in the 48' White section,18 seats in 17' Colored section. the seats in both sections faced the same direction unlike cars built in 1956. one does wonder if the "Southern Belle" ever met Miss Phoebe Snow ? Spikre
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Post by grahamline on Aug 2, 2015 20:43:22 GMT -8
Maybe it wasn't in the later article because it had been covered in the earlier article?
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Post by Spikre on Aug 3, 2015 8:09:03 GMT -8
KCS Southern Belle Article,November 1995. KCS Divided Coach Article,January 2003. so these arnt exactly consecutive articles. and seems that many that have 1 article,may not have the other one. just got the 2003 article a few months back, but have had the 1995 article since it came out almost 20 years ago. YMMV. Spikre
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Post by Spikre on Aug 3, 2015 8:09:47 GMT -8
KCS Southern Belle Article,November 1995. KCS Divided Coach Article,January 2003. so these arnt exactly consecutive articles. and seems that many that have 1 article,may not have the other one. just got the 2003 article a few months back, but have had the 1995 article since it came out almost 20 years ago. YMMV. Spikre
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