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Post by fr8kar on Aug 13, 2015 20:49:54 GMT -8
Here in the megasprawl that is Fort Worth/Dallas, Texas, there are several places where many very similar buildings, most of them rail-served, are constructed with the intent of providing transportation of a wide variety of goods and raw materials to (most often) light industrial manufacturing or distribution. Here's an example: www.google.com/maps/@32.7525544,-97.0538427,1290m/data=!3m1!1e3 Edit: let's try again... tinyurl.com/pmheyldSometimes they are called Business Centers or Business Parks and other times the word Industrial is used instead of Business. I can't find any rhyme or reason why this varies. I wonder if the variation has anything to do with regional language or dialect? I find these places very interesting, both from a modeling point of view and an operating point of view. The curves are often very sharp, which is great for modelers who like a lot of action in a small space. The variety of businesses in these parks can vary wildly, from a food distributor to a soda bottler to a machine shop to a plastic cup manufacturer to you name it. The buildings themselves are often very nondescript, which makes it easy to build models of them using basic materials. And unlike a steel mill or grain elevator, it's often difficult to ascertain what products go in or out based solely on the building. So if you spot mechanical reefers, double door boxcars or high cube plug door boxcars at any given building, it doesn't look out of place like a gondola at a refinery. I guess it's a little weird to be fixated on what these full-size switching layouts are called, but I'm curious: what do you call these places? |
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Aug 14, 2015 5:56:38 GMT -8
Whether a complex is called an Industrial Park or Business Park may be totally up to the developer and or the municipality. A couple of things to consider.
Industrial Park may be given to places which are specifically geared to manufacturers. A business park may have provisions for businesses which are not doing manufacturing like plumbing supply, HVAC contractors, etc.
A municipality may think the word "business" versus "industrial" may be more "clean" sounding. Sometimes when industrial is used it brings up visions of dirt, noise, etc.. Business covers a lot of territory, not just manufacturers.
Some of the business or industrial parks I've seen usually have buildings which are of similar look and construction. It is definitely a very planned development with ample well kept landscaping to give the development that park like feel.
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Post by mlehman on Aug 14, 2015 8:30:24 GMT -8
I've also heard "distribution center" used, although this can also apply to a stand-alone facility.
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Post by dti406 on Aug 14, 2015 8:52:34 GMT -8
A lot of times it is dependent on the zoning laws, cities want to try and keep all the industrial types of business together, that is heavy manufacturing requiring a lot of raw materials, noise, pollution and such. Then there is light manufacturing where a semi-finished raw material is further machined into a finished product. And then business parks where there is warehousing, some light manufacturing, offices and even storefronts.
An example of bad practice was the change over of the area in China from warehousing to toxic chemicals, apartments were placed closer than the minimum allowed while it was warehousing. Then they changed the warehousing to toxic chemicals and you see what happened.
Rick J
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2015 10:05:00 GMT -8
Here in the megasprawl that is Fort Worth/Dallas, Texas, there are several places where many very similar buildings, most of them rail-served, are constructed with the intent of providing transportation of a wide variety of goods and raw materials to (most often) light industrial manufacturing or distribution. Here's an example: www.google.com/maps/@32.7525544,-97.0538427,1290m/data=!3m1!1e3 Edit: let's try again... tinyurl.com/pmheyldSometimes they are called Business Centers or Business Parks and other times the word Industrial is used instead of Business. I can't find any rhyme or reason why this varies. I wonder if the variation has anything to do with regional language or dialect? I find these places very interesting, both from a modeling point of view and an operating point of view. The curves are often very sharp, which is great for modelers who like a lot of action in a small space. The variety of businesses in these parks can vary wildly, from a food distributor to a soda bottler to a machine shop to a plastic cup manufacturer to you name it. The buildings themselves are often very nondescript, which makes it easy to build models of them using basic materials. And unlike a steel mill or grain elevator, it's often difficult to ascertain what products go in or out based solely on the building. So if you spot mechanical reefers, double door boxcars or high cube plug door boxcars at any given building, it doesn't look out of place like a gondola at a refinery. I guess it's a little weird to be fixated on what these full-size switching layouts are called, but I'm curious: what do you call these places? I'd call the center in your link an industrial park. But there is no "official" or legal name for this type of planned development. It varies by location, date, and who's talking. This area clearly has manufacturing and warehousing. "Business center" or pa An early example is this area, mostly in Vernon, CA which is served by the Los Angeles Junction Ry goo.gl/maps/z4QeK It was originally laid out by the UPRR in the early 20s or late 'teens(?) as a large planned industrial development near downtown LA. Many of these industrial and warehousing parks were developed & owned by railroads. Especially in the west. SP knew this- own the land, develop it (commercial and residential), and ship the stuff & people going to & from. This is the story of the Pacific Electric, which was primarily a land development company running (until something better, autos) interurban out to the homes on property they owned or once owned. RS Geographer, land use and transportation planner |
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Post by fr8kar on Aug 14, 2015 10:21:03 GMT -8
I'd call the center in your link an industrial park. But there is no "official" or legal name for this type of planned development. It varies by location, date, and who's talking. This area clearly has manufacturing and warehousing. That's exactly what I'm driving at: what is the regional name of these developments for your area? I know what they're called here (industrial parks, business centers, business parks, etc.). Believe me, I'm well acquainted with the legal names of several of these developments having performed land surveying services in just about all of them in the Fort Worth/Dallas area. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2015 10:46:46 GMT -8
I'd call the center in your link an industrial park. But there is no "official" or legal name for this type of planned development. It varies by location, date, and who's talking. This area clearly has manufacturing and warehousing. That's exactly what I'm driving at: what is the regional name of these developments for your area? I know what they're called here (industrial parks, business centers, business parks, etc.). Believe me, I'm well acquainted with the legal names of several of these developments having performed land surveying services in just about all of them in the Fort Worth/Dallas area. In SoCal, usually these are called industrial parks (especially if they are under a single property manager or are part of a planned development). Business center/park would be offices, maybe some office/light manufacturing, typically 1960s+ tilt-up buildings. If it wasn't developed under a master plan, it would usually be referred to as an "industrial area" or such, not a "park" or "center". |
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Post by valenciajim on Aug 14, 2015 11:27:57 GMT -8
Before I retired as a CPA, I spent my career working for real estate developers. I think the terms are used interchangeably. Indeed, I had clients with very similar facilities, some of which were called industrial parks while others were called business parks of business center. The industry call the sector "office/industrial."
