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Post by markfj on Oct 19, 2015 10:41:28 GMT -8
Hello Group, Rough new for this railroad town in Tennessee: CSX closure ends more than 100 years of railroad operations in Erwin, 10-15-15I’m not familiar with the historical significance of this rail yard, but I empathize with those that lost their jobs last week. Loss of a job is never easy for the individual, their family or the community, but this was a really big “hit” for the area. The comments at the end of the article make for some interesting reading. What are your thoughts or opinions on this closure? Thanks, Mark |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2015 10:59:41 GMT -8
It sounds like a case of "it is what it is". I can imagine more closures will happen across the country as coal for the past couple of years has been on the decline. A lot of mines that have been open for many decades are starting to dry up. Sounds like the town is going to buy the land off CSX and do something with it. If they can and do, it could open more jobs and businesses. It's like the good old saying, "nothing lasts forever". At least they let the employees bid on other jobs. Most companies don't do that.
As for the comments, they seem to all be political from what I've seen. Lots of rhetoric and other ignorant junk.
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Post by upcsx on Oct 19, 2015 12:19:44 GMT -8
Wonder if the town will try to find Mary the elephant that was hanged with a RR crane and buried in the yard somewhere.
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Post by atsfan on Oct 19, 2015 12:26:55 GMT -8
It sounds like a case of "it is what it is". I can imagine more closures will happen across the country as coal for the past couple of years has been on the decline. A lot of mines that have been open for many decades are starting to dry up. Sounds like the town is going to buy the land off CSX and do something with it. If they can and do, it could open more jobs and businesses. It's like the good old saying, "nothing lasts forever". At least they let the employees bid on other jobs. Most companies don't do that. As for the comments, they seem to all be political from what I've seen. Lots of rhetoric and other ignorant junk. It isnt rhetoric or ignorant junk. Simply facts that the coal is under full assault by the current administration as they themselves have publicly declared. This closing is one fall out from that. Political? Of course. Everything in the entire USA nowadays is political. |
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Post by upcsx on Oct 19, 2015 12:49:26 GMT -8
atsfan 110& true.
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Post by Spikre on Oct 19, 2015 12:57:53 GMT -8
 believe this was the Main Clinchfield Yard and Shops for years. but like its been said,try finding a Coal train on the ex C&O James River line,they run,but not like they used to. how much carbon does Air Force 1 spew in an hour ? but that's Good Carbon,not bad Coal Carbon. Spikre 
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Post by fr8kar on Oct 19, 2015 15:10:48 GMT -8
I'm not familiar with any seniority districts on CSX properties, but I'd guess that the craft employees will have an opportunity to exercise their seniority elsewhere on the system or in the region. That's just how railroads go.
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Post by curtmc on Oct 19, 2015 20:01:23 GMT -8
Erwin was the heart of the Clinchfield RR... A very sad day...
This is what happens when Maximizing Profits is #1 and caring about people/employees is way below #2...
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Post by atsfan on Oct 20, 2015 3:58:05 GMT -8
Erwin was the heart of the Clinchfield RR... A very sad day... This is what happens when Maximizing Profits is #1 and caring about people/employees is way below #2... CSX wouldnt do that would,they? |
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Post by valenciajim on Oct 20, 2015 7:37:09 GMT -8
If CSX is hauling less coal, then these closings are the consequence of that. As atsfan said, this is purely political. In CA we have no coal fired power plants, but I would expect coal producing regions to see rough seas ahead.
When I went to the NMRA convention in Milwaukee in 2007, I went on a layout tour in the Green Bay area. There were so many paper mills that closed down because we are all going green and paperless. The coal situation reminds me of that.
