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Post by Paul Cutler III on Feb 4, 2016 9:17:20 GMT -8
atsfan, Um, using multiple similar words is sort of how a dictionary works. How else do you define words without using other similar words? In your auto wreck example, the difference is whether or not the other driver is actually to blame for driving too fast. Believe it or not, sudden unintended acceleration does happen. See Toyota and their $1.2b fine: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_acceleration That little situation caused at least 89 deaths. I'm guessing that you'd blame every single one of these deaths on the drivers themselves, right? Not Toyota. The drivers should have known their accelerator pedals could get stuck at any time. Buyer beware...amirite? And for the record, I don't think that the Amtrak wreck is a blameless event. If the engineer gave himself a concussion by dodging a rock striking his windshield, then the rock thrower is to blame. If the engineer lost situational awareness (IOW, forgot where he was on the NEC), then the engineer is to blame. My point has always been that no one knows which is which right now. Not me, not you, not the NTSB. Oh, and why won't you specify the soooper mysterious politics the engineer has that will keep him from being blamed? I've only asked you several times. It's like you don't want to say it, even tho' you brought it up. What could it be? What kind of politics could keep a man free of blame? I'd think everyone would want to be in that political party if that was the case. |
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Post by roadkill on Feb 4, 2016 9:51:19 GMT -8
It's my guess that the engineer became hypnotized and lost track of where he was. Extremely difficult to prove, of course, but it makes the most sense.
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Post by mlehman on Feb 4, 2016 12:08:52 GMT -8
Roger,
That's possible, but there's not enough proof to cast blame.
And casting blame wouldn't solve the basic problem.
If we're going to have single individuals operating trains at speeds of over 100 mph, should we not consider a better system of safety or supervision than BLAME?
Because blame neither protects in the future nor does it restore anyone to life or full function.
However, if you really feel the need to cast blame, then aim it squarely at the political and economic factors that so far have obstructed full implementation of PTC -- influence and money that bought repeated delay in doing so. Because the NTSB really isn't in position to cast that stone -- although presuming they act in the public interest, they should.
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Post by atsfan on Feb 4, 2016 12:14:38 GMT -8
It's my guess that the engineer became hypnotized and lost track of where he was. Extremely difficult to prove, of course, but it makes the most sense. Which makes it still his fault. If you drive your car into something and kill and injure people you can't get away with "I was hypnotized and lost track of where he was". Even if medically PROVEN (which isn't here) that doesn't get you off of the hook. Same in this case. People are just ignoring reality. Reality is he drove the train into the curve at over 100mph. Now, WHY did he do that is the only question. He is claiming Sgt. Schultz. That means either, he is lying to save himself, or, something "caused" him to zone out, black out, faint, etc. There is zero evidence of the grassy knoll second shooter "something pierced the windshield and knocked him out" excuse. Windshield not punctured. He was not injured like that (which at over 100 mph would have happened). Nothing found the cab. So that is out. The absolute best case for him is he can get by with the Sgt Schultz "something caused me to not remember anything" act. Clearly people here believe him and thus excuse it all away. The lawsuits will figure out some of this. Hopefully he will get many civil suits against him which he will have to defend other than fronting his lawyer and going Sgt Schultz. Court and juries won't buy that nonsense like posters here do. |
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Post by roadkill on Feb 4, 2016 13:24:12 GMT -8
It's my guess that the engineer became hypnotized and lost track of where he was. Extremely difficult to prove, of course, but it makes the most sense. Which makes it still his fault. If you drive your car into something and kill and injure people you can't get away with "I was hypnotized and lost track of where he was". Even if medically PROVEN (which isn't here) that doesn't get you off of the hook. Same in this case. People are just ignoring reality. Reality is he drove the train into the curve at over 100mph. Now, WHY did he do that is the only question. He is claiming Sgt. Schultz. That means either, he is lying to save himself, or, something "caused" him to zone out, black out, faint, etc. There is zero evidence of the grassy knoll second shooter "something pierced the windshield and knocked him out" excuse. Windshield not punctured. He was not injured like that (which at over 100 mph would have happened). Nothing found the cab. So that is out. The absolute best case for him is he can get by with the Sgt Schultz "something caused me to not remember anything" act. Clearly people here believe him and thus excuse it all away. The lawsuits will figure out some of this. Hopefully he will get many civil suits against him which he will have to defend other than fronting his lawyer and going Sgt Schultz. Court and juries won't buy that nonsense like posters here do. Believe me, I'm not trying to deflect blame away from the engineer, I was merely stating my beliefs. Indeed if I am correct (and I stand by my belief) then he is indeed to blame for this wreck, but as others have said at this point nobody knows and nobody may ever know the cause. |
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Post by canrailfan on Feb 4, 2016 19:56:31 GMT -8
One factor that I noticed in this derailment was the complete destruction of the first Amfleet coach behind the locomotive. All the other coaches were reasonably intact.
