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Post by calzephyr on Jan 26, 2016 12:31:09 GMT -8
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Post by atsfan on Jan 26, 2016 12:50:19 GMT -8
Politics will prevent the engineer from being blamed. |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Jan 26, 2016 16:27:53 GMT -8
Politics will prevent an engineer from being blamed? Since when? Heck, the guy's been on unpaid leave since the accident.
The fact is that it may not have been the engineer's fault. He was not drinking, using drugs, or on his cell phone. He was known to be a good engineer who loved his job and had a clean record. There were reports of people throwing rocks at trains that night. There was damage to the front windshield and a bump on the engineer's head. It's not unreasonable to assume he was incapacitated by either a possible rock strike or his possible reaction to it.
It's certainly possible that he forgot where he was. But it's also certainly possible that he was the innocent victim. It's no different from someone driving a bus approaching a curve and having someone throw a rock, break the windshield, and the driver's reaction (or injury to his forehead) results in the bus going straight off the road.
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Post by atsfan on Jan 26, 2016 16:41:29 GMT -8
Politics will prevent an engineer from being blamed? Since when? Heck, the guy's been on unpaid leave since the accident. The fact is that it may not have been the engineer's fault. He was not drinking, using drugs, or on his cell phone. He was known to be a good engineer who loved his job and had a clean record. There were reports of people throwing rocks at trains that night. There was damage to the front windshield and a bump on the engineer's head. It's not unreasonable to assume he was incapacitated by either a possible rock strike or his possible reaction to it. It's certainly possible that he forgot where he was. But it's also certainly possible that he was the innocent victim. It's no different from someone driving a bus approaching a curve and having someone throw a rock, break the windshield, and the driver's reaction (or injury to his forehead) results in the bus going straight off the road. Let's approach reality please. 1. Bump on his head? He derailed a train at 100mph or so and flew all over the place in the cab. Might that have anything to do with the bump? 2. Rocks? Nothing is confirmed. It is irrelevant anyway. The windshield can withstand a boulder and was not shattered etc. 3. The guy was smart pulling the Sgt Shultz. 4. He is simply untouchable due to his politics and his very visible political advocacy. 5. There is no evidence whatsoever that he slowed down in the curve. He was speeding and the train derailed. He should be in jail, not just on unpaid leave. 6. Amtrak invites this mess with it not having better systems, cameras (it is now installed after the deaths), and signals. 7. The $60 Garmin I own alerts me when I am speeding. Amtrak should have something more than that, but just blew it off. 8. Your bus scenario in this case is as plausible as aliens causing it. |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Jan 26, 2016 18:01:42 GMT -8
atsfan, Reality? 1). Yes, it's plausible that the bump on his head was caused by the accident. It's also equally plausible that it was caused prior to the accident. If you know which one is the case, please call the NTSB immediately because they don't know. 2). Yes, nothing is confirmed about the rock (if any). What is confirmed is that other engineers complained about rocks that very night in that very area. That's a fact. Also a fact is that the front windshield is broken/shattered. Was that caused by accident, or did it happen before the accident? Again, if you know which one, please call the NTSB immediately. Also, railroad windshields cannot withstand "boulders". If it could, it wouldn't be broken. 3). The guys is reported to be smart, yes. I didn't realize that being smart was the same as being guilty. Nor did I realize that either "pleading the 5th" (which he hasn't done; he's answered all questions asked by investigators) or claiming no memory of a situation equaled guilty, either. Do you know about traumatic brain injuries? A friend of mine was in a severe car wreck that resulted in a broken neck (among other problems). She thought it was Tuesday for 3 straight days. While otherwise fully recovered, 9 years later she still can't remember the accident. She doesn't even remember renting the car at the airport. She remembers flying, landing, getting her bags, then...nothing until waking up in the hospital days later. 4). Politics? What politics? What has he done that's been that visible? The only thing I've heard about is that he's posted in online railroad forums. Now I know that these kinds of places are full of scum and villainy, they aren't exactly hotbeds of politics. 5). There is evidence he slowed for the curve. Way too late, but the data recorder did show a reduction just before the accident. Did you actually read the article? 6). Amtrak has been chronically short funded. The ACSES system could have been installed before the accident if Congress had funded it sooner. 7). Let me know when your GPS works 100% of the time, in tunnels, under bridges, knows where other cars are compared to yours, and can stop your car when you get to close to another car. 8). I see. So people have never thrown rocks at cars on the highway? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_rock_throwingAnd there have never been accidents caused by rocks thrown at cars? www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1036942/Driver-killed-injured-pupils-throw-stones-cars-busy-dual-carriageway.html |
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Post by mlehman on Jan 27, 2016 0:43:45 GMT -8
Interesting article on Amtrak Train #188 wreck No blame has been assigned at this time?? Part of the issue may be that there really isn't anyone to blame sometimes. To do so under those circumstance would be an injustice on top of a tragedy. I noted shortly after the accident that the windshield was damaged, indicating there was the possibility of s reflex action of the engineer to that may have been a distraction that cause his loses of sitiatuiomnap awareneddd |
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Post by markfj on Jan 27, 2016 6:45:22 GMT -8
That was a very interesting read, thanks for posting the link.
