Milestone reached - fleet converted!

[fr8kar]

It took about a year, but tonight I finally finished installing Sergent couplers in my rolling equipment. Granted, I have a modest fleet of just over 200 freight cars and 35 engines. But some of this equipment is somewhat old and overcoming some of the custom Kadee installations I did in the late 80s and early 90s has been a challenge. In fact, I said I wouldn't bother converting unless I could crack open the draft gear on my Rail Yard Mopac caboose without destroying it. Once the first pair of Sergents were installed in that caboose, the Great Conversion began.

Now I say finished, but to be honest, I'm still waiting for the shelf couplers to become available again to convert my tank cars. In the meantime they have McHenry double shelf couplers installed which will mate with the Sergent couplers. It's not an ideal situation, but it works. And the McHenrys look way better than the Kadee shelf couplers.

All the couplers were the ready to assemble type, which as you might imagine I got the assembly down to a science. I figure I can clean flash (of which there is rarely any) and foreign debris from four parts per minute and assemble a coupler in just under two minutes. There are three diecast parts per coupler and one steel ball (it does not need to be cleaned, just dropped in place). Not including the installation, that's just under 18 hours of assembly.

Most installations were pretty straightforward - about the same level of difficulty installing a Kadee coupler. It takes some practice to get the resistance spring installed, but once you figure it out, the spring and coupler get installed in one motion. Sometimes the coupler drawbar is too thick vertically for the pocket. In those cases, either surgery on the pocket or filing the drawbar thickness is required. Fortunately, it wasn't an issue that came up very often for me.

Like I said, there were some challenging installations. Among those were some Intermountain hopper kits where the draft gear was glued together rather than secured with a screw. Popping those open without total destruction was tough at times and unavoidable at others. Some of my old kitbash and scratchbuild jobs were hard just psyching myself up to pop them open, but often the installation went better than I'd expected. And then there are some cars that just need new draft gear if they are going to stick around - several old MDC/Roundhouse cars come to mind.

But possibly the most challenging of all was saved for last: two GP38-2s I've had since I got into the hobby. These two engines were originally converted to Kadees in the late 80s when I was a teenager and short on tools and supplies. Later, I dipped them in brake fluid and cut off the noses to make them high hoods. I put decoders in them last year just to get them up with the rest of the fleet. And tonight I finally hacked up the what-was-I-thinking homemade coupler pockets and installed the last of the Sergent Type E couplers I have on hand.

[mlehman]

Nothing beats the satisfaction of getting a big job like that finished. Went through something similar when I pulled everything off the layout and painted rail and track. It was a PITA, but once done I was so glad I did it. Now for the ballast....

So how are operations with the Sergents? They have to be reachable and sometimes that can be a str-eeee-tch.

[calzephyr]

Those Geeps look good with those couplers. Nice job! Any problems with operations?
Larry

[fr8kar]

Mike, I have a module I decided to reballast after some of the original ballast chipped up. Hours of chipping out ballast with a screwdriver and cutting it out with a knife. What a pain in the neck!

One question that comes up from time to time is durability. Sergent couplers are durable like Kadees and certainly more robust than the various plastic clones. I've operated a 37 car train at a setup in Oklahoma City without any issue and an even longer one at a setup in Fort Worth. The pulling face is just about the same height as a Kadee 58, so if the track is decent and without abrupt vertical transitions, things should stay together.

If you're used to operating with Kadees (automatic coupling and self-centering couplers), it can be a big change to go to Sergents. There are some similarities and differences in operations. If you use the trip pins with magnets and spot cars using the delayed uncoupling option, there is nothing similar using Sergents. You need to be present at the spot to uncouple cars. If you uncouple with bamboo skewers, operating with Sergents is very similar. Both require you to be in position directly above the joint to uncouple. I only have Free-mo modules (a portion of two are shown above), so reaching isn't a problem for me.

Sergents operate like the real thing - they don't center themselves - so if you uncouple in a curve, the couplers will be out of position to couple up on straight track and vice versa. The reverse of this problem can occur with Kadee couplers when a car is spotted at the end of a curve or reverse curve and the engine is on straight track or vice versa.