The catenary system at this point on the corridor appears to be quite old, built in a time when catenary was 'overbuilt' with heavy steel posts and crossbeams. It appears the first coach struck one of these steel posts at the coach's midpoint causing the car to be ripped apart. This is not a scenario likely taken into account in the Amfleet coach design.
A more modern catenary system with frangible posts would have perhaps saved some lives and critical injuries.
I wonder if the NTSB final report will look at what role the old catenary system played in the accident.
David
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Post by Gary P on Feb 5, 2016 3:51:37 GMT -8
One factor that I noticed in this derailment was the complete destruction of the first Amfleet coach behind the locomotive. All the other coaches were reasonably intact. The catenary system at this point on the corridor appears to be quite old, built in a time when catenary was 'overbuilt' with heavy steel posts and crossbeams. It appears the first coach struck one of these steel posts at the coach's midpoint causing the car to be ripped apart. This is not a scenario likely taken into account in the Amfleet coach design. A more modern catenary system with frangible posts would have perhaps saved some lives and critical injuries. I wonder if the NTSB final report will look at what role the old catenary system played in the accident. David Interesting..... Good point. I never thought of that, but I'm pretty sure the folks investigating this are taking all factors into account. When comparing newer autos/trucks of today to the old iron that I grew up with, after an accident newer vehicles almost look like they exploded. But, the occupants are probably in better shape than if they were in a "tank" from the 1950's. The newer vehicle sacrifices itself and absorbs much of the energy, allowing for less serious injury to occupants. |
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Post by roadkill on Feb 5, 2016 13:48:41 GMT -8
One factor that I noticed in this derailment was the complete destruction of the first Amfleet coach behind the locomotive. All the other coaches were reasonably intact. The catenary system at this point on the corridor appears to be quite old, built in a time when catenary was 'overbuilt' with heavy steel posts and crossbeams. It appears the first coach struck one of these steel posts at the coach's midpoint causing the car to be ripped apart. This is not a scenario likely taken into account in the Amfleet coach design. A more modern catenary system with frangible posts would have perhaps saved some lives and critical injuries. I wonder if the NTSB final report will look at what role the old catenary system played in the accident. David Interesting..... Good point. I never thought of that, but I'm pretty sure the folks investigating this are taking all factors into account. When comparing newer autos/trucks of today to the old iron that I grew up with, after an accident newer vehicles almost look like they exploded. But, the occupants are probably in better shape than if they were in a "tank" from the 1950's. The newer vehicle sacrifices itself and absorbs much of the energy, allowing for less serious injury to occupants. Ever seen this? Speaks volumes, no? |
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Post by atsfan on Feb 5, 2016 14:11:58 GMT -8
Cantenary can be made of string and at 100 mph you are toast.
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Post by Gary P on Feb 6, 2016 7:00:47 GMT -8
Interesting..... Good point. I never thought of that, but I'm pretty sure the folks investigating this are taking all factors into account. When comparing newer autos/trucks of today to the old iron that I grew up with, after an accident newer vehicles almost look like they exploded. But, the occupants are probably in better shape than if they were in a "tank" from the 1950's. The newer vehicle sacrifices itself and absorbs much of the energy, allowing for less serious injury to occupants. Ever seen this? Speaks volumes, no? Yes, exactly. However, I would still prefer to own that '59 over the newer model, just because it's cool!  |
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Post by atsfan on Feb 12, 2016 5:51:46 GMT -8
www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-3427435/Despite-Amtrak-engineers-clarity-no-answer-train-sped.htmlThe sad part is the guy and his lawyer still think that by playing Sgt Schultz, he isn't guilty. That is complete nonsense. You can't kill people and try to get away with it by saying "I don't remember" (unless you can prove insanity in which case you are institutionalized). If you drive your car into another car at 2x the speed limit can kill the other cars occupants, you are not going to get way with "I don't know what happened" no matter how many internet posters write that you are innocent and "we may never know what happened". We do know what happened. And you would be liable and so is he and so is Amtrak. Let the court cases proceed.......
