MR/RMC page count

[valenciajim]

I just returned from vacation and latest issues of Model Railroader and Railroad Model Craftsman were awaiting me. I was surprised to see that RMC had more pages than MR.

While at the NMRA convention, I listened to the Kalmbach presentation and to Steve Priest's presentation, each about the state of their respective publications. It is clear that RMC is doing a better job of adapting to the 21st century.

Also, I started watching the how-to videos produced by Model Railroad Hobbyist and IMHO they are definitely better than the ones done by Kalmbach.

[eh49]

Yes, White River has really done a miracle with RMC. Henry Carstens was running it into the ground.

[roadkill]

It's only my opinion (and if anyone doesn't like it, well tough ****) but MR has been garbage for years, again IMHO ever since that idiot Terry Thompson took over as editor. It's become very formulaic, and seemingly every atrical is written to cater to the lowest common denominator. AFAIAC Kalmblech can shut its doors and I wouldn't shed a tear.

[atsfan]

There is space for a good magazine.
I like Model Railroad news for example.
mR has been shrinking for a decade.
It is now like USA Today, so small and lacking content it is in the death spiral.
Lack of size and content cause people to drop it. Less subs mean they need to save costs.

Trains magazine though has gotten better at the same time.

Why? It has CONTENT.

[TA462]

Model Railroader has been declining for years. Their how to articles seem to simple to me and is to basic. Their pictures though are great. For years I use to pick up a few copies of MR and donate them to the schools and my doctors office every month. My way of giving back to the hobby. I stopped though at the end of this school year. I always told people MR was a great magazine to get you into the hobby because it was very simple and more geared towards new modellers but RMC was the magazine that kept you there because of their how to articles.

[Paul Cutler III]

The way the critics have talked, MR has been going downhill since at least WWII...perhaps earlier.

[emd16645]

I think MR fills an important role. It is a great magazine for beginners, shows a lot of simple things that people who may not have much experience can build a worthy layout or model.

Magazines like RMC I think are geared to a different crowd. It is intended not for the beginner modeler, but instead the veteran crowd who are interested in stepping up their game.

I've thought that MR has been slipping for the past several years, but in hindsight I think it really is something else. When I started reading MR, I was a beginner. Over the years, I've gained experience in this hobby, and consequently MR has lost relevancy to me. To me it seemed like MR was failing to be what it once was, but in fact, it was me that changed.

I have a suspicion that this may truly be the case to many people that frequent this forum. There are plenty of examples of work here that show expertise that even I have yet to achieve. So while MR may have lost relevancy to many here, it provides to an important element of our hobby.

That being said, if I'm grabbing just one magazine off the newer and this month, it would definitely be a RMC (although lately I've gotten both)

[markfj]

Whereas MR has limited and repetitive content, RMC goes in the opposite direction with “maybe” to much info on too few topics (you know the saying “an inch wide and a mile deep”). Yes, RMC is the hands down winner between the two, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t room for some improvement.


My MR subscription lapsed over a year ago and while I had some separation anxiety at first, I have no regrets now. If fact, the last issue I saw over the summer wasn’t that great…yet another Pelle Soeborg article. Hey, he’s a great modeler, but not the “only” great modeler. I wonder how many articles from relatively unknown, but good modelers get bumped to make room for a Soeborg rehashed scenery or weathering article.


No thanks MR, I’ll keep my money and get my kicks (and modeling info) else ware.


Of course if I want an honest, unbiased, never any disagreement on the matter, modeling discussion, I come right here to good ol’ TARF!


Mark

[TA462]

Sept 15, 2015 9:06:30 GMT -8 emd16645 said:

I think MR fills an important role. It is a great magazine for beginners, shows a lot of simple things that people who may not have much experience can build a worthy layout or model.

Magazines like RMC I think are geared to a different crowd. It is intended not for the beginner modeler, but instead the veteran crowd who are interested in stepping up their game.

I've thought that MR has been slipping for the past several years, but in hindsight I think it really is something else. When I started reading MR, I was a beginner. Over the years, I've gained experience in this hobby, and consequently MR has lost relevancy to me. To me it seemed like MR was failing to be what it once was, but in fact, it was me that changed.

I have a suspicion that this may truly be the case to many people that frequent this forum. There are plenty of examples of work here that show expertise that even I have yet to achieve. So while MR may have lost relevancy to many here, it provides to an important element of our hobby.

That being said, if I'm grabbing just one magazine off the newer and this month, it would definitely be a RMC (although lately I've gotten both)

It's the same way with forums as well. Some people grow tired of the same boring thing while checking into their favorite model train forum and eventually get tired and move on. That is why a lot of great modellers have left the Model Railroader forum and moved on to either start their own or sign up to more advanced forums with less of the side show antics that the MR forum has.

