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Post by valenciajim on Sept 23, 2015 7:35:44 GMT -8
Jim, Or, the main reason why RMC's page count has increased may be due to a much cheaper advertising rate under the new publisher. I know that MR's ads are very expensive, but with largest magazine sales in the hobby, apparently they feel they deserve it. Perhaps RMC is taking the volume over individual cost approach to ads? Paul, Given its higher circulation, I have no doubt that it charges a premium for its advertisements. Also RMC is reinvigorating a tired brand. RMC also has a lower cost structure so it can sell its advertising for less. I got the latest issue of RMC yesterday and it has the same page count as the prior month. Not sure what that means, but I will say the issue was excellent in terms of content. Regards, Jim |
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Post by pacbelt on Sept 24, 2015 2:12:32 GMT -8
pacbelt, I like the name (hey, it's my initials!).  If RTR is the death of the hobby and building kits is the only way to increase participation, then why did Lionel do so well in the 1950's? Why did so many old time model railroaders get their start with Lionel, the RTR kings? Perhaps instead of spending hours putting together fussy kits (like old metal Athearn kits, LaBelle & Ambroid wood kits, etc.), modelers are doing other things, like building structures, doing scenery, weathering RTR models, wiring up DCC/Sound installations, and running operation sessions. Not every model railroader has to build kits to be satisfied in our hobby. Not every Model Railroader wants to pay 4 times what a model's worth, to MAYBE get it, if China doesn't have problems, to get it, and immediately start complaining that there's only 12 rivets on the 4th rib, when there's supposed to be 14..... Or pay $200 PLUS, for a Locomotive model, that was rushed into LIMITED production (so not everybody who wants one, will get one!) - only to take it out of the box to find that tiny delicate parts have fallen off. Or, they put it on the track and it won't move, or flies off the layout! And LIONEL is a bad example! They were always first and foremost, TOYS! Well made toys. That niche got messed up too by the mid 1980's..... All of a sudden, almost everything they put out, was marketed and received as COLLECTIBLE. Production numbers went down, prices went UP! A LOT!  [I have my first Lionel train set. I got it in 1969... and it runs just as well today as it did then. I'll probably pass it down to my Granddaughter!] Then Kato started doing the same in HO Scale, in the early 1990's. And it just got worse... SURE, we got a lot of innovation. We got DCC (whether you wanted it or not!) and sound (which I admit, really enhanced operations). BUT, during that period, MODELERS could still buy KITS!! MANY of us truly enjoy building, and modifying (enhancing) our models. It's a real source of pride and accomplishment. People could buy RTR trains if they wanted, or buy kits, at greatly reduced prices, and have a nice variety of detail parts, from several AMERICAN companies. Off the shelf, always available! There was CHOICES! Then sadly, the industry lost Irv Athearn.... The following years, Horizon bought them. Other companies also, followed suit in the mergers and acquisitions game. Then outsourcing. Then the hobby became less and less "hobby" and more business. And many people today treat is as status quo, like this is how it is. Many forget..... |
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Post by riogrande on Sept 24, 2015 3:35:38 GMT -8
Selected Wegmans up here in Western New York carry MR and RMC, as well as Railfan & Railroad and Classic Trains. Selection varies by store, mostly given the space allotted to the magazine section. <snip> We actually have a number of Wegmans in northern Virginia too, so I can get my fix of Dinosaur BBQ or Hoffmans white hotdogs when needed - something I took for granted when living in upstate NY. Hah hah... my eye's always glaze over when I see stuff about using smart phones or wifi to control trains. I have this thing about using old fashioned rotary knobs etc, and am not a big fan of the touch screen for train control. One good reason is the tactile feedback of physical controls allow you to keep your eye's on the train, not where your finger is on the darn touch screen! Anyway, been like that all my life, back when some Stereo's had slider controls, still preferred rotary knobs back then too - better control. I had an old style cell phone until just earlier this year; the only reason my wife and I disposed of them was we were tired of Verizon fleecing us - we found if we bought Nokia Lumia smart phones we could go on a $3/mo pay as you go plan and save around $50-60 a month cause we can use Wifi for many situations along with Skype and Viber etc. And there is a regular quarum of members there who pretty much fit that description - they are so good at being curmudgeons and subtley trolling that it is evident that they get the most fun out that rather that the constructive variety of hobby forum participation. I feel a big problem also, is that the hobby is losing MODEL railroaders... I hate to sound like an old fart, but we the hobbyists, have turned this into a detailed out of the box, overpriced, RTR world. The end of the blue box ... We NEED to get back to building our trains and detailing, scratchbuilding and the like. The kids (and executive noobs!), FORGOT the satisfaction and enjoyment of it... My wallet fully agree's with you. But every time I visit train shows, I am reminded that the blue box kit (and the like) is NOT dead, but alive and well at many vendors tables for the taking and priced accordingly - cheap. I've built plenty of kits but am a bit of a klutz with glue and well, don't enjoy kit building overly much. Add to that I have house projects (drywall, painting, french drain, basement leak repair, tiling the floor, etc) that need to be done before I can get back to working on the layout, so I am happy, no VERY happy that detailed prototypical RTR rolling stock has been available to keep my back log from growing further. Most of the stuff comes far better than what I could do, although I have managed to build some Proto 2000, Intermountain etc. kits and have them turnout decnt - and of course umpteen Athearn, MDC, Accurail, Walthers, E&C etc. I greatly admire those who can scratch build, weather etc. and come up with works of art - we have some fine modelers here in the forum that help inspire us. Cheers, Jim |
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Post by pacbelt on Sept 24, 2015 4:28:04 GMT -8
Jim,
I completely agree with your point of view!