Whenever a disaster happens, whether it be land, sea or air related, it seems everyone want to jump to the definitive “source cause” of the incident. Unfortunately, this accident is another example of just how difficult it is to find one reason or the proverbial smoking gun. At best, we’ll probably only know those factors that may have caused the incident, but a definitive answer will never come out. Just look at all the mitigating factors that led to the San Bernardino disaster in 1989. What really caused that accident: false/misleading bills of lading, faulty dynamic brakes on the helpers, or miscommunication among the train crew?
Thanks, Mark
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Post by atsfan on Jan 27, 2016 7:31:09 GMT -8
Interesting article on Amtrak Train #188 wreck No blame has been assigned at this time?? Part of the issue may be that there really isn't anyone to blame sometimes. To do so under those circumstance would be an injustice on top of a tragedy. I noted shortly after the accident that the windshield was damaged, indicating there was the possibility of s reflex action of the engineer to that may have been a distraction that cause his loses of sitiatuiomnap awareneddd This is absurd. A train derails going over 80mph. The windshield is damaged shockingly. Thus, it wasn't the engineers fault that he failed to slow down AT ALL for over one half mile to 50mph order because he was "distracted". By this logic, the guy who flew the Airbus into the Alps was "distracted" by a bird strike and lost his situational awareness. Why is this concluded? Because the planes wind shield in the wreckage was damaged. The lady who drove her car onto the sidewalk in Vegas? Distracted because someone threw a cigarette at her windshield. On and on. "There isn't anyone to blame" is why wrecks happen, and will continue to happen. There is no responsibility, no accountability, no fault. Everyone is a "victim". |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jan 27, 2016 7:45:31 GMT -8
Let's approach reality please. 1. Bump on his head? He derailed a train at 100mph or so and flew all over the place in the cab. Might that have anything to do with the bump? 2. Rocks? Nothing is confirmed. It is irrelevant anyway. The windshield can withstand a boulder and was not shattered etc. 3. The guy was smart pulling the Sgt Shultz. 4. He is simply untouchable due to his politics and his very visible political advocacy. 5. There is no evidence whatsoever that he slowed down in the curve. He was speeding and the train derailed. He should be in jail, not just on unpaid leave. 6. Amtrak invites this mess with it not having better systems, cameras (it is now installed after the deaths), and signals. 7. The $60 Garmin I own alerts me when I am speeding. Amtrak should have something more than that, but just blew it off. 8. Your bus scenario in this case is as plausible as aliens causing it. Spoken by someone who, it appears, has never logged an hour in a cab on the Corridor. Ever hear of ghetto grills? Even large scale disasters such as Tenerefe, AF447, and Chase were a series of failures, not the sole responsibility of one person. |
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Post by atsfan on Jan 27, 2016 10:32:17 GMT -8
The excuse for driving a train too fast:
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Jan 27, 2016 13:10:02 GMT -8
Ah, it's "Hang 'em High" atsfan. For the operator/driver/captain, it's always their fault, no matter the circumstances. If a concrete roof panel falls from a tunnel ceiling, lands on a car and kills a passenger, the driver of the car is to blame. If a German U-boat torpedoes a ship, the ship captain is to blame. If someone throws a rock at a train that breaks the front window and causes a head injury to the engineer which then causes an accident, the engineer is to blame.