I've found that operations slow down with Sergents, which is fine with me. Most model switching is done way too fast since we don't have to mess with cutting in air or handbrakes. We also tend to switch from the engine rather than from the "ground" but that's a separate issue. Where I slow down is in checking the coupler alignment and coming to joints slowly. With Kadees as long as you aren't on a curve, coupling was pretty much guaranteed.

Where I have picked up speed in operations with Sergents is in uncoupling. When I used skewers with Kadees I had a pretty good chance I'd be able to uncouple the first time, but sometimes I had nothing but trouble. It seemed like 75% of the time it would work for me. Kadee shelf couplers are a nightmare with skewers unless you remove at least a portion of the shelf. With Sergents as long as the fit of the parts was checked when the coupler was assembled and lubricated with powdered graphite, the couplers operate the first time every time.

Now what I need to do is ebay all these Kadee couplers!

[roadkill]

I've been thinking about changing to Sergent's... just need a little kick in the butt I guess. They look soooooooo damn good...

[el3637]

They do look fine. I just got done fitting a pair of BannaBuffers to my C425 with #58 couplers. The closer to scale the draft gear, the more the Kadee looks out of place. But I already made my decision. I think the small head Kadees are acceptable. It would be interesting had Kadee NOT come out with the small head coupler... it's a compromise (as are code 88 wheels and NMRA track). Probably 40% of my rolling stock has large head Kadees. I have not installed any large Kadees on anything in the past 5+ years other than passenger cars, where they aren't seen for the most part and are slightly more forgiving in operation. But all new freight car builds have 58s. I still get the occasional RTR car with large head Kadees which I may or may not replace.

The Sergent is a great product. Unfortunately there are a lot of great products of all types out there that for one reason or another, I'm not going to be able to use.

Andy

[fr8kar]

Andy, I was with you a year ago. I figured I had too many cars, too many engines and nowhere near enough time to install - in many cases reinstall - couplers on my equipment, not to mention the money I'd spent on all those Kadees that would be lost never to be recovered.

I got started in much the same way as you've established an A and B fleet. Since I operate only at home on my modules and at Free-mo setups, there was never any chance my Mopac manifest train would interchange with my BN grain train or my NS local. I figured I'd start with the Mopac train since that made up the bulk of my purchases of newer rolling stock. It would also allow me to have a small fleet to pool with a couple other guys who had converted to Sergents. It wasn't long before the BN grain train was converted so all my grain cars could be pooled. Then it was only a matter of time before I was buying another gross of couplers.

I worked at converting the fleet from two different directions. I not only purchased more and more couplers and reworked odd installations over time, I also reduced the size of my fleet over the same time. Whether or not to install Sergents was a question that made me look at the fleet. Some cars made the cut, others did not. Some engines made the cut, others got sold off. Some, like the two NS motors pictured above, were converted as much out of nostalgia as anything else. 20 years ago, I thought they were great, but I wouldn't consider them passable models anymore.

I was a little more strict on which freight cars I kept. I have dozens of Athearn blue box and MDC/Roundhouse cars that are being stored right now in the event that my nephews switch from O to HO scale. Some of that stuff was great 20 or 30 years ago, but for example, when you weigh the Athearn PS 4740 against the Tangent PS 4740, there's just no comparison.

The change has influenced the choices I make in the models I build, too. I now incorporate Moloco draft gear where appropriate when kitbashing or scratchbuilding or even just reworking an old car. Once I'd begun this process, I started getting more serious about modeling some coal train power. Engines that didn't make the cut and got sold off are being replaced over time with newer, better running models. All in all I think I purged just over a dozen engines and maybe five or six dozen freight cars, which puts it at a reduction of roughly one third of my Kadee-equipped fleet.

The decision to convert made me focus a bit more, be a more strict adherent to the quality and detail levels I set for myself and made me push the limits of my modeling a bit further. And that's not to mention the increase in enjoyment and prototype fidelity I've gotten in operations. Such a change isn't for everyone, but I'm glad I did it.

