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Post by eh49 on Sept 13, 2015 5:52:00 GMT -8
Ok, of the Alco PA models which has the most accurate proportions particularly as far as the nose and windshields go? I guess right off the bat forget about the Athearn BB model. Which pretty much leaves Proto or MTH. Maybe it's time for a Genisis PA.
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Sept 13, 2015 7:00:44 GMT -8
Ok, of the Alco PA models which has the most accurate proportions particularly as far as the nose and windshields go? I guess right off the bat forget about the Athearn BB model. Which pretty much leaves Proto or MTH. Maybe it's time for a Genisis PA. I could see something like that happening. Especially after Doyle McCormack's ex-AT&SF/D&H PA in NKP paint starts to wander. This will generate interest in the PA. |
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Post by riogrande on Sept 13, 2015 7:31:44 GMT -8
I haven't read much in the way of critical reviews or analysis of the two better quality PA's out on the market from Proto 2000 and BLI. I've got a Proto 2000 PA in D&RGW 4-stripe in storage, but it looks pretty decent. I didn't think there was a need for a better model but I could be wrong.
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Sept 13, 2015 7:57:08 GMT -8
Quite happy with my Proto PAs  |
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Post by mlehman on Sept 13, 2015 8:27:47 GMT -8
The P2K PA looks great and is definitely the more affordable option. Try to find the later run for a better drivetrain/motor. The original run had an amp-hog motor. IIRC, the first run was powered A, unpowered B, while the second, single stripe run had the better motors and both units powered. I bought both, swapped shells to put the good motors under both 4-stripe shells, sold off the single striped A on ebay and converted the spare now-unpowered single stripe B into a heater car.  Somewhere along the way, the nose door on the A unit was lost on the hidden track, so she's been on the deadline. The heater car is a quick and dirty version of the prototype, so I numbered it 254 and said good enough.  Haven't seen the MTH in person, but I wasn't too impressed from viewing the online pic. The grille work on the sides looked a bit crude to my eye. |
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Post by bigblow69 on Sept 13, 2015 8:51:12 GMT -8
How was the Marklin/Trix PA?
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Post by rockfan on Sept 13, 2015 8:56:25 GMT -8
What is the purpose of the heater car? Didn't the locomotives provide enough heat?
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Sept 13, 2015 9:23:13 GMT -8
What is the purpose of the heater car? Didn't the locomotives provide enough heat? Rio Grande and a number of other northern railways needed additional steam capacity during the harshest winter weather. Think Great Northern, Northern Pacific and Milwaukee Road. Plus, for the Rio Grande the heater car(ex-PB) was eventually used with freight diesels and then converted to HEP electrical production. Some time during the late 1970'd or early 1980's the Rio Grande substituted EMD Blomberg B's for the A-1-A ALCO trucks. |
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leikec
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Post by leikec on Sept 13, 2015 9:25:54 GMT -8
The biggest problem with the Proto PA is that the loco doesn't hold up to handling very well if you (like me) are constantly rotating equipment on and off the layout.
Jeff C
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2015 9:31:33 GMT -8
If I remember correctly the Precision scale models PA was made from the same mold as the trix/marklin ones. I've noticed that the proto 2000 PA is somewhat similar to the Athearn BB. No matter which you choose they are all wrong. Mostly the dynamic brake stuff on the top is the wrong size. I believe Overland models was the only company to make the dynamic brake housing and stuff in the correct size. On the proto 2000 and on the MTH versions the dynamic housing is smaller than it should be, but on the athearn bluebox it's too wide. Also concor made a version before the Athearn blueboxes, but finding a complete one is extremely rare. I actually own one strangely enough.
When it comes down to it, the brass versions are the best and I've seen them go for under 200 dollars. Both from Overland and from key imports. The others such as balboa, katsumi, westside, etc are garbage. The proto 2000s are the best for the buck unless you want to spend just a little bit more for the brass. I remember someone said on another forum that the Marklin/trix, MTH, and Precision scale are all made from the same mold. However, I can't confirm that as i don't own every single version. I think MTH sued Precision scale or something and used their molds.