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Feb 12, 2016 7:34:35 GMT -8
Still waiting for you to tell us the engineer's politics, atsfan, and why he won't be blamed for the wreck because of them.
Still waiting...
Still waiting...
Still waiting...
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Post by atsfan on Feb 12, 2016 8:19:45 GMT -8
Still waiting for you to tell us the engineer's politics, atsfan, and why he won't be blamed for the wreck because of them. Still waiting... Still waiting... Still waiting... I have decided to keep politics out of this and thus you can wait all you want to There are obvious issues here but they can be discussed on a political forum Meanwhile, I am still waiting for you to explain how you feel when your family is dead and they guy who did it gets away with it by saying he forgot? Still waiting And waiting And waiting Since your still thinking of that, try this one. You shoot 7 people. When asked why you say "I don't remember but please write that I Am being extremely cooperative". Please explain to us your new revolutionary legal practice of innocence by forgetting. We will wait for that ......... |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2016 8:40:49 GMT -8
Or you're Ted Kennedy.  |
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Post by emd16645 on Feb 12, 2016 9:07:56 GMT -8
I have decided to keep politics out of this and thus you can wait all you want to. Nice cop out. This forum would be absolutely amazing if everyone made absurd comments, and then ignored questions asking for clarification. Thanks! |
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Post by atsfan on Feb 12, 2016 9:43:35 GMT -8
I have decided to keep politics out of this and thus you can wait all you want to. Nice cop out. This forum would be absolutely amazing if everyone made absurd comments, and then ignored questions asking for clarification. Thanks! Nothing absurd about them. It is an easy question to answer but it would only invite you to get more agitated. Search on it and figure it out. Anyone thinking politics doesn't enter into everything coming out of DC today is either ignoring reality, off the grid , or in line with the decisions being made. |
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Post by atsfan on Feb 12, 2016 10:39:08 GMT -8
In addition to finishing PTC in Philadelphia, Amtrak is installing new larger signs along to ROW to warn unsuspecting crew of the cause:  |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Feb 12, 2016 17:20:00 GMT -8
atsfan,
You've decided to keep politics out of this? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You brought it up! Puh-leez.
If you really want to keep it off the forum, send me an e-mail or a PM. I'd love to know what is so "obvious" when no one else knows what you're talking about.
To answer your question for the record, if someone crashed into my car that resulted in a concussion for the other driver, killed my family and injured me, and the driver said he can't remember why, I will say this: it depends. Was the other driver drunk, high, or on the phone? The Amtrak engineer wasn't. Did the other driver have an otherwise perfect safety record? The Amtrak engineer did. Was the other driver impacted by anything externally that would make him go out of control? The Amtrak engineer may have been. I'm not saying the engineer is 100% innocent and not to blame. I'm saying it's possible that he isn't. It's called having an open mind. You might want to try that.
Shooting anyone is completely irrelevant to this situation...unless you believe that the Amtrak engineer deliberately caused the wreck to try and kill not only his passengers but himself as well?
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Post by atsfan on Feb 13, 2016 7:10:06 GMT -8
atsfan, You've decided to keep politics out of this? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You brought it up! Puh-leez. If you really want to keep it off the forum, send me an e-mail or a PM. I'd love to know what is so "obvious" when no one else knows what you're talking about. To answer your question for the record, if someone crashed into my car that resulted in a concussion for the other driver, killed my family and injured me, and the driver said he can't remember why, I will say this: it depends. Was the other driver drunk, high, or on the phone? The Amtrak engineer wasn't. Did the other driver have an otherwise perfect safety record? The Amtrak engineer did. Was the other driver impacted by anything externally that would make him go out of control? The Amtrak engineer may have been. I'm not saying the engineer is 100% innocent and not to blame. I'm saying it's possible that he isn't. It's called having an open mind. You might want to try that. Shooting anyone is completely irrelevant to this situation...unless you believe that the Amtrak engineer deliberately caused the wreck to try and kill not only his passengers but himself as well? If you can't figure out what his politics are you either have not tried one calorie worth, or you deliberately want to ignore it. And everything done out of Washington is decided politically. Everything. You are from New England, and you remind me of someone else from there, who tried to tap dance around the truth and had to contort some sort of nonsense about how if his family was killed, he would keep an open mind. What a total pile of manure. Everyone can see you are not telling the truth. I would just love to see you after the funerals saying of the driver, "well I am keeping and open mind because he might have been drunk". We are still waiting to hear you describe your new details of the revolutionary legal defense "innocence by forgetting" , now with new sub chapter, "how to claim innocence and get victims to keep an open mind by being drunk or high". Puh-Leez let's see how that works. |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Feb 13, 2016 9:03:35 GMT -8
atsfan,
You won't say it publically. You won't say it privately. Why? You brought it up, yet you refuse to explain yourself (talk about tap dancing). What possible reason could there be? It's like you hate this Amtrak engineer, like it's personal or something. There have been many railroad accidents over the years since you've been on this forum and the old Atlas Forum, yet only this one has you posting over and over about it. What's different about this one engineer that rubs you the wrong way? Just say it...or withdraw the "politics" statement. It's that easy.