[tdspeedracer]

The real problem with any magazine is if they do an in depth article on a specified loco or car, they've lost 75-99.9% of the subscribers interest. If you're lucky enough to have it fall into something you're interested in it's great, but after you narrow down railroad, era, and location and you have a pretty small window. The last magazine articles on a specific thing that I was interested in actually modeling was the Bontrager(spelling?) articles in RMJ on BN & JB Hunt intermodal back in the mid 90's.

As for relevance, I think Chris nailed most it above, but some of what we were used to seeing in MR is now completely irrelevant. How many SD40-2 articles did we see back in the day on how to model variations and make them road specific?? 25 years later, how many SD70Ace articles do we see now that they come with the variations and road specific details from the factory?

Trevor

[riogrande]

Sept 15, 2015 9:06:30 GMT -8 emd16645 said:

I think MR fills an important role. It is a great magazine for beginners, shows a lot of simple things that people who may not have much experience can build a worthy layout or model.

Magazines like RMC I think are geared to a different crowd. It is intended not for the beginner modeler, but instead the veteran crowd who are interested in stepping up their game.

I've thought that MR has been slipping for the past several years, but in hindsight I think it really is something else. When I started reading MR, I was a beginner. Over the years, I've gained experience in this hobby, and consequently MR has lost relevancy to me. To me it seemed like MR was failing to be what it once was, but in fact, it was me that changed.

I think you said it very well. In my earlier years, I used to love Model Railroader magazine and eat it up every issue. Over the years as I learned more and became more learned, my interests "matured", so I shifted from favoring MR to enjoying several other magzines the most - mainly Model Railroading and Rail Model Journal. I still read MR and still do enjoy it on a level, but it was the other magazines which satisified me the most. MR seems to be aimed at bringing people into the hobby (which is much needed) so the presentation seems geared to that - to be a draw, milk to babes, lots of advanced beginner and intermediate content woven in. Perhaps there is a little less advanced stuff than their used to be? It tries to be all things to many (not all) people so it's not going to fully satisfy advanced modelers.

Carstens Rail Model Craftsman generally didn't, on the average, have articles that interested me - and included lots of prototype based articles that bored me, and there was always that tin plate section. There were sometimes however, very excellent in-depth articles in RMC that far exceeded what MR ever did and I have a number of copies I have kept and treasured for them, such as the 2 part article on Trailer Train Corp, or the article on Pacific Fruit Express, and many others. So sometimes they could really knock one out of the ball park, but much of the time many of the issues didn't have much for me.

Now I am looking forward to seeing what White River and the new gang have done to RMC - I just haven't had the chance to lay eye's on any issues yet. I thought the local library carried it but nope, only MR. There are no hobby shops in my area to sample it either - so maybe I'll have to put it on my to-do list to check the next train show as surely there will be copies present there.

[riogrande]

Sept 16, 2015 5:56:25 GMT -8 TA462 said:

It's the same way with forums as well. Some people grow tired of the same boring thing while checking into their favorite model train forum and eventually get tired and move on. That is why a lot of great modellers have left the Model Railroader forum and moved on to either start their own or sign up to more advanced forums with less of the side show antics that the MR forum has.

There does seem to be some regulars at MR forums who appear, by the nature of the topics they start, that they are perpetually bored. One could almost say they are baiting the readers to react. To use a British term, it seems some topics are artfully crafted to "take the mickey" out of the readers (meaning the reader is being mocked, but in a very subtle way).

One recent topic at MR relates to this discussion on magazines, where a member suggested MR needed to create an advanced forum area because he was tired of reading noob topics. Sound familiar? He was disatisfied with the forum content basically but rather than move on to a forum where the topics are mostly non-beginner, he wanted MR forums to cater to his needs and alter the forum format or add an advanced section. The better solution is to move on to places which suite ones tastes and be a happier person for it, rather than stay in a place that does not have pleasing content. It's like living in a place you hate and are constantly complaining and making everyone around you miserable in the process; that's not a sensible way to continue existing. Rather take responsibility for your own happiness and destiny and initiate a change for the better!

Anyway, magazines can be like that too. Lots of people express unhappiness with MR magazine and moan about it ad-nauseum. Is the complaining going to change it? Maybe not. Instead, why not choose a positive attitude and be upbeat, and leave things which are not pleasing behind and focus your energies on things which edify, and add to your quality of life. If RMC is that magazine, choose it, move on and by a happier person for it. [/philosopher]

[emd16645]

Sept 18, 2015 3:57:16 GMT -8 riogrande said:

Now I am looking forward to seeing what White River and the new gang have done to RMC - I just haven't had the chance to lay eye's on any issues yet. I thought the local library carried it but nope, only MR. There are no hobby shops in my area to sample it either - so maybe I'll have to put it on my to-do list to check the next train show as surely there will be copies present there.