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2015 12:05:37 GMT -8
Before I retired as a CPA, I spent my career working for real estate developers. I think the terms are used interchangeably. Indeed, I had clients with very similar facilities, some of which were called industrial parks while others were called business parks of business center. The industry call the sector "office/industrial." What industry lumps industrial and office together? To municipalities, office and industrial are as different as residential and office. Where there is zoning, they would almost always be separate with little mixing (for good or bad...that's another story). Office and "commercial", meaning light industrial, warehousing aka distribution are sometimes mixed. Industrial means that manufacturing or warehousing is taking place, although the business would have some office area. "Office" means what it says- people with no or very little goods moving in & out. Where there is zoning and gov't land use regulations, it's not that common to see offices and industrial (manufacturing) mixed. Then there's the "retail" sector which is what it sounds like. RS member, American Institute of Certified Planners & licensed Calif RE salesperson |
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Post by valenciajim on Aug 14, 2015 16:33:37 GMT -8
The REIT industry lumps them together. There are a number of REITs that have office and industrial portfolios. Duke Realty, Chambers Street Properties, Kilroy Realty, Arden Realty (now owned by GE) are all examples of REITs with portfolios having office and industrial components. Furthermore, much of the industrial space in this country is obsolete and is being reconfigured into office space. If you are in CA, look at many of the newer industrial parks. Individual parcels may be office or industrial, but they make up part of a larger office/industrial community. They have a combination of office structures and warehouse/manufacturing/lab facilities. (There even are hobby shops that use this space instead of retail space since the rent is so much cheaper per square foot.)
Retail is a totally different sector with several subsectors including regional malls, power centers, anchored neighborhood centers, strip centers and outlet centers.
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Post by fr8kar on Aug 14, 2015 18:20:25 GMT -8
Furthermore, much of the industrial space in this country is obsolete and is being reconfigured into office space. If you are in CA, look at many of the newer industrial parks. Individual parcels may be office or industrial, but they make up part of a larger office/industrial community. They have a combination of office structures and warehouse/manufacturing/lab facilities. The same thing is happening here. The park I linked to, Great Southwest Industrial Park, is an old park (by our standards, anyway - it dates from the 60s) and it was initially set up where every parcel was rail-served. There is still a lot of switching there, but the transportation balance has certainly shifted to trucking and many of the tenants aren't necessarily what you'd call light industrial. As far as rail service is concerned, GSWIP is doing much better than some of the older parks in Dallas. A few have had the rails removed almost entirely, with only faint traces visible by aerial photo or the odd rough crossing that's been paved over. Recently we've seen some new development in older areas and expansion in some newer areas. There is a large cargo focused airport nearby and a planned runway extension is causing many to speculate traffic will substantially increase, which in turn has (partially) supported a warehouse building boom. Most of the new development is not rail served, but about half of the expansion is. The rail expansion we are seeing locally is occurring in an existing but fairly new park. The overall plan/layout of the park only allows for about half the parcels to have rail service. Fortunately for me, there is a large structure under construction that promises to support around 40 carloads per week. The jobs that work that park still use an engineer, so I look forward to working this new switch job. |
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Post by valenciajim on Aug 15, 2015 8:26:37 GMT -8
Omaharoad makes a great point about individual parcels, how they are zoned and the intended use for that zoning. What has happened over the past quarter century is that you are seeing "master planned business communities that include a combination of both office and industrial. These communities are called different things, business parks, industrial parks, industrial centers, etc.
Much of the industrial space has become obsolete because of intermodal traffic. Industrial space today frequently requires a 40 foot ceiling to provide sufficient space for logistical operations. Thus a considerable amount of older industrial space does not meet the needs of current occupants who are engaging in logistical activities rather than manufacturing. This a lot of old manufacturing space is being converted to other uses--much of it office. I has a client who was a mortgage lender and they located their call center in a refurbished industrial facility.
Back in the 1980's I lived in Canoga Park and I remember an old orange grove in Chatsworth being replaced with a "business park" that had a mixture of office and industrial. There was rail service to the project. Teledyne had their corporate offices there as well as an adjacent manufacturing facility that was served by rail. Litton Industries (now part of Northrup Grumman) had an R&D lab there. The Los Angeles Times had its San Fernando Valley bureau located in a building which housed both office space and printing presses. The facility was served by rail. (There used to be ton of Columbia and Colwitz (sp) box cars delivering paper.) Finally there was a eight to ten story building that housed the corporate office of Great Western Savings and Loan. This was all part of a single development. I think this is the type of situation to which the original poster referred.
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