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Post by sp8299 on Oct 20, 2015 9:17:30 GMT -8
It sounds like a case of "it is what it is". I can imagine more closures will happen across the country as coal for the past couple of years has been on the decline. A lot of mines that have been open for many decades are starting to dry up. Sounds like the town is going to buy the land off CSX and do something with it. If they can and do, it could open more jobs and businesses. It's like the good old saying, "nothing lasts forever". At least they let the employees bid on other jobs. Most companies don't do that. As for the comments, they seem to all be political from what I've seen. Lots of rhetoric and other ignorant junk. It isnt rhetoric or ignorant junk. Simply facts that the coal is under full assault by the current administration as they themselves have publicly declared. This closing is one fall out from that. Political? Of course. Everything in the entire USA nowadays is political. You're totally overlooking the fact coal has been declining in large part to the lower price of natural gas, making it a cheaper and more environmentally friendly alternative for energy production, but hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good rant. |
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Post by atsfan on Oct 20, 2015 10:11:18 GMT -8
It isnt rhetoric or ignorant junk. Simply facts that the coal is under full assault by the current administration as they themselves have publicly declared. This closing is one fall out from that. Political? Of course. Everything in the entire USA nowadays is political. You're totally overlooking the fact coal has been declining in large part to the lower price of natural gas, making it a cheaper and more environmentally friendly alternative for energy production, but hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good rant. You're totally overlooking the fact that coal has been declining in large part due to the EPA imposing crippling new regulations that make using coal more expensive than natural gas. You need to get your facts straight. And you aren't ranting? You are if I am. You said all we need to know about yourself by saying "more environmentally friendly". That is your tell that you are part of the movement. But hey, don't that that get in the way of a good rant. |
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Post by theengineshed on Oct 20, 2015 15:08:13 GMT -8
As for the comments, they seem to all be political from what I've seen. Lots of rhetoric and other ignorant junk. It isnt rhetoric or ignorant junk. Simply facts that the coal is under full assault by the current administration as they themselves have publicly declared. This closing is one fall out from that. Political? Of course. Everything in the entire USA nowadays is political. If you dig a little deeper than the political rhetoric, it is all about the capacity factor. There's more to this than Green Peace and Faux News. There is a reason power companies aren't investing in coal fired plants, an economic reason. We expect a return on investment, the shift from coal is a business decision, and this Bloomberg Business article describes what is going on quite well. It has never made less sense to build fossil fuel power plants.I'm sorry to hear about the individuals in Erwin who will lose their jobs. |
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Post by atsfan on Oct 21, 2015 11:46:55 GMT -8
It isnt rhetoric or ignorant junk. Simply facts that the coal is under full assault by the current administration as they themselves have publicly declared. This closing is one fall out from that. Political? Of course. Everything in the entire USA nowadays is political. If you dig a little deeper than the political rhetoric, it is all about the capacity factor. There's more to this than Green Peace and Faux News. There is a reason power companies aren't investing in coal fired plants, an economic reason. We expect a return on investment, the shift from coal is a business decision, and this Bloomberg Business article describes what is going on quite well. It has never made less sense to build fossil fuel power plants.I'm sorry to hear about the individuals in Erwin who will lose their jobs. Nobody is talking about building new ones (China is though) It is the closing or conversion of existing coal plants due to new administration rules That is how their aims are being met The people implementing the rules could not care less about Erwin. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2015 12:15:51 GMT -8
On top of all of this CSX yesterday shut down the locomotive shop,car shop, and service center in Corbin,Ky effectively ending the jobs of 180 people. The yard itself will stay open for now, but who knows how long that will be. Almost 500 people unemployed in about a weeks time. What's next:CSX's mountain sub or Norfolk Southern starts knocking off coal lines as well. Again who knows.