Surprisingly, I found that the grocery store in my town carries RMC (and MR). I would expect book stores like Barnes and Noble would carry it as well. Keep your eyes open and you may be surprised as well.

[Christian]

Sept 18, 2015 4:57:50 GMT -8 emd16645 said:

Sept 18, 2015 3:57:16 GMT -8 riogrande said:

I thought the local library carried it but nope, only MR. There are no hobby shops in my area to sample it either

Surprisingly, I found that the grocery store in my town carries RMC (and MR). I would expect book stores like Barnes and Noble would carry it as well. Keep your eyes open and you may be surprised as well.

Wegmans - Gainsville and Fairfax. I buy at Gainsville, and assume Fairfax carries it. There are train stores near intersection of Sudley Rd and I66 as well as in Chantilly. I've been to neither and their websites show a lot of tinplate and collectibles.

[riogrande]

Thanks, helps to know where copies can be found. In practacle terms, it's more of a convenience thing - if my wife and I happen to be at a place and I take the time to check on it, or if I can remember when I'm there.

Christian, I didn't know there was a train store at Sudley& I66 - I became aware of the train store in Chantilly just east of the small Walmart (smallmart) and Post Office a few months back and have visited a couple times - not much there for HO folks unless you need some flex track on short notice. Seems they cater mostly to the Lionel / large scale crowd and have some older inventory of HO/N upstairs.

[atsfan]

I am always amazed at the small train stores focused on Lionel
Either there are high margins in that or the market is bigger that it appears

[atsfan]

Sept 15, 2015 8:54:41 GMT -8 Paul Cutler III said:

The way the critics have talked, MR has been going downhill since at least WWII...perhaps earlier.

In terms of page count and subscribers that last 15 years have seen it decline in half.

[Deleted]

Before White River picked up RMC, I'd buy one or two issues per year at a hobby shop or bookseller. Maybe one MR a year. But I subscribed to the New RMC and am pretty happy with it. I'll only pick up a MR if there is an article I specifically want to reference. MR has been too "beginner oriented" for years.

[Spikre]

James,
You may be looking in the wrong place in Barnes & Noble.
the Prototype Mags are under the Car mags by the Plane mags.
the Model mags are a couple of racks over by the Coin mags,
Die Cast Collectors mags,Hot Wheels Collectors mags,etc.
at least the area stores around here.
Books A Million also carries some Model Mags,but they put them
with Proto Mags here.they also carry Model RR News which B&N
doesn't seem to regularly carry.
neither store carries Diesel Era here.
some Wal-Marts around here carry MR,but RMC is hit and miss.
some Krogers carry MR,but not always RMC,but may carry it in the
Winter,each store seems different down here.
Happy Hunting !!
Spikre

[The Ferro Kid]

Sept 18, 2015 9:49:13 GMT -8 Spikre said:

James,
You may be looking in the wrong place in Barnes & Noble.
the Prototype Mags are under the Car mags by the Plane mags.
the Model mags are a couple of racks over by the Coin mags,
Die Cast Collectors mags,Hot Wheels Collectors mags,etc.
at least the area stores around here. SNIP

Same display pattern observed in the Barnes & Noble stores out here in Colorado. Would add that they "feature" a selection of magazines by giving certain ones a turn out on the more prominent end racks, so if I'm not finding something I've learned to look high and low and inbetween and not just its usual location. Have occasionally seen Model Railroader in a Safeway supermarket, but haven't looked in awhile.

[Paul Cutler III]

atsfan,
All printed periodicals are hurting. MR's woes echo the industry.

What I always find fascinating in these anti-MR threads is that many people want MR to be more like RMC. Well, since MR has far more subscribers than RMC (and always has), this makes no sense. Seriously, if you owned a company that was No. 1 in it's market, would you try to be more like your competitor, who is not only ranked No. 2, but may have only 20%-25% of your sales? If anything, RMC should be more like MR if they want to survive (and to some extent, the new RMC is moving that way with better paper, pictures and writing).

MR is the gateway to our hobby and serves the beginner and lower-skilled modelers. Like every hobby, those who have lessor skills are more numerous than the highly skilled, and there's more money to be made serving a greater number of newbies than the hard core masters of the craft.