You have well illustrated why there should ALWAYS be a choice.
RTR is good for some, kit building is good for others...
The modern problem is - the kit builders have steadily been losing their options.
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Post by riogrande on Sept 24, 2015 5:22:31 GMT -8
The market has been shifting and it is becoming a greater challenge to obtain detail parts. There was a discussion at Train Orders recently about that. Based on that discussion, it appears that detail parts will continue to be made available, but due to some changes in the market and the make-up of the companies, supplies of parts will continue but be more spotty. Overall, it's good news all things considered. www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?3,3848294,3848294#msg-3848294 |
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Post by mlehman on Sept 24, 2015 11:06:39 GMT -8
I've yet to run out of kits. Sure, you don't see fancy full page ads for kits much any more. The big money that pays for that sort of thing has shifted to RTR. But this is more about the growth of RTR than it is the demise of kits. Between shows, ebay, and old stock sitting on the shelf various places, there's still lots of coverage. There are a few newer kit-oriented companies like Moloco who still intro new kits regularly. Others like EaxctRail still do kits with some things IIRC. And IM/Red Caboose offers kits, although you usually have to reserve them because most of the run goes out to be built as RTR. So don't count kit ads as adding up to the end of hands-on modeling. Like you say, it's a choice and most who can afford it choose RTR. Nothing wrong with that, because to build a layout, you'll have your plate full anyway. Of course, you could decide to narrow your horizons by going narrowgauge, where there is a little RTR (thank you, Blackstone!) but otherwise much as people remember about the good ol' days in standard gauge. If you want to split the difference, check out Rio Grande Models, where Eric Bracher continues to produce new kits. Many are also in standard gauge or are off-track vehicles or equipment where gauge is irrelevant. BTW, he does HO, O and S, plus narrowgauge in each. www.riograndemodels.com/Jim, I was a smartphone-as-throttle skeptic, too, until I tried one. They (iPhones with WiThrottle, anyway) are actually rather remarkable in how smooth they are to manipulate. True, no physical feedback of throttle position if you're not looking at it, but the thing can easily be run without looking at it after a little practice. Much better than the old slider controls they usually resemble. YMMV  |
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Post by calzephyr on Sept 24, 2015 13:15:29 GMT -8
It is interesting that MRH has attracted many people who used to appear regularly in MR. I suspect that MRH does not have huge bricks and mortar offices. Its digital only format probably means lower production costs. When you look at their video productions and compare them to MR's video productions, the MRH videos are more informative, are more entertaining and are aimed at a younger audience. Furthermore, MRH has done a better job of balancing the needs of the entry level hobbyist with those of more experienced modelers. The younger generation gets its information increasingly from digital media, rather than from print magazine. So in this way, MR needs to be more like its competitor who is a fraction of its size. Sears was No.1 in its market for nearly a century, but today it struggles to survive because it could not adapt to new competitors who were, at one time, small in comparison to it. I think as the next generation of newbies arrives, it will be clear that MRH will be formidable competition for MR. RMC is trying to figure out where it fits in. I recently retired after spending 40+ years with a Big 4 accounting firm. During my career, one consistent theme was if a company does not reinvent itself regularly to keep up with the times, it was doomed. I think MR understands this, but it is tough to effectively reinvent yourself when you are weighted down with a bricks and mortar infrastructure causing you to be not as nimble in fully responding to competitive pressures. [/p]
Personally, I hope that all the magazines enjoy success as that is best for the consumer.