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Post by theengineshed on Oct 21, 2015 15:04:43 GMT -8
Nobody is talking about building new ones It is the closing or conversion of existing coal plants due to new administration rules That is how their aims are being met The people implementing the rules could not care less about Erwin. You just don't get it, you can blame the Administration till you turn purple, but exports are way down. "Administration rules" are not closing the plants that use exported coal. Coal exports from Virginia taking steep declineSorry to hear about Corbin, and those individuals who have lost their jobs. You have to wonder if we are going to see something similar on the Norfolk Southern side in the very near future. Would not surprise me if we start to see older locomotives being retired as well... |
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Post by atsfan on Oct 21, 2015 16:08:43 GMT -8
You just don't get it You are clearly in the anti coal gang so you refuse to see the facts because they get in the way of your agenda. Nobody is talking about building new ones It is the closing or conversion of existing coal plants due to new administration rules That is how their aims are being met The people implementing the rules could not care less about Erwin. You just don't get it, you can blame the Administration till you turn purple, but exports are way down. "Administration rules" are not closing the plants that use exported coal. Coal exports from Virginia taking steep declineSorry to hear about Corbin, and those individuals who have lost their jobs. You have to wonder if we are going to see something similar on the Norfolk Southern side in the very near future. Would not surprise me if we start to see older locomotives being retired as well... |
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Oct 21, 2015 16:46:22 GMT -8
Erwin was the heart of the Clinchfield RR... A very sad day... This is what happens when Maximizing Profits is #1 and caring about people/employees is way below #2... Isn't that the purpose of businesses? Make money for their stockholders. Close operations that aren't making money and tighten the belt or move in a different direction. Anything less would be dishonest to the stockholders. A lot of buggy whip folks went down the tubes at one time too. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2015 18:33:16 GMT -8
You just don't get it You are clearly in the anti coal gang so you refuse to see the facts because they get in the way of your agenda. You just don't get it, you can blame the Administration till you turn purple, but exports are way down. "Administration rules" are not closing the plants that use exported coal. Coal exports from Virginia taking steep declineSorry to hear about Corbin, and those individuals who have lost their jobs. You have to wonder if we are going to see something similar on the Norfolk Southern side in the very near future. Would not surprise me if we start to see older locomotives being retired as well... So atsfan, if anyone disagrees with you, they are anti coal? So everything is this enormous government conspiracy to phase out coal? I mean come on. Coal production is down, mines are drying up, export is down, etc etc. If you wanna say it's the the US governments fault that coal exports are down, then what about the German government who have gone all solar and wind power? Shouldn't they be at fault to? Is coal in your mind some magical unlimited resource that never dries up or something? I'd really like you to explain your position instead of quoting people and posting 1 liners that refute nothing. |
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Post by riogrande on Oct 22, 2015 1:51:00 GMT -8
This reminds me of where my wife comes from in northern England. A similar thing happened there in the 1980's where coal mines were shut down and the coal industry was a MAJOR employer up near Newcastle (land of Ridley Scott and Sting). From what I understand, the coal mines just weren't profitable anymore so they were closed down - major strikes. From the UK wiki on the subject:
It seems the coal industry in the UK at that time was government run and subsidised and it got to the point where basically it was costing the tax payer to keep it going - in a way, coal mining for many was a bit like "workfair" and it didn't make sense economically to keep it going. There were bitter strikes in the early-mid 1980's. If you see the movie "Billy Elliott", that is set in those times in northern England and depicts the city and life where my wife grew up. I bring this up because a failing inudstry isn't necessarily a result of "politics". At least in England, it would have been politics that maintained an unprofitable industry - but ultimately economic realities forced it to be reduced and unprofitable mines closed.
As for this thread, there seems to be a chicken & egg thing going on here - some blame politics and environmental agenda while others state basic economics. At least in England, most of their decline happened before environmental movements or clean energy policies. Obviously in the past 10-20 years, environmental policies have affected things but it's not always pure and simple - there ARE still economics at play. Likely there is some of both - but which has the biggest effect - I suppose that is something that won't be solved here it appears by a polarization of sides.
I'm a geologist by education (B.S. & M.S.) and much of my employment or lack there-of has been victim of economic vagaries and I've had to retrain and switch careers. There are many examples of changes where people are affected and it's tough, no doubt about it. With the large migration of commerce switching from physical retail stores to online vendors, shopping malls are closing, obviously it's affecting our hobby with the LHS closings accelerating (unless they have a good online presence).
Getting back to my background, much of my work in the 90's was environmental related - cleaning up contaminated soil, groundwater etc. Things affected by RECRA and many other policies enacted in the 1970's and 1980's which were good things. I grew up seeing bad smog in Los Angeles, and many other impacts of poor management of wastes etc. So much of what has been done really was necessary at the time. Many countries overseas are facing what we faced in the 1950's and 1960's in terms of their situations. Obviously environmental regulation is a necessary thing, but it's the "how much" thats a thorny issue. But I digress...