In what way did I excuse a drunk driver? Please let me know, because I didn't. If the other driver was drunk, high or on the phone = guilty in my book, even if the driver doesn't remember. The Amtrak engineer wasn't drunk, high, or on the phone. He may be guilty of negligence in operating the train, but he's not guilty of operating under the influence or operating an electronic device. To bring it back into railroading and to make my opinion clear, I think CR engineer Ricky Gates got off easy with 4 years in prison for the Chase, MD wreck in 1987 for being high and causing 16 deaths.
Anyways, just answer this: Did the Amtrak engineer get a concussion before or after the accident occurred? If he got it before, for whatever reason, that's a mitigating circumstance. If after, he's guilty of negligence. Is that fair?
You said you won't bring politics into the forum, but then you post political stuff here anyways. Do you always say one thing and then do the exact opposite?
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Post by atsfan on Feb 13, 2016 10:25:41 GMT -8
atsfan, You won't say it publically. You won't say it privately. Why? You brought it up, yet you refuse to explain yourself (talk about tap dancing). What possible reason could there be? It's like you hate this Amtrak engineer, like it's personal or something. There have been many railroad accidents over the years since you've been on this forum and the old Atlas Forum, yet only this one has you posting over and over about it. What's different about this one engineer that rubs you the wrong way? Just say it...or withdraw the "politics" statement. It's that easy. In what way did I excuse a drunk driver? Please let me know, because I didn't. If the other driver was drunk, high or on the phone = guilty in my book, even if the driver doesn't remember. The Amtrak engineer wasn't drunk, high, or on the phone. He may be guilty of negligence in operating the train, but he's not guilty of operating under the influence or operating an electronic device. To bring it back into railroading and to make my opinion clear, I think CR engineer Ricky Gates got off easy with 4 years in prison for the Chase, MD wreck in 1987 for being high and causing 16 deaths. Anyways, just answer this: Did the Amtrak engineer get a concussion before or after the accident occurred? If he got it before, for whatever reason, that's a mitigating circumstance. If after, he's guilty of negligence. Is that fair? ? You keep changing your answer. Stick with one story. Do you always say one thing and then do the other? You wrote it would depend on if the guy was drunk or high it would change the situation. Now you say you didn't. That is a dodge. You keep asking questions, but you refuse to answer any clearly. I too can go to a dictionary and spin words to mean different things and then change them and then use any of it to dodge and deny. That is easy. Doing what you do is dodging. You ask me a question "Did the Amtrak engineer get a concussion before or after the accident occurred". First off, there is zero, repeat zero, proof, evidence, or even close to him EVER getting a concussion. None. The windshield has a "dent" in it (AFTER derailing at 100mph). He had no injuries to show he was hit by a thrown object piercing a shatter proof windshield at over 100 mph. So you keep throwing these irrelevant straw-man arguments up to dodge the facts further. Clever, but they don't work. He says he can't remember. That does not mean he didn't do what he did, which is drive train (accelerating actually) into a 50 MPH curve at over 100 MPH. Why not just ask "Did the Amtrak engineer get abducted by ailens before or after the accident occurred". It makes the same difference since he DID NOT HAVE a concussion. Second off, at least you finally admit he is negligent. Of course he is. He can't do as you say and just hide by saying he forgot. Now you will come back with a forth or fifth version of what you wrote. Depends on the definition of "is" I guess. |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Feb 14, 2016 10:15:23 GMT -8
atsfan,
Ah, I see we've had a bit of a miscommunication, and going back and reading my own post I can see why. In my earlier post, I was coming at it from the angle that the other driver would not be to blame initially, and so when I said "it depends" and brought up a DUI, it was to make the other driver guilty, not innocent. You, OTOH, came at it as if the driver was already guilty (no surprise there, right?) and so you thought that my DUI qualifier was to make the other driver blameless. Be assured that is not the case with me. A DUI is no excuse for an accident. It is my fault for not making that crystal clear in the first place and allowing it to be misinterpreted by anyone. My apologies.