Right. Gotcha. No excuses. He obviously should have been wearing a helmet with a full face shield.
And of course this engineer will "get away" with this because of his mysterious, unnamed politics. Just what are those, again? You've mentioned it a couple times, atsfan, and you've yet to explain what you mean by that. Is he a member of a secret order that has powerful tentacles wrapped about the power structure of our country? Is he...gasp...a Mason? Illuminati? Rotarian? Granger? Gozer Worshipper? Librarian? I just hope he's not a railfan, because you know what types of radical lunatics they are.
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Post by emd16645 on Jan 28, 2016 4:52:31 GMT -8
Unfortunately you will never get that answer from our resident troll. He's just acting out the usual troll behavior, make inflammatory statements with no basis in reality or fact, and then quietly disappear.
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Post by sd80macs on Jan 28, 2016 14:40:38 GMT -8
Politics will prevent an engineer from being blamed? Since when? Heck, the guy's been on unpaid leave since the accident. The fact is that it may not have been the engineer's fault. He was not drinking, using drugs, or on his cell phone. He was known to be a good engineer who loved his job and had a clean record. There were reports of people throwing rocks at trains that night. There was damage to the front windshield and a bump on the engineer's head. It's not unreasonable to assume he was incapacitated by either a possible rock strike or his possible reaction to it. It's certainly possible that he forgot where he was. But it's also certainly possible that he was the innocent victim. It's no different from someone driving a bus approaching a curve and having someone throw a rock, break the windshield, and the driver's reaction (or injury to his forehead) results in the bus going straight off the road. Let's approach reality please. 1. Bump on his head? He derailed a train at 100mph or so and flew all over the place in the cab. Might that have anything to do with the bump? 2. Rocks? Nothing is confirmed. It is irrelevant anyway. The windshield can withstand a boulder and was not shattered etc. 3. The guy was smart pulling the Sgt Shultz. 4. He is simply untouchable due to his politics and his very visible political advocacy. 5. There is no evidence whatsoever that he slowed down in the curve. He was speeding and the train derailed. He should be in jail, not just on unpaid leave. 6. Amtrak invites this mess with it not having better systems, cameras (it is now installed after the deaths), and signals. 7. The $60 Garmin I own alerts me when I am speeding. Amtrak should have something more than that, but just blew it off. 8. Your bus scenario in this case is as plausible as aliens causing it. Ah yes but what if Aliens DID cause it, think about it for a minute, LOL. |
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Post by atsfan on Jan 29, 2016 6:07:17 GMT -8
Unfortunately you will never get that answer from our resident troll. He's just acting out the usual troll behavior, make inflammatory statements with no basis in reality or fact, and then quietly disappear. Well I don't know who you are referring to. Certainly not me since all I am doing is stating the facts of the case completely based in reality or fact. If you have facts to counter anything, you should post those versus just name calling etc. The simple fact is the train sped into a curve at twice the posted speed with no brake application by the engineer. The windshield had some damage on it, AFTER the derailment, which was not punched through. There are zero "facts" that anything hit the train before the derailment, nor any injury to the engineer from it. It is also a fact that Amtrak simply blew off activating even the most basic of speed control devices on that track. Is that not based on reality or do you know of Amtrak having done that? It is also a fact that Politics of all sorts are and will enter into this case. No way they do not. |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Jan 29, 2016 7:49:04 GMT -8
atsfan,
As the saying goes, you're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.
You have no idea if the windshield damage was caused before or after the derailment. None. Why do I know this? Because even the NTSB doesn't know. It's in the article linked above. There was a brake application just before the accident. Again it's in the article. You're right there is no proof of a rock hitting the windshield, but there's no facts that say it didn't happen.
Amtrak has cab signals on the NEC. The PRR put cab signals on the NEC. They've had "basic speed control devices" on that stretch of track for decades, but it's based on track occupancy. The engineer is supposed to know when to slow down, which they've been doing since 1830. ACSES, which does more than just cab signals based on occupancy, had been installed just about everywhere else on the NEC, but that area was due to be installed by the end of 2015 (which has been done). Why hadn't it been done earlier? Especially considering that it's been in use East of New Haven since 1999? Because the US Congress wouldn't fund it fast enough.