Regards,
Jim [/quote] Jim That is a good analogy of Sears in the past and today. I remember Joe of MRH contributing to MR for several years and tried to get them to look into or use his on line information.. From what I heard if it is correct, he cut ties with MR since they would not step up to the on line products that Joe was working on. I too hope all of the magazines make money and continue to exist. All media outlets must continue to evolve with the latest concepts and be there for the public's interests. Larry |
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Post by pacbelt on Sept 24, 2015 17:44:10 GMT -8
I've yet to run out of kits. Sure, you don't see fancy full page ads for kits much any more. The big money that pays for that sort of thing has shifted to RTR. But this is more about the growth of RTR than it is the demise of kits. Between shows, ebay, and old stock sitting on the shelf various places, there's still lots of coverage. There are a few newer kit-oriented companies like Moloco who still intro new kits regularly. Others like EaxctRail still do kits with some things IIRC. And IM/Red Caboose offers kits, although you usually have to reserve them because most of the run goes out to be built as RTR. So don't count kit ads as adding up to the end of hands-on modeling. Like you say, it's a choice and most who can afford it choose RTR. Nothing wrong with that, because to build a layout, you'll have your plate full anyway. Of course, you could decide to narrow your horizons by going narrowgauge, where there is a little RTR (thank you, Blackstone!) but otherwise much as people remember about the good ol' days in standard gauge. If you want to split the difference, check out Rio Grande Models, where Eric Bracher continues to produce new kits. Many are also in standard gauge or are off-track vehicles or equipment where gauge is irrelevant. BTW, he does HO, O and S, plus narrowgauge in each. www.riograndemodels.com/Jim, I was a smartphone-as-throttle skeptic, too, until I tried one. They (iPhones with WiThrottle, anyway) are actually rather remarkable in how smooth they are to manipulate. True, no physical feedback of throttle position if you're not looking at it, but the thing can easily be run without looking at it after a little practice. Much better than the old slider controls they usually resemble. YMMV ~ My "Side Hobby" is On30. I love the freedom of the slightly whimsical. Yet, detailing can be taken to the N'th degree, because companies like Wisemann and others, cater to O scale modelers with a generous amount of mostly brass, finely molded details. |
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Post by roadkill on Sept 25, 2015 9:26:51 GMT -8
atsfan, All printed periodicals are hurting. MR's woes echo the industry. What I always find fascinating in these anti-MR threads is that many people want MR to be more like RMC. Well, since MR has far more subscribers than RMC (and always has), this makes no sense. Seriously, if you owned a company that was No. 1 in it's market, would you try to be more like your competitor, who is not only ranked No. 2, but may have only 20%-25% of your sales? If anything, RMC should be more like MR if they want to survive (and to some extent, the new RMC is moving that way with better paper, pictures and writing). MR is the gateway to our hobby and serves the beginner and lower-skilled modelers. Like every hobby, those who have lessor skills are more numerous than the highly skilled, and there's more money to be made serving a greater number of newbies than the hard core masters of the craft. Just because MR outsells RMC does not automatically make it "better". Is a Camry a "better" car than a C class Benz? Hardly, but since the Camry sells far better then it must be the better car, right? There are myriad definitions of "better". |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Sept 25, 2015 10:22:42 GMT -8
pacbelt,
4 times what a model's worth? Want to give an example? Or do you just believe that every $200 loco should really only be $50?
You prefer not to have limited runs. Perhaps you'd care to go back to the good ol' days, back when little if anything actually came out, instead. Do you know how many new diesels Irv Athearn came out with from about 1981 to 1991? The GP38-2, GP40-2, GP50, SD40-2, and SD40T-2. That's 5 new locos in a decade, or one every other year. From 2001 to 2011, Athearn made 55 new loco models. Admittedly, around a dozen of these are updated older models, but that's still leaves over 40 new locos in 10 years vs. the good ol' days of 5 in 10 years. Thanks, but I prefer the method that makes small numbers of what I want vs. the method that makes mass quantities of a few things I don't want.
How can little parts coming off a model be a problem if you think that kits are the way to go? I would have thought you'd enjoy gluing tiny little parts onto a model.
My Lionel example was to show that at the very zenith of model railroading in this country, when both Lionel and American Flyer had TV shows for pete's sake, that kit building was not the majority interest of the hobby.
