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Post by roadkill on Nov 30, 2015 18:21:14 GMT -8
A CSX crew is in a LOT of trouble...
The crew of CSX Q355 appeared to have run thru their signal and came awfully close to colliding with NS 66N, which, BTW, is an ethanol train! Somebody's gonna be peeing in a cup...
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Post by curtmc on Nov 30, 2015 21:36:14 GMT -8
I've read and heard a couple of conflicting reports on it... And two things don't quite add up. First was the description of the CSX train on the NW connection track and second is the string of hoppers on front of NS train (grain hoppers not marked as buffer cars). CSX train if on NW connection track would be long enough to foul the NS main at the B&O/NS diamond near train station. NS train 66N normally has 1 buffer car (not 3+ grain cars) at head end.
My bet is that CSX train (Q355 - which is a Cumberland to Walbridge train) was actually on NE connector track (the normal route for that train) and was approaching the C&O/NS diamond slowly and jumped the gun on his window to pass through.
Normally CSX dispatching (which controls all the diamonds in Fostoria) sets it up where there are opposing (or parallel) moves on NS during the short windows given to NS. Most of the time NS dispatching and crews - which have been waiting at signals just outside of Fostoria (and in fact the westbound signal where westbound NS trains normally wait can be seen in that initial screen shot) - are quick enough that both trains meet and pass there within a few minutes. I would bet the NS 66N got a slow start, the WB NS train passed by before 66N got going much and CSX crew (which might have seen end of WB NS train) assumed both NS had passed. It is actually common for CSX trains on the NE connector to pull up just short of the street crossing to wait on NS trains. That CSX train just got a head start but was fortunately able to shut it down with about 40' to spare... Next time CSX dispatcher - if Q355 is that close - should make the NS trains wait longer - and until their passage will not interrupt/delay a CSX train. So the dispatcher needs a little talk as well.
PS. The CSX NB signal is about 2 unit lengths back. The NS EB signal for that diamond is about a block back. It is common practice for CSX (who controls all the diamonds in Fostoria since their predecessors were the first railroads there) dispatchers to give CSX trains priority at all the diamonds and make NS trains wait (hours if needed). You can't speculate exactly what went on that day but it can be said that CSX trains are not used to waiting on NS trains there.
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Post by atsfan on Dec 1, 2015 7:42:17 GMT -8
Isnt there a signal to allow either railroad to proceed?
In other words wouldnt the CSX still need a non red signal light in order to move past it?
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Dec 2, 2015 7:07:24 GMT -8
Hmm...a whole lot of speculative conclusions reached from the brief video clip we're being shown here. I'm not sure anything I saw says anything about what may or may not have occurred. Just like listening to network news!!!
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Post by curtmc on Dec 3, 2015 19:02:13 GMT -8
I've watched many trains (hundreds) go through Fostoria, both in person and on the webcam, and it would be very, very uncommon for any NS train to be given permission through the diamonds by the controlling CSX dispatcher if a CSX train was approaching town much less a block away. |
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Dec 4, 2015 18:22:07 GMT -8
I've watched many trains (hundreds) go through Fostoria, both in person and on the webcam, and it would be very, very uncommon for any NS train to be given permission through the diamonds by the controlling CSX dispatcher if a CSX train was approaching town much less a block away. Again, there is NO indication on that video of anything that actually happened. I do know from my last trip to Fostoria that trains on the track the CSX train is occupying travel at barely a walking speed as they are taking a near 90 degree right turn from Westward direction to a Northern direction. Quite possibly the NS train went into emergency or stopped for an unexpected reason and the CSX train was permitted to move up to the position it is in and hold to clear traffic behind it. Again, nothing in the video or information given in any posts here, including mine, give any information on the facts of the situation but are merely speculative. |
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Post by curtmc on Dec 5, 2015 13:54:31 GMT -8
So true! We cannot say from the short post-incident video anything that might have gone on... There are some who would immediately point a finger at CSX even if it was the NS train that was at fault, and the NS train is well into the block (perhaps 12-15 car lengths) whereas the CSX train is just beyond his signal (maybe 3-4 car lengths). On the NS main that NS train could have been doing up to 40 mph whereas the CSX train coming around the northeast leg would likely be doing 5-10 mph. Without video BEFORE the trains stopped, there is no proof that there was any type of close call or incident.
Also it must not have appeared to be too close of a call... All those guys calmly standing in the corner of the park toward the diamond... If I were standing near there and it appeared a NS train was about to hit a CSX train (or vice versa) within a few seconds of my making that deduction I would be running for the other side of the railfan park! NO SANE PERSON wants a front row view of that type of incident.