About the concussion, the Amtrak engineer did have a head wound that required 15 staples. That's a fact, and quoted by several reputable news sources. Doing a quick Google search did turn up that so far only the engineer's lawyer says the engineer suffered a concussion. So there's some wiggle room there if you believe that a lawyer would make up a medical condition, one that could be proved or disproved by the doctors that treated him at the time of his hospitalization immediately after the accident. Unless of course you think the doctors (who don't know the engineer from Adam) would cover for the engineer, too? Must all be part of the same political conspiracy...
BTW, speaking of dodging questions, you've been dodging the "political" question so much you might as well play center field in Los Angeles. So again, what are those politics that will keep him from being blamed? Because I would think that you would want to be just like this Amtrak engineer so you, too, could be blame-free for any accident you find yourself in. Who wouldn't?
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Post by atsfan on Feb 14, 2016 11:32:32 GMT -8
I am not going to waste any more of my time on this thread responding to ever changing definitions and reasons.
We know some want to excuse the engineer and say it wasn't his fault.
Fine. Whatever. Go right ahead.
We will see what the lawsuits come up with. We will see if a court and jury will allow someone to claim "I don't remember" and win the cases (civil cases; I predict their won't be any criminal case).
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Feb 16, 2016 15:49:35 GMT -8
1). My definitions & reasons never changed, it was instead the way you interpreted them (as I explained above). I'll take the hit for not being clear enough, but that's all I'll take a hit for.
2). I'm not excusing the engineer. My point has always been that we don't know if he's to blame.
3). Why bother with a court and jury? You've already convicted the engineer and sentenced him before the investigation has even been completed.
Hey, it'll be okay, atsfan. No need to worry about that court case. After all, "politics" will keep the engineer from being blamed, right? Tappity-tappity-tap...
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Post by valenciajim on Feb 16, 2016 17:00:28 GMT -8
I don't want to get caught in the crossfire here, but I remember a Saturday Night Live sketch with Steve Martin who said the two most powerful words are "I forgot!" He wanted to show an example of how powerful these two words were. In the next scene he appeared before the judge (who I think was John Belushi) and said, "Your Honor, I am sorry but I forgot....that it was illegal to rob a bank."
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Post by notabob on Feb 20, 2016 6:07:28 GMT -8
The only thing missing in this thread has been any mention of a Genesis-quality SD40-2, so here you go everyone, fixed.
The "politics" that everyone is tip-toeing/tap dancing/trying-to-pull-feet-back-out-of-their-mouth around is, of course, the all-powerful evil lobby of The Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers & Trainmen. Those ultra-powerful insiders that hold all the strings in Washington. Which is why, of course, Amtrak has been getting all that wonderful funding they desperately needed to upgrade their safety systems in a timely manner. Yep. Those evil manipulative train engineers...
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Post by mlehman on Feb 20, 2016 9:59:07 GMT -8
For sure. If it wasn't for those pesky unions, we could be enjoying the vast benefits of economic growth from the savings achieved by going back to link-and-pin couplers, brakes set from the roofwalks of cars as nature intended, and the fantastic "productivity" provided by 16-hour work days.
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Post by notabob on Feb 21, 2016 8:12:58 GMT -8
For sure. If it wasn't for those pesky unions, we could be enjoying the vast benefits of economic growth from the savings achieved by going back to link-and-pin couplers, brakes set from the roofwalks of cars as nature intended, and the fantastic "productivity" provided by 16-hour work days. Right. I watch enough Thomas these days to know that link & pin couplers work just fine and luckily, no one ever gets hurt. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2016 8:00:55 GMT -8
For sure. If it wasn't for those pesky unions, we could be enjoying the vast benefits of economic growth from the savings achieved by going back to link-and-pin couplers, brakes set from the roofwalks of cars as nature intended, and the fantastic "productivity" provided by 16-hour work days. As we know brother america was built on the backs of union labor without who we would be repressed today by the corporations, worse than 100 years ago. With these past battels won today the fight is progressive issues mainly equal pay, social justice, a living minimum wage and immigrant rights. |
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Feb 22, 2016 18:21:42 GMT -8
Getting free stuff from the evil people that make more money than I do....
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