Kato? What do they have to do with anything? They have never been marketed as "collectible" anything. True limited runs of high quality models began with the Proto 2000 BL2 in 1989, followed quickly by the 70tonner from Bachmann Spectrum. Kato was still making drives for Atlas and Stewart at the time.
Modelers today can still buy kits: Accurail, Bowser, Kadee to name a few. Then there's the untold thousands of kits available online or at every train show...new in the box, never built. Details West, Details Associates, Custom Finishing and many other parts companies are still around and available. So what choices have been taken away from you?
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Sept 25, 2015 10:32:13 GMT -8
roadkill,
Huh? Where did I say that MR was "better" in any way, shape or form? The word "better" only appears once in my post, and that refers to the higher quality paper in RMC these days.
The point here is that MR is a business, a business that has had a constant production that has kept every MR employee paid since 1934. RMC can't say that.
I will say that MR has historically been a better business than RMC, with much higher sales (around 4 to 1, IIRC). I will also say that MR has had better writing than RMC, with much better photography and on better paper. The better content of MR vs. RMC...well, that's up to the reader. But one can't deny that MR was physically a better magazine with a much better bottom line over the decades. Now maybe the new RMC will change some of that (it's already better than Carstens version), but they've got a lot of ground to make up.
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Post by valenciajim on Sept 26, 2015 10:39:28 GMT -8
Paul, when I was a kid in the early 1960's I thought RMC was better (but not by much). That was when it was published by Penn. When I returned to the hobby in the early 1980's I was amazed at how much better MR was than RMC. I agree that Kalmbach has been a much more stable publisher over the years than the various publishers of RMC. We shall see what the future holds. I think everything will be digital at some point.
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Sept 26, 2015 14:14:40 GMT -8
The kit has gone the way of the stagecoach and like it or not, it is not coming back, especially when the models themselves are manufactured across the Pacific.
The reason blue box kits are found so cheaply at flea markets is because the kit were so overproduced that the excess stock will last for decades. Plus, if kits were still a very viable option in model railroading the prices of these blue box kits would be getting pricey. But look at the quality of the blue box kit. Some cars like the 40' boxcar is too wide and high(if I am correct) among other things. The 50' gondola is supposed to be 53' but Athearn tooled it 50'. The wide vision caboose is a Rock Island prototype. Other than Rock Island, Chicago & Northwestern(secondhand RI owner) and Metra(got one of the cabooses when RTA purchased the line from Chicago to Joliet), every scheme is a fantasy scheme and not close to prototype. To hack....the hack into another road takes time, money and skill. A true to prototype caboose from a Bowser is $28. Centralia Shops a little more. Not many folks want to spend hours upon hours on something when top of the line RTR models are not that much money.
In locomotives how many want to go back to the wide body Athearn locomotives? Only the SW1500, SW1000, GP38-2, GP40-2, GP50, SD40-2 and SD40T-2 were scale width hood in the blue box line. What did you get for your $30? About six paint schemes with a single number per paint scheme. The locomotive featured stamped steel handrails, one size fits all horn and campfire in the cab lighting. Now DCC ready locomotives cost around $100 from the discount houses and blow the $30 Athearn blue box model out of the water. You pay more but are getting much more. That old blue box locomotive will still cost you about $30 to $40 in detail parts at today's prices if not more, so that blue box is now near the RTR price. Plus, even though I can custom paint, I can't paint and letter a model as well as the Chinese factory.
The hobby of model railroading has changed drastically over the last couple of decades. Walthers now gives up prototype passenger trains at a clip of one a year. Gone are the days of either paying dearly for brass or getting by with AHM cars or shorty Athearn cars.
Something is driving the RTR line of model railroading and its dollars. It seems more want to spend or don't seem to mind spending the bucks for these models in RTR form. If people weren't spending the cash, the manufacturers would be making kits, but as long as the people buy RTR and pay the prices, the manufacturers would be stupid not to continue to pump out product and rake in the profits.
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Post by grahamline on Sept 26, 2015 18:32:34 GMT -8
We have visitors to our club who are literally astounded that a: we paint and decal our locomotives, and b: scratchbuild our buildings. Some of these people have large, complex home layouts -- all out of the box and with very basic scenery. There are more of them all the time and frankly, they are missing a lot of the fun of the hobby.