[buffalobill]

Rch: You are right, the conversion ends up being a huge project. So far I have enough Sergent's to do a 30 car unit grain train of Genesis 5161's with two 3 unit power sets. I am on the fence as to whether I will convert the whole fleet. But they definitely look better than even the Kadee scale heads. I plan on acquiring more Sergent's for cars in Unit train or assigned train service cars, they tend to stay together, the A & B fleet thing. I probably won't acquire more Kadee's, just switch the Kadee's off the cars that will get the Sergent's and install them on newly acquired cars that come with the McHenry's. Honestly the reason I chose my BNSF shuttle train first was I did not like the Kadee solution for that particular Genesis car. The couplers went on the 6 loco's when I detailed them, but I don't have them on the cars as of yet.
Bill

[drolsen]

Bill - The original Genesis Trinity 5161 covered hoppers with the narrow (AccuScale) draft gear are definitely an easy conversion to Sergents and really look good when they're done. I know those draft gear were a pain for Kadee users, but they are a blessing for Sergent converts.

Dave

[fr8kar]

Bill, those BNSF grain cars can have a couple different coupler styles that you can model with Sergent couplers, once they become available again. Some cars have the lower shelf Es and others have Type Fs. It's something to pay attention to when you have to replace a knuckle on the real thing since F knuckles don't fit E couplers and vice versa.

I haven't bothered to convert my unit coal fleet, and don't count those cars toward the fleet total since I use dummy couplers. There are really no operating options with unit coal trains other than setting out a bad order, so I figure I will keep it simple with the non-operating variety. The Glatzl rotary dummy couplers Sergent offers are tempting, but without a coal dump I'd have no use for them.

[drolsen]

Aug 18, 2012 10:47:56 GMT -8 fr8kar said:

I haven't bothered to convert my unit coal fleet, and don't count those cars toward the fleet total since I use dummy couplers. There are really no operating options with unit coal trains other than setting out a bad order, so I figure I will keep it simple with the non-operating variety.

I probably should do that, but I love being able to model the correct type of prototype coupler on each freight car with Sergents. Aside from all the CSX coal traffic I'll eventually be modeling, the Potomac Electric Power Thrall cars in my area are one of the only utility coal trains I'll be running. They are coal Thrall gons equipped with lower shelf Type Fs:

drolsen.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2767337

It's going to be expensive, but I want to equip them with Sergents so I can have the right type of coupler on them. Plus they tend to get mixed in with CSX gons and hoppers, so that will let me mix and match cars in my coal trains.

Dave

[Deleted]

Aug 18, 2012 10:47:56 GMT -8 fr8kar said:

Bill, those BNSF grain cars can have a couple different coupler styles that you can model with Sergent couplers, once they become available again. Some cars have the lower shelf Es and others have Type Fs. It's something to pay attention to when you have to replace a knuckle on the real thing since F knuckles don't fit E couplers and vice versa.

I haven't bothered to convert my unit coal fleet, and don't count those cars toward the fleet total since I use dummy couplers. There are really no operating options with unit coal trains other than setting out a bad order, so I figure I will keep it simple with the non-operating variety. The Glatzl rotary dummy couplers Sergent offers are tempting, but without a coal dump I'd have no use for them.

That's what I am doing...but I am putting operating sergents on the ends of 10 car cuts...that way...I can break down a 40 car coal train (maximum length on my layout) into four cuts...on my Bowser 100 ton cars...(N&W interchange)...whereas I am installing 80 narrow shank couplers and scale boxes on my Accurail ICG 70 ton hoppers just to enhance a great looking model.

I also did the car purge as well...focusing on less-is-more, detailed cars and installing MOLOCO draft gear on older Atlas boxcars...now with ExactRails' new wheels...I can complete the Atlas cars and have decent looking freight cars from all aspects. Atlas ACF boxcars really "pop" with MOLOCO draft gear and brakes...with Sergents on them!!!

[fr8kar]

Tom, I took the same approach with my coal cars, only I think I kept them in 6 car cuts, with each cut using Kadee 58s on each end and dummy couplers in between. Having just a couple Kadees in there helped add a little slack action to an otherwise very tight train.

And I'm glad you mentioned the Moloco brake gear. I spend a lot of quality time with handbrakes, so I have to give it up to Moloco for modeling a wide variety of handbrake mechanisms. There's nothing worse than a bent up Ajax brake with the short release on 40+ year old gondola. And nothing nicer than an Ellcon National brake with a nice heavy cast wheel. One spin and those things nearly tie themselves. Nick really captured the look of each one.