I still don't how understand politics enters into this accident. The NTSB is notoriously non-political. They have to be. The only political problem is the lack of Amtrak funding that would have completed the ACSES installation before the accident occurred. But that still has nothing to do with the engineer's politics, which you've still yet to say what that is and what that means.
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Post by fr8kar on Jan 29, 2016 12:58:34 GMT -8
Let's approach reality please. 1. Bump on his head? He derailed a train at 100mph or so and flew all over the place in the cab. Might that have anything to do with the bump? 2. Rocks? Nothing is confirmed. It is irrelevant anyway. The windshield can withstand a boulder and was not shattered etc. 3. The guy was smart pulling the Sgt Shultz. 4. He is simply untouchable due to his politics and his very visible political advocacy. 5. There is no evidence whatsoever that he slowed down in the curve. He was speeding and the train derailed. He should be in jail, not just on unpaid leave. 6. Amtrak invites this mess with it not having better systems, cameras (it is now installed after the deaths), and signals. 7. The $60 Garmin I own alerts me when I am speeding. Amtrak should have something more than that, but just blew it off. 8. Your bus scenario in this case is as plausible as aliens causing it. |
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Post by atsfan on Feb 1, 2016 13:33:38 GMT -8
atsfan, As the saying goes, you're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. You have no idea if the windshield damage was caused before or after the derailment. None. Why do I know this? Because even the NTSB doesn't know. It's in the article linked above. There was a brake application just before the accident. Again it's in the article. You're right there is no proof of a rock hitting the windshield, but there's no facts that say it didn't happen. Amtrak has cab signals on the NEC. The PRR put cab signals on the NEC. They've had "basic speed control devices" on that stretch of track for decades, but it's based on track occupancy. The engineer is supposed to know when to slow down, which they've been doing since 1830. ACSES, which does more than just cab signals based on occupancy, had been installed just about everywhere else on the NEC, but that area was due to be installed by the end of 2015 (which has been done). Why hadn't it been done earlier? Especially considering that it's been in use East of New Haven since 1999? Because the US Congress wouldn't fund it fast enough. I still don't how understand politics enters into this accident. The NTSB is notoriously non-political. They have to be. The only political problem is the lack of Amtrak funding that would have completed the ACSES installation before the accident occurred. But that still has nothing to do with the engineer's politics, which you've still yet to say what that is and what that means. You have no facts. None. But you conclude your right. www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2016-02-01/ntsb-to-release-documents-in-amtrak-crash-investigationSo, there was a "small dent" in the windshield AFTER a 100 mph derailment. Fact. No "hole" and no evidence the engineer was magically hit in the head through the non broken windshield unless a Las Vegas magic act was trackside. FACT is he was ACCELERATING at twice the post 50mph speed limit ! So go ahead and keep pretending a fairy or aliens were somehow involved. If a driver sped into your car and killed your family, would you white wash that and make excuses and say "we may never know what happened" ? I guess that would be fine. The ridiculous lengths you and others here go to excuse a guy who killed innocent passengers and then insult anyone who says otherwise is staggering and amazing. |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Feb 1, 2016 14:26:24 GMT -8
Wow, you really can't wait to crucify this engineer, can you?
The article you linked to says nothing at all about the windshield, "small dent" or otherwise. Where's that quote from?
Yes, he was accelerating, but it's not a gas pedal, you know. He opened the throttle to accelerate to the speed limit. I know this may shock you, but engineers do that every time. He was supposed to close the throttle once he got near the speed limit. That didn't happen. The next question is why? Was he forgetful? Or was he distracted by a rock hitting his windshield and breaking it, just as had happened on the SEPTA train minutes earlier in the same area? I don't know. The NTSB doesn't know. You don't know, you just think you do.
About the rest, let me tell you a true event. A few years back, an 80-year-old lady dropped off her even older husband at the hardware store in the center of my town, then accelerated at full throttle around the town common/rotary and smashed into the Fire Station. She had suffered a massive heart attack and was dead at the scene. No one else was injured, but if she had wiped out some firemen, would you still blame her? She had no prior health problems like her husband had (that's why she was driving and he wasn't), she was just in her 80's and was still otherwise healthy. Was she still to blame for not predicting her own death?