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Post by riogrande on Sept 13, 2015 9:34:35 GMT -8
The biggest problem with the Proto PA is that the loco doesn't hold up to handling very well if you (like me) are constantly rotating equipment on and off the layout. Jeff C If Athearn Genesis made a PA, it would probably be no more sturdy than the Proto 2000. I imagine if you need a loco that holds up to lots of handling, either brass or a blue box Athearn PA would be needed. Rockfan, none of my books explain why D&RGW added the PB steam generators to the California Zephyr in 1965 when they were converted - but they were used pretty much as standard equipment until the train was discontinued. On the Rio Grande Zephyr, the PB-SG car was only used during the colder months and it was absent in the summer. Lots of photos demonstrate that. The D&RGW in 1965 converted both of their PB units into steam generator cars and removed the prime mover. They didn't have that big fan on the top since it was no longer needed - it was plated over along with the side air grills. I took an Athearn PB shell and sanded that detail off to prepare it for painting but never finished the project although I still the shell and a dummy chassis. From what I understand, the P2K D&RGW 4-stripe PA was from the 2nd run - reportedly it was only the first run that had the high amp draw motors. Is that your experience Mike? I did some research some months back and from all I could determine, the P2K D&RGW 4-stripe PA was from the 2nd run, not the first. |
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Post by valenciajim on Sept 13, 2015 10:13:44 GMT -8
I have a Trix version of the PA and it is a great runner, but not as detailed at the Proto PAs I have.
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Post by eh49 on Sept 13, 2015 10:32:47 GMT -8
The biggest problem with the Proto PA is that the loco doesn't hold up to handling very well if you (like me) are constantly rotating equipment on and off the layout. Jeff C If Athearn Genesis made a PA, it would probably be no more sturdy than the Proto 2000. I imagine if you need a loco that holds up to lots of handling, either brass or a blue box Athearn PA would be needed. Rockfan, none of my books explain why D&RGW added the PB steam generators to the California Zephyr in 1965 when they were converted - but they were used pretty much as standard equipment until the train was discontinued. On the Rio Grande Zephyr, the PB-SG car was only used during the colder months and it was absent in the summer. Lots of photos demonstrate that. The D&RGW in 1965 converted both of their PB units into steam generator cars and removed the prime mover. They didn't have that big fan on the top since it was no longer needed - it was plated over along with the side air grills. I took an Athearn PB shell and sanded that detail off to prepare it for painting but never finished the project although I still the shell and a dummy chassis. From what I understand, the P2K D&RGW 4-stripe PA was from the 2nd run - reportedly it was only the first run that had the high amp draw motors. Is that your experience Mike? I did some research some months back and from all I could determine, the P2K D&RGW 4-stripe PA was from the 2nd run, not the first. So, we could still use the "Ultimate PA". For years Kato has had their excellent N Scale model, now, if they would only do a HO version up to today's standards. |
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Post by The Ferro Kid on Sept 13, 2015 10:33:39 GMT -8
There are spreadsheets of all the various Life-Like P2k runs at: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oGTLvgjIwHmb6zWeujEQq9mbniolqfHYTIY33PTj6Kc/htmlview?pli=1Just click on the model you are interested in at the top of the screen. I can't vouch for its complete accuracy of course, but it rings true on any items I've looked up for which I have knowledge from my own orders, and I spent quite a bit of time looking at the PAs in particular in putting together my ill-fated Walthers Mainline Fallen Flags passenger train order. |
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Post by riogrande on Sept 13, 2015 10:42:45 GMT -8
So, we could still use the "Ultimate PA". For years Kato has had their excellent N Scale model, now, if they would only do a HO version up to today's standards. I wouldn't count on KATO - they do very little in HO anymore - a few modern wide cabs and the odd repeat of some older models. Athearn Genesis would be nice or if the Scale Train guys do a HQ model, that might be tops too, hopefully. There are spreadsheets of all the various Life-Like P2k runs at: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oGTLvgjIwHmb6zWeujEQq9mbniolqfHYTIY33PTj6Kc/htmlview?pli=1Just click on the model you are interested in at the top of the screen. I can't vouch for its complete accuracy of course, but it rings true on any items I've looked up for which I have knowledge from my own orders, and I spent quite a bit of time looking at the PAs in particular in putting together my ill-fated Walthers Mainline Fallen Flags passenger train order. I think thats the list I recall seeing - but I didn't have it bookmarked. It shows the first run did not include D&RGW and from what I've been told, it was only the first run that had the super high amp draw. I do intend to test mine before installing a decoder however, as I do not know for sure if the 2nd run also had the problem or if those were improved. The only thing I didn't care for on the Proto 2000 PA was the front coupler pocket didn't look right - it's like they made the opening extra wide to handle coupling on sharper curves or something and made you fill it in with the parts supplied - which didn't look right, but otherwise they appeared to be handsome models. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 13, 2015 10:45:51 GMT -8
Ferro,
I didn't know about that site. THANKS!!!!!