Dave, I think it's pretty cool you're willing to take it all the way like that. I'd be content to have those rotary dummy couplers in a Type F form. Once Sergent can deliver the various specialty couplers consistently, I'm sure I'll start equipping everything accordingly. It is absolutely mandatory to get my BN coal engines equipped with Type Fs. I spend quite a bit of time switching with those old BN SD40-2s so there's no way I can put the wrong couplers on them and still sleep at night!

[drolsen]

Aug 19, 2012 5:06:49 GMT -8 fr8kar said:

It is absolutely mandatory to get my BN coal engines equipped with Type Fs. I spend quite a bit of time switching with those old BN SD40-2s so there's no way I can put the wrong couplers on them and still sleep at night!

My one "off topic" modeling effort is a BNSF Utility Fuels coal train that I'm putting together as a reminder of my railfanning experiences on the Joint Line when I lived in Colorado. I have all the equipment I need (two BN and one BNSF SD70MAC with about 45 UFIX Berwick and ACF gons), but I haven't done any detailing / weathering yet. I did put the correct Sergent Type Fs on the three SD70MACs, and even without additional detailing, they look great. They are my current power for testing Sergents and just running trains on my test track when I want to take a break from modeling.

Dave

[buffalobill]

Rch: I was just using the Die Cast Type E's. To start, I split a gross with a friend, who was also taking the plunge. That how I ended up with the 36 pairs. I guess I will have to look. I thought all of the BNSF Trinity Grain cars had type E's. My bad. If not they will go on a 35 car BN Unit Train of Johnstown America Aluminum GT coal gonds. One of the reasons I didn't start with the Type F's is it appears they are always out of Stock or Limited availability. Casting process issues. I definitely do not have the assembly process down yet, despite buying the jig and tools. But I will get there.
Bill

[Deleted]

I also will add that I am converting all Tangent UP quad hoppers (30...soon to be 42 cars) to Sergents...I will have a large surplus of kadee number 5's and scale couplers to go on eBay soon!!! ;D

[drolsen]

Tom - You may have noticed this already, but if you have any of the black rotary-equipped UP hoppers, they have lower shelf Type Fs (at least in the last few years - not certain that they were delivered with them), while the regular oxide red/brown cars have lower shelf Type Es. One of the neat benefits of being able to match the prototype couplers with Sergents.

Dave

[fr8kar]

Aug 19, 2012 7:21:30 GMT -8 buffalobill said:

Rch: I was just using the Die Cast Type E's. To start, I split a gross with a friend, who was also taking the plunge. That how I ended up with the 36 pairs. I guess I will have to look. I thought all of the BNSF Trinity Grain cars had type E's. My bad. If not they will go on a 35 car BN Unit Train of Johnstown America Aluminum GT coal gonds. One of the reasons I didn't start with the Type F's is it appears they are always out of Stock or Limited availability. Casting process issues. I definitely do not have the assembly process down yet, despite buying the jig and tools. But I will get there.
Bill

Bill, I understand your dilemma with the out of stock couplers. I'm waiting on them to be restocked myself. Once they are, you can always move the Type E couplers to other equipment and re-equip with the correct type if you want.

I had a chance to look at some Trinity 5161s last night and they were equipped with lower shelf Type E couplers. I'm not an expert on the modern stuff, so I can't tell you which car numbers get which couplers, but I'll keep a lookout and see what I find.

[Deleted]

Aug 19, 2012 20:45:41 GMT -8 drolsen said:

Tom - You may have noticed this already, but if you have any of the black rotary-equipped UP hoppers, they have lower shelf Type Fs (at least in the last few years - not certain that they were delivered with them), while the regular oxide red/brown cars have lower shelf Type Es. One of the neat benefits of being able to match the prototype couplers with Sergents.

Dave

I had not noticed that, Dave...but, yes...You can match certain aspects of the couplers...which makes sense to me as well...since the Tangent Red Hoppers are the best looking coal hopper out there, IMO...Why not have the correct couplers on them? ;D

[edwardsutorik]

Very interesting!

I just yesterday finished putting my first Sergents on. I decided to do it to the "inner" couplers of a set of F's (it's a B unit that's done). I figure it will minimize slack between the units and also put them at the right spacing. I am concurrently experiencing the joys of DCC installation and DecoderPro programming; so there's a lot of new experiences here.