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Post by roadkill on Dec 6, 2015 17:48:47 GMT -8
I have a couple of friends that work for CSX, I'll ask them if they have any more info as to what happened.
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Dec 7, 2015 16:43:20 GMT -8
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Post by roadkill on Dec 7, 2015 16:55:26 GMT -8
That's how I'd heard it from my CSX engineer friend. The plot thickens... |
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Post by curtmc on Dec 10, 2015 7:32:53 GMT -8
From CSX management standpoint... A dispatcher who gave the NS 66N train green (IF they had green) through Fostoria with Q355 near or in the plant needs some retraining on who has control (CSX) and who gets priority (CSX trains).
NS train crew may have had green across B&O but red at C&O crossing.
CSX train crew may have had red and ran a few lengths too far.
CSX train crew may have had prior verbal instruction from dispatcher that they were lined up (something crews used to get from operator at F tower).
Bottom line is that without video and dispatcher recordings we can't tell or say which it was, and the important thing was that quick action on the part of both train crews prevented an actual crash, and maybe informed CSX that closing the tower wasn't the best move.
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Post by gevohogger on Dec 11, 2015 4:37:05 GMT -8
NS train crew may have had green across B&O but red at C&O crossing. CSX train crew may have had red and ran a few lengths too far. Doubtful the NS could get a clear at one crossing when there is an absolute stop at the second which is only a few hundred feet away and around a curve. Rumor is circulating that the CSX had a restricting onto the NE connector but a stop at the NS diamond.... Why they didn't lay back behind the road crossing is anyone's guess but they probably assumed there would be something better at the next signal. You know what happens when you assume... |
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Post by curtmc on Dec 11, 2015 5:31:31 GMT -8
Yes, not a clear but an approach... Certainly not common but a move I observed F Tower do during one of my many days there in Fostoria...
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Post by curtmc on Dec 11, 2015 5:39:04 GMT -8
I could see that happening... If that was the case then IMHO the dispatcher needs retraining. With a CSX train cleared into NE connector the NS train likely should have been held at signal prior to NS/B&O diamonds until after the CSX train had passed. Might have been what the CSX train crew was expecting. NS trains are used to holding there. CSX trains are not used to stopping on the NE connector - something I can't recall ever seeing. If they are stopped it is usually at prior block before the first street crossing.
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Post by atsfan on Dec 11, 2015 6:25:01 GMT -8
Dispatching from 1000 miles away in a hurricane zone is CSX's version of quality.
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Post by gevohogger on Dec 11, 2015 7:09:50 GMT -8
I could see that happening... If that was the case then IMHO the dispatcher needs retraining. With a CSX train cleared into NE connector the NS train likely should have been held at signal prior to NS/B&O diamonds until after the CSX train had passed. Might have been what the CSX train crew was expecting. NS trains are used to holding there. CSX trains are not used to stopping on the NE connector - something I can't recall ever seeing. If they are stopped it is usually at prior block before the first street crossing. Not a clear onto the connector, a Restricting. NS train was looking at greens all the way through town. |
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Dec 11, 2015 17:51:11 GMT -8
Dispatching from 1000 miles away in a hurricane zone is CSX's version of quality. I believe that I read that Fostoria was now dispatched out of Indy. Much of Midwestern CSX is dispatched out of Calumet City, Illinois Still nothing but speculation and no definitive facts seen here on what occurred. I'll add my swag: the CSX train was creeping along and hoped the NS train would clear up quick and they wouldn't have to start up from a stop. The NS train not knowing that saw the CSX train briefly after clearing the vision block of the underbrush West of Poplar St. on the south side of their curving ROW and the rail fan building were startled as to CSX's proximity and not seeing it long enough to judge speed hit the oh s*** button. With the real world not being like the home layout the engineers can't walk around the corner with their radio throttle to ask Joe on the other train if he's stopping or daydreaming. I don't think there is any direct radio traffic between CSX and NS trains |
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Post by atsfan on Dec 11, 2015 18:16:05 GMT -8
Dispatching from 1000 miles away in a hurricane zone is CSX's version of quality. I believe that I read that Fostoria was now dispatched out of Indy. Much of Midwestern CSX is dispatched out of Calumet City, Illinois That would be an improvement I guess. With the improvements in cameras I always wonder why railroad dispatching doesnt use more of them for places lime Fostoria. |
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Post by roadkill on Dec 11, 2015 18:35:35 GMT -8
My CSX engineer friend told that, as expected, CSX is very mum on what happened. What he did tell me is that NS 66N did have the signal to cross, and that the Q355 crew was not qualified and running in unfamiliar territory without a pilot and ran his signal. The 66N crew saw Q355 heading for the diamond and dumped their air not knowing if the Q355 would stop short of the diamond.
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