[grahamline]

MR has improved a great deal under Neil B. Rather than counting pages -- how much of the fat '70s magazines was advertising? -- count the feature articles and columns. There's much less change in that area than in the ad lineage, and part of the loss was taken in some columns that had pretty well run their course. Even so, MR could run more challenging articles from time to time to help the beginners up to the next step.

[valenciajim]

Sept 18, 2015 18:50:55 GMT -8 Paul Cutler III said:

atsfan,
All printed periodicals are hurting. MR's woes echo the industry.

What I always find fascinating in these anti-MR threads is that many people want MR to be more like RMC. Well, since MR has far more subscribers than RMC (and always has), this makes no sense. Seriously, if you owned a company that was No. 1 in it's market, would you try to be more like your competitor, who is not only ranked No. 2, but may have only 20%-25% of your sales? If anything, RMC should be more like MR if they want to survive (and to some extent, the new RMC is moving that way with better paper, pictures and writing).

MR is the gateway to our hobby and serves the beginner and lower-skilled modelers. Like every hobby, those who have lessor skills are more numerous than the highly skilled, and there's more money to be made serving a greater number of newbies than the hard core masters of the craft.

Paul,

I did not mean this to be an anti-MR thread. MR is still a great magazine, and for many it is the gateway to the hobby. My point was about the resurgence of RMC.

But, in response to your comments, it seems to me that MR is mired in a bricks and mortar approach when we live in a digital age. On the other hand, RMC and Model Railroad Hobbyist are clearly moving into the 21st Century. RMC has no offices. They operate essentially out of Steven Priest's basement. The Priest family coordinates a number of workers who also work out of their own houses in different geographic regions. Steve has hired a number of qualified people to produce the magazine at probably a fraction of what it costs to produce Model Railroader. Also, when you think about it, if you want to work for MR, you have to move to Milwaukee.  If you want to work for RMC or MRC, you can work from your own home--regardless of where you live.  So tell me, who is going to end up with the better talent in the future? 

MR and RMC are two entirely different magazines. MR is aimed at entry level hobbyists while RMC is aimed more closely at the experienced hobbyist. RMC is redirecting what it does, rather than to be second rate MR as it was under the Carstens regime.

RMC has gotten larger (i.e., larger page count) because it has more advertising. That means they are putting together a product that has more appeal to advertisers who are paying the freight. At the recent NMRA convention, both MR and RMC said that they have a certain number of pages allotted for articles and the rest of the thickness of the magazine is devoted to ads. The more ads that are sold, the more content they can deliver. In the 1980's and 1990's the mail order houses filled the magazines with ads. Today all of that is done on-line.

It is interesting that MRH has attracted many people who used to appear regularly in MR.  I suspect that MRH does not have huge bricks and mortar offices.  Its digital only format probably means lower production costs. When you look at their video productions and compare them to MR's video productions, the MRH videos are more informative, are more entertaining and are aimed at a younger audience. Furthermore, MRH has done a better job of balancing the needs of the entry level hobbyist with those of more experienced modelers. The younger generation gets its information increasingly from digital media, rather than from print magazine. So in this way, MR needs to be more like its competitor who is a fraction of its size.

Sears was No.1 in its market for nearly a century, but today it struggles to survive because it could not adapt to new competitors who were, at one time, small in comparison to it. I think as the next generation of newbies arrives, it will be clear that MRH will be formidable competition for MR. RMC is trying to figure out where it fits in. I recently retired after spending 40+ years with a Big 4 accounting firm.  During my career, one consistent theme was if a company does not reinvent itself regularly to keep up with the times, it was doomed.  I think MR understands this, but it is tough to effectively reinvent yourself when you are weighted down with a bricks and mortar infrastructure causing you to be not as nimble in fully responding to competitive pressures.

Personally, I hope that all the magazines enjoy success as that is best for the consumer.

Regards,

Jim

[atsfan]

I for one am not anti MR.
Although I don't subscribe.
I did recently buy all of MR 2014 for $5 at a train show and have enjoyed scanning them.
I purchased the August RMC at retail and it is a much improved magazine.

MR will have to adapt. There is no way they can keep the huge staff in Milwaukee.

I dint get the MR since it was in a plastic bag and I could,not scan it first.

[umtrrauthor]

Selected Wegmans up here in Western New York carry MR and RMC, as well as Railfan & Railroad and Classic Trains. Selection varies by store, mostly given the space allotted to the magazine section.

As for MR-- a couple of my friends were ready to throw up the next time they saw a "Beer Line" feature-- so much so that, of course, I made them "Beer Line" cars. The October 2015 issue includes another article on the Layout Design Element, with Neil B. commenting that "...it's an idea worth repeating." My opinion: not so much. But that makes one of me, I suppose.