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Post by jbilbrey on Sept 26, 2015 18:34:48 GMT -8
The reason blue box kits are found so cheaply at flea markets is because the kit were so overproduced that the excess stock will last for decades. Plus, if kits were still a very viable option in model railroading the prices of these blue box kits would be getting pricey. But look at the quality of the blue box kit. Some cars like the 40' boxcar is too wide and high(if I am correct) among other things. The 50' gondola is supposed to be 53' but Athearn tooled it 50'. The wide vision caboose is a Rock Island prototype. Other than Rock Island, Chicago & Northwestern(secondhand RI owner) and Metra(got one of the cabooses when RTA purchased the line from Chicago to Joliet), every scheme is a fantasy scheme and not close to prototype. To hack....the hack into another road takes time, money and skill. A true to prototype caboose from a Bowser is $28. Centralia Shops a little more. Not many folks want to spend hours upon hours on something when top of the line RTR models are not that much money. There is even an argument about whether some of the "blue box" kits even had a prototype. When I got into "serious" model railroading 25+ years ago and joined a local modular layout club, I would go to set-ups, look down the yard, and EVERY car had the same height to it. No longer is that case. Look at all the variations that we now have just in 40' boxcars. We can now get railroad-specific cabooses [and not just for the ATSF or PRR] in ready-to-run plastic when 25 years ago, you would be lucky if one might have available in brass. In locomotives how many want to go back to the wide body Athearn locomotives? Only the SW1500, SW1000, GP38-2, GP40-2, GP50, SD40-2 and SD40T-2 were scale width hood in the blue box line. What did you get for your $30? About six paint schemes with a single number per paint scheme. The locomotive featured stamped steel handrails, one size fits all horn and campfire in the cab lighting. Now DCC ready locomotives cost around $100 from the discount houses and blow the $30 Athearn blue box model out of the water. You pay more but are getting much more. That old blue box locomotive will still cost you about $30 to $40 in detail parts at today's prices if not more, so that blue box is now near the RTR price. Plus, even though I can custom paint, I can't paint and letter a model as well as the Chinese factory. Very true. Another model railroader/friend and I were talking about the old "Blue Box's" at a meet. Not only was the detail basic, the painting was sub-par (thickly applied, gaps around doors, an underframe in one color [black] even if the prototype had a grey or silver frame, etc.] $30-$40 in detail parts may be a bit low to bring a "Blue Box" locomotive up to what we see now in the R-T-R market. I probably put around $100 in on a P2K GP38-2 around the time that L-L was sold to Walthers. It had everything - new fans, new air-filter box, a high hood, a "thin-wall" cab, cab interior. Once it was painted and detailed, the new Genesis GP38-2 still looks better. There is also the time aspect involved, and that is hard to put a value to. As a husband and father to two small kids, time can be limited at times. Something is driving the RTR line of model railroading and its dollars. It seems more want to spend or don't seem to mind spending the bucks for these models in RTR form. If people weren't spending the cash, the manufacturers would be making kits, but as long as the people buy RTR and pay the prices, the manufacturers would be stupid not to continue to pump out product and rake in the profits. A friend and I were having this discussion about a decade ago, right as manufacturers really began pushing the R-T-R lines. The friend had a friend [since deceased] that was "connected" to the manufacturers. It was amazing to hear the increase of profits that manufacturers were seeing by making the kits in the US, sending them across the Pacific to be built, and sending them back across the Pacific to be sold. I'm sure some of the increased profits are being redirected into new and better products for us consumers. Despite all of this, I still enjoy tracking down kits to build. I guess it is the recovering armor modeler in me. Just last weekend, I picked up an old InterMountain 50' PS-1. I know full well that I will have to replace the roofwalk with a Kadee one, replace the air-hoses, and add the uncoupling levers when I build it. But, I enjoy that aspect of the hobby. My father, on the other hand, feels that Accurail kits are too complicated to build out of the box. Not surprisingly based on this thread, I enjoy Railroad Model Craftsman while he subscribes to Model Railroader. This leads back to the discussion about magazines. On the way down to a Railroad Prototype Modelers Meet last weekend, a friend and I were discussing MR vs. RMC and even the different philosophies of the publishers. I used to subscribe to Finescale Modeler [another Kalmbach Publishing Magazine], but I cannot think of the last time I even looked at an issue in the bookstore. To me, FSM is another example of what happens when you try to be all things to all people. The contents become so watered down, it's hard to find any value in them. The same thing goes for MR. Every year, you can almost expect a 6 month series on how to build a beginner's layout that is typically focused in the upper Midwest. In contrast, RMC is now running the Jim Kincaid plans. I've been in heaven over the plans on the GSC pulpwood rack [still have 5 Atlas cars to improve] and the SOU P-S boxcars [I'm tempted to scratch-build one of the C.G. cars since I have access to the correct decals for one]. James Bilbrey LaVergne, TN |
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