And I'm still waiting to know about the Amtrak's engineer's mysterious "politics" that will keep him from being blamed for this. Why won't you answer this? You brought it up, so explain yourself or retract the statement.
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Feb 2, 2016 8:48:07 GMT -8
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Post by atsfan on Feb 2, 2016 9:58:26 GMT -8
www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/06/02/ntsb-report-amtrak-crash-philadelphia/28348719/In seven months the crack team at NTSB can't even do the 15 minutes of work it takes to do forensics on a phone and the carriers records. Yep, it takes 15 minutes to do that. Basically, in 7 months, the NTSB has put out a report that is no more detailed than the TV reports the night of the crash. The Engineer is smart to pull the Sgt. Schultz defense. He doesn't have much else to cling to. Will see how the lawsuits play out for the deaths and injuries. 
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Post by emd16645 on Feb 2, 2016 10:26:11 GMT -8
you missed the fact that the article you cited for your "proof" was written three weeks after the crash.
Good job.
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Post by roadkill on Feb 2, 2016 18:17:51 GMT -8
I would. "Blame" as it were is just determining a cause to an event, it's not pointing fingers and saying "You're bad, you killed people". If you're driving along down the freeway and a wheel flies off your car due to a mechanical failure do we not place "blame" on the failed part? SOMEBODY did something "wrong" to cause this derailment, it's just the way it is. It didn't "just happen", and logic states that the only one that could have caused this derailment is the engineer. Period. Aliens didn't do it, Elvis didn't do it, and so on. Whether or not the NTSB ever comes up with a cause is irrelevant, there can be only one cause. It's just plain simple logic. Did the engineer fail to slow his train before the curve? If the answer is "yes", which it clearly is, then there can be no other cause. Why he didn't slow his train is irrelevant, we know he did not. Simple logic. Things don't "just happen" for no reason.
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Feb 3, 2016 8:52:10 GMT -8
roadkill,
Just so we're clear, here's the definition of blame (from Merriam-Webster):
As a verb:
"To say or think that a person or thing is responsible for something bad that has happened."
1: to find fault with: censure
2a: to hold responsible
2b: to place responsibility for
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As a noun:
"Responsibility for something that fails or is wrong."
1: an expression of disapproval or reproach: censure
2a: a state of being blameworthy: culpability
2b (archaic): fault, sin
3: responsibility for something believed to deserve censure
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Using the word "blame" is not just determining a cause to an event, it is specifically defined as pointing a finger at someone (in this case) and expressing disapproval, reproach, and censure. It's saying that someone is culpable and responsible for something bad happening. It's literally the very definition of the word, "blame".
What you're thinking of is "cause" (which you used several times). Everything that goes wrong has a cause; a reason for happening. The lady who had a heart attack? The cause of her accident was her medical emergency, but she is not to blame: it's not her fault she died at he wheel. This Amtrak engineer? The reason for the accident is that he did not slow the train down in time for the curve. The question is whether or not he is to blame for that. I don't know, the NTSB doesn't know, and according to the engineer, even he doesn't know. But atsfan knows. Just ask him; atsfan must have been in the cab at the time, probably arguing over the engineer's mysterious politics that will keep the engineer from being blamed for this wreck.
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Post by mlehman on Feb 3, 2016 12:17:06 GMT -8
Finding cause is much more useful than fixing blame.
Even the NTSB is having trouble here. I'm certain that if there were obvious signs of a reason to fix blame, that would have been the result, that's low-hanging fruit in any accident investigation, as most railroaders will tell you.
As it is, there seems to be little to no evidence of blame and uncertain evidence of cause, other than that one can conclude that if PTC had been in effect on that stretch, people would be alive today and Mr. Bostian wouldn't be trapped in the psychological limbo of uncertainty, he'd be out there faithfully serving the public on the NEC like he was up to when things went pear-shaped.