As a general comment, I will start throwing things if I see one more piece anywhere about how to use my smartphone to operate my layout.

One recent topic at MR relates to this discussion on magazines, where a member suggested MR needed to create an advanced forum area because he was tired of reading noob topics. Sound familiar? He was disatisfied with the forum content basically but rather than move on to a forum where the topics are mostly non-beginner, he wanted MR forums to cater to his needs and alter the forum format or add an advanced section. The better solution is to move on to places which suite ones tastes and be a happier person for it, rather than stay in a place that does not have pleasing content. It's like living in a place you hate and are constantly complaining and making everyone around you miserable in the process; that's not a sensible way to continue existing. Rather take responsibility for your own happiness and destiny and initiate a change for the better!

This is the Principle of Self-Selection. But, the Eternally Unsatisfied complain, it's so much more fun to complain-- then you don't have to do anything!

[pacbelt]

I feel a big problem also, is that the hobby is losing MODEL railroaders...
I hate to sound like an old fart, but we the hobbyists, have turned this into a detailed out of the box, overpriced, RTR world.

The end of the blue box, was the beginning of the end.
I'm not ready to put the final nail in yet. In fact, in our Google+ group, we ENCOURAGE the young guys to BUILD models! We're even running a detailing contest right now!

We got the idea, looking into a sister hobby, 1/24 & 1/25 scale model cars...
The young guys & girls are BUILDING models! Heavy customizing *TOO*!
So they KNOW how.

We NEED to get back to building our trains and detailing, scratchbuilding and the like.
The kids (and executive noobs!), FORGOT the satisfaction and enjoyment of it...

And that may give the magazines REASON to get back to better, more useful articles!

[Christian]

Sept 21, 2015 16:34:24 GMT -8 umtrrauthor said:

As a general comment, I will start throwing things if I see one more piece anywhere about how to use my smartphone to operate my layout.

And the choir exclaimed "AMEN!"

[Paul Cutler III]

Jim,
Or, the main reason why RMC's page count has increased may be due to a much cheaper advertising rate under the new publisher. I know that MR's ads are very expensive, but with largest magazine sales in the hobby, apparently they feel they deserve it. Perhaps RMC is taking the volume over individual cost approach to ads?

pacbelt,
I like the name (hey, it's my initials!).

If RTR is the death of the hobby and building kits is the only way to increase participation, then why did Lionel do so well in the 1950's? Why did so many old time model railroaders get their start with Lionel, the RTR kings?

Perhaps instead of spending hours putting together fussy kits (like old metal Athearn kits, LaBelle & Ambroid wood kits, etc.), modelers are doing other things, like building structures, doing scenery, weathering RTR models, wiring up DCC/Sound installations, and running operation sessions. Not every model railroader has to build kits to be satisfied in our hobby.

[atsfan]

MR's reviews have improved slightly since they switched over to new writers for them.
Still nowhere near as good as Model Railroad News, but slightly improved.

Interestingly MR used to have more hard core modeling articles such as paint shop etc.
That was dropped some time ago.

Kalmbach also seems focused on books and special editions. Some of those are pretty good in
the Trains (not MR) area.

[mlehman]

Sept 22, 2015 2:10:32 GMT -8 Christian said:

Sept 21, 2015 16:34:24 GMT -8 umtrrauthor said:

As a general comment, I will start throwing things if I see one more piece anywhere about how to use my smartphone to operate my layout.

And the choir exclaimed "AMEN!"

Smartphone? What's that? I've heard of them, but seems like something I'd avoid like the plague.

Cool, cheap, internet-enabled new wireless throttles?

Yeah, I'm all for that, especially when my wife hands me free, new raw material whenever she upgrades that whatchamacallit. I'm rather computer ignorant, but I can figure this out, as well as the fact that free is about $150 cheaper than a new radio throttle.

There's just too much inexpensive old-school stuff out there for me to worry about RTR and the price of the latest and greatest. If you've bought a car in recent decades, you know the story. New is way expensive. Decent used a great value and likely to still outlast the length of the loan needed to pay for it. Kids understand that, so I don't expect that to be a show-stopper for those with a genuine interest in the hobby.

This is where the magazines continue to remain relevant. They show you want you can do with all that older stuff, as well as explaining the new, not just for kids, but all of us, especially those who've been away from the hobby a few decades and returned to it, as many of us do. I certainly agree with those who've mentioned the improvements under Neil B's editorship. There's even drawings and build articles again making regular appearances. Haven't had the pleasure of quality time with the new RMC yet, but all I've heard sounds good to me and they are in good hands at White River Publications, so am looking forward to seeing it.