I remember when Lifelike used to have a bunch of the same info online. I didn't save it. And then it go Walthersized (gone).
Considering that there won't be anymore "old" P2K stuff, I believe I'll save all that, this time. It'll never go out of date.
Ed
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Post by Judge Doom on Sept 13, 2015 10:46:36 GMT -8
What is the purpose of the heater car? Didn't the locomotives provide enough heat? Rio Grande and a number of other northern railways needed additional steam capacity during the harshest winter weather. Think Great Northern, Northern Pacific and Milwaukee Road. Plus, for the Rio Grande the heater car(ex-PB) was eventually used with freight diesels and then converted to HEP electrical production. Some time during the late 1970'd or early 1980's the Rio Grande substituted EMD Blomberg B's for the A-1-A ALCO trucks. And that PB generator car is still running today for CN, on the former Algoma Central. |
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Post by mlehman on Sept 13, 2015 10:48:21 GMT -8
snip From what I understand, the P2K D&RGW 4-stripe PA was from the 2nd run - reportedly it was only the first run that had the high amp draw motors. Is that your experience Mike? I did some research some months back and from all I could determine, the P2K D&RGW 4-stripe PA was from the 2nd run, not the first. Jim, You could very well be right on which run had the single stripe. Between CRS and being a bit dyslexic, your guess may be better than my memory. However, the high amp motor was definitely in whichever run first had a Rio Grande option, if it was indeed not the first run by LL. Because one of my two sets definitely had that monster in it, which is why I disposed of it instead of converting it to DCC when the time came to do that. Bottom line here is when buying a P2K PA/PB on fleabay, confirm what drive is under the shell if it matters to you. I was upfront in my listing about swapping the shell on the space heater motor chassis. Others may not know or aren't as honest. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2015 10:49:56 GMT -8
I'd like to see kits of PA-1s and PA-2s. Every railroad that had an Alco PA on their roster had their own features. Sometimes it was something small, but other times it was highly noticeable. Such as Erie taking off the side skirts and putting louvers on the the side of the nose of the engine. Plus the handrail on the nose arrangement. Other railroads had ladders on the sides. Then of course you have the Southern Pacific fleet with all the modernized decked out units with their own special made plows.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 13, 2015 10:58:09 GMT -8
Re: heater cars GN got into them because they didn't have steam generators in their electrics. And passengers get SO cranky when their little tushies are cold. That might explain the Milwaukee's heater cars. I don't know Milw all that well. I don't think NP had any heater cars. They DID have water-baggage cars, but that's different. UP also had some heater cars: boiler-dorms 300-304. OMI did a model, back in the day--waayyyy coooool. Prototype was built to stick on the back of the City of Everywhere so as to heat the back of the very long train (see tushie comment above):  Note 6 and 4 wheel trucks! Ed |
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Post by The Ferro Kid on Sept 13, 2015 11:15:52 GMT -8
SNIP I think thats the list I recall seeing - but I didn't have it bookmarked. It shows the first run did not include D&RGW and from what I've been told, it was only the first run that had the super high amp draw. I do intend to test mine before installing a decoder however, as I do not know for sure if the 2nd run also had the problem or if those were improved. SNIP One rather protracted discussion of hi-amp versus low-amp P2k Alco PA motors seems to conclude that the hi-amp was indeed only the 1st run: cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/p/244687/2726349.aspx?page=1 |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Sept 13, 2015 11:29:17 GMT -8
Folks, If you want to see what Life-Like used to have on their website (which includes what and when), just use the Internet Wayback Machine: web.archive.org/web/*/www.lifelikeproducts.comPick the year, then pick the date. It's normally not a complete save, but generally one can stumble around their old website and find the info there. As for RR's that had heater cars, the NH had 10 of them (but only 5 at one time). They were normally used in the electrified zone when freight engines were called into passenger service. They could also be used when train length was long or the temps were very low. |
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Post by riogrande on Sept 13, 2015 12:11:31 GMT -8