Back to Erwin ... It is tough for people who are firmly anchored to a city or region that fails to recover and those in Erwin may be faced with that if there isn't some economic engine that can replace the closesures. It definitely helps if you are willing and able to move to a place with better work opportunities. Thats why I have moved in many cases - because I needed to get out of an economically depressed area to find work. Hopefully the people in Erwin will be able to find work, some may be forced to do what I did and move. Either way, it's trying times for them and bad news for sure. I just read about something similar in England; there are steel mills making major cuts - thousands will lose jobs. Cheap steel being made overseas is driving that just as it has here.
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Oct 22, 2015 6:49:59 GMT -8
Getting back to my background, much of my work in the 90's was environmental related - cleaning up contaminated soil, groundwater etc. Things affected by RECRA and many other policies enacted in the 1970's and 1980's which were good things. I grew up seeing bad smog in Los Angeles, and many other impacts of poor management of wastes etc. So much of what has been done really was necessary at the time. Many countries overseas are facing what we faced in the 1950's and 1960's in terms of their situations. Obviously environmental regulation is a necessary thing, but it's the "how much" thats a thorny issue. But I digress... Things are pretty dramatically cleaned up from the mid 20th century when people began to take attention to the environment. Now we have all these big agencies with big budgets and tons of folks educated in the newer environmental programs that do what they can to keep their jobs viable. Doesn't matter to them who loses their jobs, they're probably uneducated rubes anyhow, as long as they keep their budgets flowing. You'll never see agencies closed down or their budgets redirected simply because they've clean the place up. It almost encroaches on the State Sponsored Religion as the environmental 'movement' has become like a religion to some zealots and false prophets. |
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Post by riogrande on Oct 22, 2015 7:41:25 GMT -8
Karl, there are definitely government agencies which end up in a cycle of existing to service themselves rather than the greater. good. How do you keep them accountable and hold their feet to the fire is the trick I guess - to make sure they and their budgets are truly justified rather than just something as job security. When I moved to the DC area to find work, I did try to leverage my education as a geologist including seeking work with various agencies such as the USGS, USDA, EPA etc. The only real contact I had was an informational interview I managed to set up with a guy from the EPA. My impression was that they had cut back some but I don't really know much other than the way to get jobs in government is to start out looking as a gov employee or ex-military - they get a major leg up on the point system used to put you on the top of the stack for interviews; that and knowing someone. The other way in is to be a government contractor and be in the right spot when they are hiring. The agency I've been working for has basically had a hiring freeze since around 2011, although I think I did see one person transition from contractor to civilian in the past year so maybe thats slowly changing.
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Post by atsfan on Oct 22, 2015 12:24:50 GMT -8
Getting back to my background, much of my work in the 90's was environmental related - cleaning up contaminated soil, groundwater etc. Things affected by RECRA and many other policies enacted in the 1970's and 1980's which were good things. I grew up seeing bad smog in Los Angeles, and many other impacts of poor management of wastes etc. So much of what has been done really was necessary at the time. Many countries overseas are facing what we faced in the 1950's and 1960's in terms of their situations. Obviously environmental regulation is a necessary thing, but it's the "how much" thats a thorny issue. But I digress... Things are pretty dramatically cleaned up from the mid 20th century when people began to take attention to the environment. Now we have all these big agencies with big budgets and tons of folks educated in the newer environmental programs that do what they can to keep their jobs viable. Doesn't matter to them who loses their jobs, they're probably uneducated rubes anyhow, as long as they keep their budgets flowing. You'll never see agencies closed down or their budgets redirected simply because they've clean the place up. It almost encroaches on the State Sponsored Religion as the environmental 'movement' has become like a religion to some zealots and false prophets. My recent plywood purchase showed it was from.....China! It so happened the lumber distributor was at the lumber yard (not Home Depot etc) and said they had closed their Alabama and Louisiana Plywood plants in 2013 due to high costs of new EPA rules on glue, runoff, and "smog". Also ACA mandates and new OSHA rules about gluing. So to avoid them they started importing plywood from China. I am sure some people where laid off but they don't count. It is shipped in containers he said. Major lumber company you have heard of. I won't name it. The plywood was at least as good as I recall though, and $1 less per sheet. So the government mandating jobs overseas has that going for it. |
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Post by fr8kar on Oct 22, 2015 15:04:04 GMT -8
Wow, how quickly some people forget. Without some kind of oversight or requirement to dispose of waste properly, no company is going to do it voluntarily. It's cheaper just to dump it somewhere nobody cares about, even if that's in a low lying area on the company's property. Nevermind that the pollution can travel downwind or downstream or can be consumed by fish and wildlife in the area which may provide food for people. The drinking water may become contaminated.