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Post by canrailfan on Feb 3, 2016 12:56:27 GMT -8
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Post by atsfan on Feb 3, 2016 13:41:24 GMT -8
Amazingly after 7 months they still havent finished cell phone forensics. Anything using cellular is easy to figure out (calls, texts, email, app usage online) Offline usage for games etc is possible to figure out in some cases. Also depends whose phone is it? Does Amteak issue phones to engineeers or are they personal? All of this is a very quick process. After 7 months to still be working to figure it out is simply mind boggingly slow. |
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Post by atsfan on Feb 3, 2016 13:42:20 GMT -8
you missed the fact that the article you cited for your "proof" was written three weeks after the crash. Good job. The report cited came out Monday this week not last year. Please keep up with the story. Thank you |
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Post by atsfan on Feb 3, 2016 13:46:57 GMT -8
I would. "Blame" as it were is just determining a cause to an event, it's not pointing fingers and saying "You're bad, you killed people". If you're driving along down the freeway and a wheel flies off your car due to a mechanical failure do we not place "blame" on the failed part? SOMEBODY did something "wrong" to cause this derailment, it's just the way it is. It didn't "just happen", and logic states that the only one that could have caused this derailment is the engineer. Period. Aliens didn't do it, Elvis didn't do it, and so on. Whether or not the NTSB ever comes up with a cause is irrelevant, there can be only one cause. It's just plain simple logic. Did the engineer fail to slow his train before the curve? If the answer is "yes", which it clearly is, then there can be no other cause. Why he didn't slow his train is irrelevant, we know he did not. Simple logic. Things don't "just happen" for no reason. Even if your car's wheel flies off you are liable. You might be able to prove defects by suing the car maker, but good luck. In this wreck, the signals worked. The brakes worked. The weather was Ok (nevermind cab signals). No evidence at all of track problems. Windshield not punctured. Just a train accelerating into a curve at twice the posted 50 mph speed limit drvien by an engineer. |
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Post by atsfan on Feb 3, 2016 13:53:09 GMT -8
roadkill, Just so we're clear, here's the definition of blame (from Merriam-Webster): As a verb: "To say or think that a person or thing is responsible for something bad that has happened." 1: to find fault with: censure 2a: to hold responsible 2b: to place responsibility for --------------------------------- As a noun: "Responsibility for something that fails or is wrong." 1: an expression of disapproval or reproach: censure 2a: a state of being blameworthy: culpability 2b (archaic): fault, sin 3: responsibility for something believed to deserve censure --------------------------------- Using the word "blame" is not just determining a cause to an event, it is specifically defined as pointing a finger at someone (in this case) and expressing disapproval, reproach, and censure. It's saying that someone is culpable and responsible for something bad happening. It's literally the very definition of the word, "blame". What you're thinking of is "cause" (which you used several times). Everything that goes wrong has a cause; a reason for happening. The lady who had a heart attack? The cause of her accident was her medical emergency, but she is not to blame: it's not her fault she died at he wheel. This Amtrak engineer? The reason for the accident is that he did not slow the train down in time for the curve. The question is whether or not he is to blame for that. I don't know, the NTSB doesn't know, and according to the engineer, even he doesn't know. But atsfan knows. Just ask him; atsfan must have been in the cab at the time, probably arguing over the engineer's mysterious politics that will keep the engineer from being blamed for this wreck. Your dodging everything by clonging to dictionary definitions of multiple similar words. To make the point again to you, someday a guy will drive his car into your car with your family inside of iit at twice themposted speed limit. Your wife and kids are killed. The driver claims he doesnt know anything. The cops and insurance compaines say they dont know anything. And some guy on the internet will be trivilizing the whole thing and dismissing it by citing many defintions of cause, blame, effect, reason, etc etc. Meanwhile your family is dead. Your car destroyed. And your injured and in pain. But since nobody is to blame and nobody knows the cause, your SOL so deal with it and move on. That is the situation you defend |
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Post by emd16645 on Feb 3, 2016 14:31:56 GMT -8
you missed the fact that the article you cited for your "proof" was written three weeks after the crash. Good job. The report cited came out Monday this week not last year. Please keep up with the story. Thank you Exactly. So why are you dragging up articles almost a year old to try to defend your baseless accusations? You cited the article, not me. |
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