After experiencing "runaway train" with my Athearn Bethgons, I figured I'd put dummies on them to solve the problem. I'm seeing that it might be wise to add some Sergents, also. And I'll also have to decide whether to put Sergents on their power.

At this time, I'm not concerned with all the prototype coupler options you guys mentioned. I'm happy to have a coupler that actually looks like one, never mind the right one.

I also intend to try out the passenger uncoupling tool. If I'm happy with it, my passenger cars may well get Sergents. As to regular freight cars, using the Sergents does effect "interchange", so I'll think on that some more.

I note that it's a LOT of fun getting those springs in--strong little beggars!


Ed

[buffalobill]

Ed: I am with you, I was just interested in the Prototypical look of the Sergent coupler. I am not sure that unless its a static display model, that someone can tell the Difference between a Type E or F bottom shelf equipped car rolling bye on the layout I want to build some day. The big honkin trip pin on the Kadee's do stand out like a sore thumb.

I think I will switch the locomotive couplers when I finally get some of the type F's, as most modern units have them.

I uttered a few choice new words putting the first few together. But after 6 units it got a little easier. A clean well lighted workplace where you can find the parts is a must. Sort of like launching the knuckle springs on a Kadee coupler. I you can't find it, you will need some spare parts.

Bill

[fr8kar]

Bill, with my second order I added a couple packs of spare steel balls and springs just in case. I've never needed more than what was supplied with each order, but during assembly of the first few I was thinking there was no way I'd have enough to finish. It got better.

I'll agree with you about being able to spot the difference between the coupler types. Unless you're a little off the deep end with detailing models or a railroader (and you might be surprised how few of them know the difference even though it's their job), the coupler isn't something you spend much time looking at and learning the differences. Type F couplers have interlocking tabs on each side and are pretty hefty compared to the various Type E couplers. When you think about what forces are at work with rotary couplers, you understand why the interlocking tabs are there and why standard Type E couplers don't work in those installations. Type F couplers are becoming more the norm on unit grain trains and tank cars, even though Type E shelf couplers (lower shelf and double shelf, respectively) are still the dominant type for each.

Now if I were modeling passenger operations, I'd be interested in Type H couplers. They are very distinctive looking.

[buffalobill]

Rch: I agree, and I am well aware of the difference. Its just most of us would not be able to differentiate between a Type E or F in a passing HO train on a layout. Plus unless the layout is up high, most of us can not differentiate between a standard Type E and a bottom shelf Type E coupler. I find the eye's are more attracted to the car body, and the trucks. I think that is why most of us stayed with the Kadee product so long. It was not perfect, but it did the job, and it was certainly closer than the old kit supplied X2f's. Plus their magnets worked.

I guess what I am saying is I would rather put the dollars where the viewer can recognize and appreciate them.

That said, I do have almost 90 tank cars equipped with Kadee 119's.
Bill

[fr8kar]

Aug 20, 2012 16:33:06 GMT -8 buffalobill said:

That said, I do have almost 90 tank cars equipped with Kadee 119's.
Bill

Wow! I would be thrilled to acquire half that many tank cars!

[drolsen]

I have to admit that if I was just watching trains roll by on the layout, I would probably have stuck with Kadees with the trip pins cut off and be done with it. Where Sergents stand out to me is in two of my favorite aspects of operations - switching industries and classifying freight cars in a yard. When doing those activities, I immediately notice whether a car is equipped with a Kadee #5, #58, Accumate, McHenry, etc, both in terms of how they function and their appearance. It's the same way with Sergents - when doing the delicate work of aligning couplers, coupling, and uncoupling, I immediately noticed what type of coupler they are equipped with. What is especially impressive to me is seeing how flawlessly the different types of Sergent couplers mesh together when I'm doing these operations (well, testing them at the moment). Seeing how a small Type E shelf coupler fits perfectly into a larger Type F clearly demonstrates how much care Frank put into designing these couplers.

Dave

[buffalobill]

Dave: I will admit the Type F lower shelf couplers are beautiful. But I have only seen one model equipped with them at a show. For now I will stick with the die cast Type E's, they are available and competitively priced. I actually have not even tried uncoupling them yet, I only have six loco's done. They have run together as 3 unit lash ups.

So far I have only seen Sergent's used on a switching module at a show. That, and some urging from a friend are the reason I started with them.

Bill