This isn't some fantastical dystopian nightmare I'm describing, it's a certain result of a pervasive method of doing business that answers only to a bottom line. It has resulted in polluted sites large and small. Some sites are so bad they are uninhabitable and whole towns have to be abandoned (see Picher, Oklahoma or Love Canal, New York). Some of these badly polluted sites have been abandoned by their owners and left to the taxpayer to clean up. These are known as superfund sites named after the law that funds their cleanup. There are currently over 1300 of these sites in the United States.
Believe all you want that most corporations will do what's right and dispose of waste properly. Or that pollution isn't really a problem, it's just a made-up issue so people can justify their unimportant jobs or inflated agency budgets. I would invite you to put your money where your mouth is and visit any of the superfund sites that haven't been mitigated yet. Or read about their effects. Or talk to any of their inhabitants.
How much pollution in your drinking water is acceptable to you? If 5 parts per million causes cancer and there are over 100 parts per million of an odorless, tasteless toxic substance in your water, is that okay? You can't see it, so it's not there, right?
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Post by atsfan on Oct 22, 2015 16:28:17 GMT -8
Wow, how quickly some people forget. Without some kind of oversight or requirement to dispose of waste properly, no company is going to do it voluntarily. It's cheaper just to dump it somewhere nobody cares about, even if that's in a low lying area on the company's property. Nevermind that the pollution can travel downwind or downstream or can be consumed by fish and wildlife in the area which may provide food for people. The drinking water may become contaminated. This isn't some fantastical dystopian nightmare I'm describing, it's a certain result of a pervasive method of doing business that answers only to a bottom line. It has resulted in polluted sites large and small. Some sites are so bad they are uninhabitable and whole towns have to be abandoned (see Picher, Oklahoma or Love Canal, New York). Some of these badly polluted sites have been abandoned by their owners and left to the taxpayer to clean up. These are known as superfund sites named after the law that funds their cleanup. There are currently over 1300 of these sites in the United States. Believe all you want that most corporations will do what's right and dispose of waste properly. Or that pollution isn't really a problem, it's just a made-up issue so people can justify their unimportant jobs or inflated agency budgets. I would invite you to put your money where your mouth is and visit any of the superfund sites that haven't been mitigated yet. Or read about their effects. Or talk to any of their inhabitants. How much pollution in your drinking water is acceptable to you? If 5 parts per million causes cancer and there are over 100 parts per million of an odorless, tasteless toxic substance in your water, is that okay? You can't see it, so it's not there, right? Yes there is middle ground between Love Canal and today. There should be no limits on any rule, limit, or regulation that any non elected and completely untouchable government bueracracy decides to impose on anything. |
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Post by santafe49 on Oct 22, 2015 16:28:42 GMT -8
I thought it was Federal law that employee's had to be given 90 days notice of a business decision to close?
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Post by theengineshed on Oct 22, 2015 16:47:09 GMT -8
I thought it was Federal law that employee's had to be given 90 days notice of a business decision to close? That is the Warn act and it is 60 days notice. Whether a company has to do this is dependent on both their size and the number of employees laid off. The company I work for has approximately 22K employees, 500 was the magic number for a 60 day notice, they only laid off 483 salaried employees, so no notice. In their defense, they gave all those laid off employees one weeks pay for every year of service. Unions usually negotiate lay off notices with employers, so those terms could be different, but 60 days is the law if the layoff is big enough relative to company size. |
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