However, the high amp motor was definitely in whichever run first had a Rio Grande option, if it was indeed not the first run by LL. Because one of my two sets definitely had that monster in it, which is why I disposed of it instead of converting it to DCC when the time came to do that. Eventually I will find out if what I was told is true, and yours was an anomaly, or if the first and second runs had high amp motors. During my google search, I did run across a how-to guide on replacing the motor - might have been TTX-DCC website (Tony's Train Exchange) to replace with a NWSL motor. Might or might not be cheaper than buying a later run PA just for the chassis. |
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Sept 13, 2015 12:21:54 GMT -8
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Post by mlehman on Sept 13, 2015 12:38:05 GMT -8
However, the high amp motor was definitely in whichever run first had a Rio Grande option, if it was indeed not the first run by LL. Because one of my two sets definitely had that monster in it, which is why I disposed of it instead of converting it to DCC when the time came to do that. Eventually I will find out if what I was told is true, and yours was an anomaly, or if the first and second runs had high amp motors. During my google search, I did run across a how-to guide on replacing the motor - might have been TTX-DCC website (Tony's Train Exchange) to replace with a NWSL motor. Might or might not be cheaper than buying a later run PA just for the chassis. Jim, Right now I don't recall where that PA/PB set came from. Think it was before ebay. Perhaps I was the victim of the motor/chassis switcheeroo myself anyway? That would explain things. I'm sure not going to sort out from the references at this late date what exactly I had, except that the two motors in the 2 PA/PB sets I had were definitely different. I am, however, absolutely certain they were Rio Grande!  |
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Sept 13, 2015 19:46:55 GMT -8
snip F Bottom line here is when buying a P2K PA/PB on fleabay, confirm what drive is under the shell if it matters to you. I was upfront in my listing about swapping the shell on the space heater motor chassis. Others may not know or aren't as honest. I recently saw a set of Athearn PAs at an antique store in a generic box with a full page advertisement for Proto 2000 PAs and told the store owner who had no clue but said she'd say something to the dealer about them. Was asking $125 for War Bonnet Santa Fe. |
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Post by everywherewestontheq on Sept 13, 2015 20:07:00 GMT -8
MILW had heater cars built from tenders for use on electrified lines and occasionally elsewhere on the system. I haven't done much research on them, but I do have a photo of one in yellow next to an FP7 in what has been assumed to be somewhere in WI.
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Post by riogrande on Sept 14, 2015 2:10:19 GMT -8
D&RGW and two other steam generator cars made from the tenders of scrapped steam engines which were stationed to protect the RGZ. A photo has an interesting story associated with it in Rio Grande in Color Vol 5 - the photo was captured in Ogden Utah and dhows a D&RGW SW1200 placing a Rio Grande steam generator onto Amtrak's San Francisco Zephyr:
"A cold snap has hit the Intermountain West and the two Amtrack SDP 40F's pulling the east bound San Francisco Zephyr are having steam boiler troubles. This was the era before Amtrack went to all electric head end power. Amtrak put out a call to all the railroads in the Ogden Salt Lake area for any thing that had a steam boiler in it. Southern Pacific pulled all of its passenger power out of Ogden when Amtrak started up. Western Pacific wasn't running passenger trains anymore; just non-Amtrak railroad Rio Grande kept a standby steam generator in Salt Lake City to protect the Rio Grande Zephyr. So with a full head of steam escaping from the pop off valves, SW1200 #136 gently couples up Steam Generator #250 to the very late running Amtrak train. And just for the record, steam generator #250 was made from the tender of 4-6-6-4 @3738, which blew up in October of 1952. Ogden Utah, Feb 1974."
I've noted during the latter years of the CZ, the Western Pacific also used a steam generator car - theirs appeared to have been made with an old short baggage car.
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Post by jaygee on Sept 14, 2015 2:51:23 GMT -8
I'll take the MTH PA over the P2k, but the old Con Cor was better than either ! Hobbytown was also excellent, but tough to work with a zinc body.
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Post by riogrande on Sept 14, 2015 4:02:53 GMT -8
Anyone have photo's of the Concor. I don't recall seeing their PA and was a little suprised to read they had one but my memory sometimes isn't good. Thats saying something that Concors PA was better than P2K and MTH's - I haven't found Concors models to be remarkable, although I do own a few pieces of rolling stock by them.
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